Jehovah`s Witness/Micah 5:2

Advertisement


Question
QUESTION: Hello Sister T, when I quoted that verse I used the NW translation. I was interested in what 'time indefinite' meant. In the King James they use the term everlasting or from eternity. Is this what from time indefinite means? That's what I wanted to know, not your opinion of how Jesus was a created being.  Here's the definition of the  word for eternal of forever from the Strong's dictionary from Micah 5:2.


always, ancient time, any more, continuance, eternal, for, everlasting, long time,
Or lolam {o-lawm'}; from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind #past or future#, i.e. #practically# eternity; frequentatively, adverbial #especially with prepositional prefix# always -- alway#-s#, ancient #time#, any more, continuance, eternal, #for, #n-##ever#-lasting, -more, of old#, lasting, long #time#, #of# old #time#, perpetual, at any time, #beginning of the# world #+ without end#. Compare netsach, ad.


Since you love to quote Col. 1:15, can you explain the word firstborn to me? Because that same word is used elsewhere in the bible referring to people that weren't the firstborn or created in the family. I believe David was called first born, when he was clearly not the eldest son.

Kevin

ANSWER: Hello Kevin,

Well I see that you are back again and you refuse to accept what the Bible says, do you even care what the Bible says Kevin, or are you stuck in a tunnel?  You are getting a bit desperate here I see and it's not cute! I may start to reject you....but we'll see...

You just want to make this be about your false beliefs.  And I'm sorry to inform you but the Bible scriptures that speak of Jesus being created is NOT MY OPINION, it's the fact of Scripture, and all scriptures are inspired of God (2 Tim. 3:16).  The Bible says Jesus is a created being.  He's of creation, he is begotten, he is a son that was born, you think God can be born?  Do you honestly think a God can be Almighty if he was born, begotten, died, and was lower than the angels?  Do you think God can be a corresponding ransom to Adam?  Meaning he was exactly as Adam was?  No part of God is ever less than Almighty or lower than angels, as we humans are...

1 Tim 2:5-6 "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, a man, Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all—[this is] what is to be witnessed to at its own particular times."

What does time indefinite mean, it means time indefinite or forever....you can't pick out one sentence of a scripture to try and prove Jesus has always been here.  Because the Bible says he was created, that he was brought forth.  

Prov. 8:23-28 (KJV) "I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:..."

This is speaking about Jesus when he was created, before everything else, when he was brought forth, when he was SET UP from everlasting, because we don't know how long Jesus was with Jehovah before other spirit beings or the earth and other things were created.  But you see it shows he was speaking about someone else (Jehovah)and being there with him.  Jesus says, he was set up, so that means someone else had to set him up, someone else had to bring him forth.

If the estimates of modern-day scientists as to the age of the physical universe are anywhere near correct, Jesus’ existence as a spirit creature began thousands of millions of years prior to the creation of the first human.  So yes, from times indefinite was his origin! But he still had an origin or beginning, he was still set up and still brought forth.

You still are disregarding the sentence before that one in Micah 5:2 (NIV)

“But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans[b] of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times.”

Micah 5:2  (ESV) "But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days."

Micah 5:2 (CEB)  "As for you, Bethlehem of Ephrathah, though you are the least significant of Judah’s forces, one who is to be a ruler in Israel on my behalf will come out from you. His origin is from remote times, from ancient days."

I do know that you who believe in the Trinity say that JW's don't even understand it.  Guess what, news flash, what's to understand about a lie?  If anyone claims that Jesus is Jehovah, that Jesus is the Almighty God, it's a lie, so just because you want to explain why you believe Jesus is Almighty, doesn't make it so.  No matter what or how the Trinity is explained away, it still boils down to the fact that you believe Jesus is God Almighty and that is lie.  So who cares about the complete and total meaning of it. I'm not interested in the teachings of demons!  

1 Tim. 4:1(KJV) "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; 2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;"

Your conscience is seared with a hot iron!!

As I demonstrated once before, showing me a 100 dollar bill in Monopoly money doesn't make it real because you point out to me where all the words are written and say it's real, so what, that still doesn't make it a real $100 dollar bill...and just because you claim we don't understand the Trinity, still doesn't make it the truth according to the Bible...it's a false lie!  No matter how many sentences you pull out of context, there are too many scriptures in context that prove otherwise!  

Now, this is talking about Jehovah, see the difference.

Psalms 90:2 (KJV) "Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God."

Jesus said he was brought forth before the mountains, and the earth, he said he was there with someone else.  But we see Jehovah here in Ps. 90:2, was not brought forth, but from everlasting to everlasting....he is God.  PERIOD! There is no "bringing forth" of Jehovah, there is no "setting up" of Jehovah, there is no, "I was there when he" with Jehovah.

The Son’s share in the creative works, however, did not make him a co-Creator with his Father. The power for creation came from God through his holy spirit, or active force. (Ge 1:2; Ps 33:6) And since Jehovah is the Source of all life, all animate creation, visible and invisible, owes its life to him. (Ps 36:9) Rather than a co-Creator, then, the Son was the agent or instrumentality through whom Jehovah, the Creator, worked. Jesus himself credited God with the creation, as do all the Scriptures. Mt 19:4-6





The firstborn is primarily the oldest son of a father (rather than the firstborn of the mother), the beginning of the father’s generative power (De 21:17)

In Psalm 89 Jehovah refers to “David my servant” and reviews the covenant for the kingdom that was made with him. In the midst of this is the statement: “I myself shall place him as firstborn, the most high of the kings of the earth.” (Ps 89:20, 27) David was not a firstborn son. (1Ch 2:13-15) So it seems that Jehovah was referring prophetically to the one foreshadowed by David, God’s own “firstborn” Son in heaven upon whom He confers kingship more exalted than that of any human ruler. Compare Eze 34:24, where Messiah is spoken of as “my servant David.”

Jesus Christ is shown to be “the firstborn of all creation” as well as “the firstborn from the dead” not merely most distinguished in relation to those created or those resurrected but the first one actually created and the first raised from the dead to endless life. (Col 1:15, 18; Re 1:5; 3:14) On earth he was the firstborn child of Mary and was presented at the temple in accordance with Jehovah’s law. (Lu 2:7, 22, 23) The apostle Paul speaks of the followers of Jesus Christ who have been enrolled in the heavens as “the congregation of the firstborn,” the first ones accepted by God as sons on the basis of their faith in Jesus’ sacrifice and the first of Christ’s followers to be resurrected with no need to die again. Heb 12:23.

At Job 18:13 the expression “firstborn of death” is used to denote the most deadly of diseases.

Now I'll let you use your brain, although I know you won't because it's seared, soooo...until the next silly question you pull out of context, ado...if I don't reject it...




Sister T


jw.org




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi Sister T.  I thought I was being polite in that last question.
Why all the hostility towards me? I don't agree with your beliefs either, but I don't go around saying your spreading lies or that you're going to hell. I'm not the one who will be judging you! Again, if Jehovah  wants to destroy me for using common sense,so be it. I'm not too worried. I look forward to Paradise death.

Firstly my JW co-worker told me that every single word in the  bible is true. If this is the case, how can picking out one thing be wrong or taken out of context?  Besides that, you should know that the word eternal or everlasting is often used to describe Jesus( not my opinion, it's in God's word, the holy bible). I'm not only able to find one example of this. I just chose to ask about one inparticular.

Secondly, When my Jw co-worker first began his studies, he asked me to show him in the bible where it says Jesus is God. All I can say is John 1:1 - The word was God. Those are God's words, not mine or my opinion. Can't get any clearer than that.

Can you show me an example where the word created or made was used to describe Jesus?  The bible used the word  'made' to describe Adam after all.

One more thing I'm curious about.  Why did the Pharisees want to kill Jesus. Not for His works they said, but because He claimed to be the Son of God, thus making Himself equal to God  in their eyes. How does being the Son of God make Him equal to God in their eyes?Just wondering, haven't read or heard anything about this.

Please don't reject me Sister T.  Kevin

ANSWER: Hello Kevin,

I thought I was being polite in my response, why all the lies towards my God Jehovah and his anointed one Jesus Christ?  If you don't agree then why ask me questions, believe whatever you want to Kevin, I'm not stopping you.  

That's because I'm not spreading lies and I can't go to hell because it doesn't exist!

Now, if you keep believing those false lies Kevin all you have to look forward to is death.  No paradise for you, sorry, and there is no paradise death.  You aren't going to heaven, and you aren't going to be on the paradise earth, so that leaves you where?  No where....unless you accept the truth as laid out in the Bible, but you refuse.  

Yes the Bible is true and in harmony, so you want to actually say context means nothing?  Is that what you are telling me? please don't try to pull that silliness with me, we are both adults I would hope, and for you to say what you just said makes me not want to even answer anything else from you. 2 Cor. 4:4 is in full affect here with you.  It's a shame that you spend your time trying to prove a lie, and yes, that's right I called your belief a LIE...a BIG FAT LIE, THE BIGGEST LIE THAT WAS EVER TOLD TYPE LIE!!!  Now how about that!  Your smooth demeanor means nothing, Satan is a smooth talker too...what of it?  Gen. 3:1,

John 1:1 also says the Word was with God too....so you can't be God and With God at the same time...the same person who wrote John 1:1 also wrote John 1:18 that no man has seen God at anytime...again just because you want to take the Bible out of context doesn't prove you are correct, you are wrong, period.  You can't get any clearer then context....as I said before the Bible does not contradict itself, Jesus is not Jehovah and Jehovah did not change his name to Jesus.  Ex 3:15 clearly says, Jehovah is God's name forever....there's your forever.

The Bible used the word 'created' to describe Adam because Adam was created or made...

The Bible says

Rev. 4:11 “You are worthy, Jehovah, even our God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, because you created all things, and because of your will they existed and were created.”

No one can will themselves into existence, all things were created INCLUDING Jesus because of Jehovah's will.  The Bible clearly says "because you created ALL things"  it didn't say, you created all things except your son Jesus cause he's Almighty God too.

Speaking of Jehovah again:

Isa 40:25,26, "But to whom can ​YOU​ people liken me so that I should be made his equal?” says the Holy One. 26“Raise ​YOUR​ eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing."

So we can CLEARLY see that Jehovah said who can they liken him that he should be made their equal, meaning he has no equal. He didn't say, my only equal is my son Jesus. And aren't you leaving out the Holy Spirit?  Yep...unreal.

John 10:33-35 "The Jews answered him: “We are stoning you, not for a fine work, but for blasphemy, even because you, although being a man, make yourself a god.” 34 Jesus answered them: “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I said: “YOU are gods”’? 35 If he called ‘gods’ those against whom the word of God came, and yet the Scripture cannot be nullified, 36 do YOU say to me whom the Father sanctified and dispatched into the world, ‘You blaspheme,’ because I said, I am God’s Son?"

So you said "How does being the Son of God make Him equal to God in their eyes"  As we can see from Scripture they lied on him, because Jesus never claimed to be God.  He said he was God's son...and he never said any different, and if Jesus was God, how come they knew he wasn't and why they wanted to stone him because they knew he wasn't Jehovah, because they knew who Jehovah was and they knew Jehovah is not a man.  You contradict yourself.

Numbers 23:19 (KJV) "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?"

Can you read that...GOD IS NOT A MAN...NEITHER THE SON OF MAN!!!  HELLO!!!  

Plus Jesus never made himself equal to God, ever!  The Bible was written as an example for us, to show us wrong things and right things, and the view of those religious leaders back there was wrong, that's why Jesus called them hypocrites, offspring of vipers, and said their father was the devil (Matt 3:7; Mt 12:34; 23:33; John 8:44)

Rev. 3:14 "And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,"

John 3:16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his only‐begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life."

See that Jesus was begotten, created by God....rip all those out your Bible now since you refuse to believe the Bible, only keep the parts that you think go along with your false beliefs which contradict other verses.

John 8:28 "Therefore Jesus said: “When once ​YOU​ have lifted up the Son of man, then ​YOU​ will know that I am [he], and that I do nothing of my own initiative; but just as the Father taught me I speak these things"

Rip this one out too.

So you're trying to tell me that Almighty God can't do anything of his own initiative right?  yeah ok...keep on...

Phil. 2:5-7 "Keep this mental attitude in ​YOU​ that was also in Christ Jesus,6who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God.7 No, but he emptied himself and took a slave’s form and came to be in the likeness of men"

Rip this one out too...

Well, if you can't understand this Bible scripture, I'm sorry for you, it clearly tells us that Jesus gave no consideration to being equal to God, meaning he never tried to be equal to God, as you see it says NO, but he emptied himself....

John 17:3 "This means everlasting life, their taking in knowledge of you, the only true God, and of the one whom you sent forth, Jesus Christ"

More rip outs...there are tons more, you might as well just burn your whole Bible...huh?

Jesus himself called his Father the ONLY TRUE GOD...so that is all I have time for ...good bye


Sister T

jw.org






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: John  5:18 Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.    

This was the verse that I had the question about


Kevin

Answer
Hello Kevin,

The religious leaders of Jesus' day told lies on him and falsely accused him.  They said the miracles he performed were by means of Satan...(Mt 10:25; 12:24-29; Mr 3:22-27; Lu 11:15-19)

John 5:19 after their incorrect reasonings, Jesus goes on to clear up that incorrect thinking by saying this:

John 5:19 "Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to ​YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner."

1 Cor. 11:3 "But I want ​YOU​ to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God"

Matt 27:46 "About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: ​“E′li,​ ​E′li,​ ​la′ma​ ​sa‧bach‧tha′ni?”​ that is, “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”"

John 8:17,18 "Also, in ​YOUR​ own Law it is written, ‘The witness of two men is true.’18 I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Father who sent me bears witness about me.”

Jesus must be separate from Jehovah. How else could they be viewed as two witnesses?

John 3:18 "He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only‐begotten Son of God."

John 6:38 "because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me"

Luke 3:21,22 "Now when all the people were baptized, Jesus also was baptized and, as he was praying, the heaven was opened up 22 and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: “You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.”

1 John 4:9,10 "By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only‐begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.10The love is in this respect, not that we have loved God, but that he loved us and sent forth his Son as a propitiatory sacrifice for our sins."

John 12:28,  "Father, glorify your name.” Therefore a voice came out of heaven: “I both glorified [it] and will glorify [it] again.  

John 12:49,50 "because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. 50 Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them].”

Luke 9:18-20 "Later, while he was praying alone, the disciples came together to him, and he questioned them, saying: “Who are the crowds saying that I am?”19 In reply they said: “John the Baptist; but others, E‧li′jah, and still others, that one of the ancient prophets has risen.” 20 Then he said to them: “YOU, though, who do ​YOU​ say I am?” Peter said in reply: “The Christ of God."

Matt 4:10 "Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”

1 Cor. 8:4-6 "Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one. 5 For even though there are those who are called “gods,” whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him."

Matt 26:39 "And going a little way forward, he fell upon his face, praying and saying: “My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass away from me. Yet, not as I will, but as you will.”

Matt 20:20-23 "Then the mother of the sons of Zeb′e‧dee approached him with her sons, doing obeisance and asking for something from him. 21 He said to her: “What do you want?” She said to him: “Give the word that these my two sons may sit down, one at your right hand and one at your left, in your kingdom.” 22 Jesus said in answer: “YOU​ men do not know what ​YOU​ are asking for. Can ​YOU​ drink the cup that I am about to drink?” They said to him: “We can.” 23 He said to them: “YOU​ will indeed drink my cup, but this sitting down at my right hand and at my left is not mine to give, but it belongs to those for whom it has been prepared by my Father.”

John 14:28, RS: “[Jesus said:] If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.”

1 Cor. 15:27, 28 RS: “‘God has put all things in subjection under his [Jesus’] feet.’ But when it says, ‘All things are put in subjection under him,’ it is plain that he is excepted who put all things under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one.”

1 Pet. 1:3, RS: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ!”

John 20:17 "Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and ​YOUR​ Father and to my God and ​YOUR​ God.’"

Rev. 3:12 "“‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine."

Romans 15:6 "that with one accord ​YOU​ may with one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ."

2 Cor. 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of tender mercies and the God of all comfort,"

Eph 1:3 "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for he has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in union with Christ"

Mark 12:29 "Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah"

Too many scriptures disprove that Jesus is Almighty God...Jesus clearly had a God, and his name is Jehovah.

Sister T

jw.org  

Jehovah`s Witness

All Answers


Answers by Expert:


Ask Experts

Volunteer


Sister T

Expertise

Please click here--> For your Free Home Bible Study

I can answer questions related to Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible. I love learning the truth from the Bible and helping others to learn that truth as well. I don't know everything but will answer from the Bible, I like to use illustrations as well to help a person relate to what is being said. The Bible has the last say so over any person.

Experience

I am an active baptized Jehovah's Witness and Jehovah is Almighty God,(Ps. 83:18) and his Son Jesus Christ died so that everyone exercising faith in him may not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). I support my fellow Witnesses on this board who are real, and Jehovah's worldwide visible organization, including the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. As God is not a God of disorder, and there could not be order if there were not ones to take the lead. Taking the lead and having a leader is not the same, our leader is Jesus Christ, and in order to have unity and order, there has to be arrangements in place. As the first century Christians had, there were men taking the lead, (Acts 6:1-6) as with Moses, (Exodus 18:21) and in our day, in following with Bible truths, we do the same. When people twist that around to us worshiping men, it is just a straight out lie! Why would the Scripture at 1 Tim. 3:1-10, 12, 13 give the criteria for men reaching out for an office of overseer if that was not meant to be? (Phil 1:1, Acts 20:17, 28, Eph. 4:11, 12, 2 Cor. 3:4-6). If we were not supposed to have men who take the lead, why was this scripture penned? James 5:14-15 "Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him, greasing [him] with oil in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him."

Organizations
If you have legit questions and want to know the truth, please ask, but if you are here to spread your lies and twists of the scriptures or get your falsehoods out, you may get rejected! The truth is from the Bible, if what you say does not harmonize with the Bible then what you say is wrong! Context and other scriptures help determine scriptures that may stump us, let scripture interpret scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself, so if what you are being taught or if what you are teaching makes it seem like the Bible is contradictory, remember it's not the Bible it's the man-made teaching! Doctrines of men! Mark 7:6, 7 "He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with [their] lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men." (also Romans 10:2, 3)

Education/Credentials
Matthew 24:14 says "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." We are doing that today, we are living in times of Bible Prophecy and as a Jehovah's Witness, we have the privilege to be apart of a prophecy spoken by Jesus himself! The good news of the Kingdom. Ask yourself, what kingdom? then read Daniel 2:44! It's a real government. Take heed now! Listening to men over God will mean your life.(Prov 3:5,6, Ps. 146:3) A lie will never become truth, No matter how long or how many people say it or speak it. Learn what the Bible really teaches, seek out Jehovah's ways, serving God in truth is only acceptable to him,(John 4:23, 24) you can not be serving God acceptably if what you believe is a lie! Pray for understanding and ask Jehovah to search your heart and draw you! (John 6:44, 65) Now is the time to be with the people who are called by Jehovah's name! (Acts 15:14, 17, Isa. 43:7, 10, Zech 8:23)

©2016 About.com. All rights reserved.