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Jehovah`s Witness/WT quote re the 12 tribes of Israel!

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QUESTION: Hi Derrick hope all well ! Ive just responded further in my discussion with Grunbaum sharing with him more contradictions !

You see the place the event of Rev 11: 15 in 1914 yet it say when the seventh trumpet blast ...

But the also teach that the seventh trunpet blast was fulfilled by conventions held from 1922 - 1928

So if the svent trumpet blast ended starting in 1922 ending in 19128 then God kingdom in Rev 11: 15 could only have been fullfilled in 1928 according to their time line !

I would like to see how Grunbaum spin his way out of that one !

Now what it seems the WTS speaks out of both sides of their mouths as the JW try to deny the reak meaning of Israel yet commenting on Matt 29 : 18 and Luke 22: 30 they said this !

At Matt 19: 28 amd Luke 22: 30 we are told they will judge over the twelve tribes of Israel! Whom do the 12 tribes in the context picture? They represent those with an earthly hope those who put faith in Jesus sacrifice but are not included in the royal priestly class!

So they cant say it spiritual since it will look foolish to say the 144 000 which is spiritual Israel will judge spiritual Israel

So according to them the twelve tribes are both

Spiritual Israel

The great crowd those with an earthly hope !

ANSWER: Good evening, Johan.  How are you?

Yeah, I would like to see myself, how he will answer the contradiction here.  Probably by attacking you for even having the nerve to even FIND a contradiction in their teachings.  I have noticed a trend that seems to keep repeating itself...When a person points out a discrepancy, just tell them they are full of demons, and blame the "demonic churches of christendom" for it.  In other words...Don't answer the question or resolve the issue.  Just attack, attack, attack.

So pathetic!

I myself have been kept quite busy in this "Spiritual Israel vs. REAL Israel" discussion, and it has been occupying a great deal of time.  But I will watch the board, and see how he answers your question about the contradictions.

Take care, and God bless.


Derrick

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks Derrick for the follow up! With my reading glasses on today I note I made a pretty lot of spelling errors! LOL!


As you can witness  in his response he had no answer to what I posted and the more he brings up the more the flow of contradictions will come and Im not done yet!  

Now he refers one to a video and try to get around the notion that when the Bible says the New Jerusalem is coming down from heaven that even if it means alas WT doctrine (when they cant even walk a straight line or make up their mind whether the N J is Gods wife or Jesus wife as the quotes shared showed) re the 144 000 it does not mean that they are coming down from heaven ! You see they have to rewrite the Bible that coming down does not mean coming down !

It just amazes me that one cannot see to what depths JW must go to rewrite the Word of God to suit ones doctrine!

Shalom and keep up the good fight for the Lord!

ANSWER: Yeah, it kind of reminds me of the Scripture that aptly describes WT interpretations of the Scriptures....

Ephesians 4:14-  "That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive"

You never know what something is going to mean from one day to the next.  I am not the least bit surprised that "coming down" doesn't mean "coming down" to them, because when I was discussing on the bodily resurrection of Christ, we learned from them then that "this" does not mean "this", and "it" does not mean "it".  

And another questioner had the distressing experience of learning from them, in regards to John 2:19, that the word "I" does not really mean "I".  So, I can't say I'm surprised by your experience either.

Just keep preaching the Word, and exposing that which is false, Brother.  God bless.

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: I noticed just now to a repsonse he gave to a questioner, he gave a reference yesterday in the Chicago press  that the NWT is the best out of 52 Bibles !
But what caugth my eye is this

>>>>1951 <<<<<<

Do you Grunbaunm can scan us a copy of the Old and New Testament cover of the NWT of 1951 However  I am awhere of a Greek translation but it was only a complete translation in 1961 ! At t6he same tme I wonder if Mr Grunbaun would still considder the greek text of that year so great since it has been revised and according to  1951 version it says Jesus is to be worshipped! That years version had more of a different Jesus than the one we see today !


Shalom and keep well

Answer
Yes, that is true about the NWT not actually being a complete translation at that time.  Furthermore, his "fact" that he listed is also quite misleading, as it was discussing only a SMALL portion of verses, based on the assumption that the Westcott/Hort text was the most accurate, which it is NOT.  It has nothing to do with which translation is actually the best, or the worst.  If the King James Bible was in agreement with the corrupt Westcott/Hort text, I would get rid of it and find one that wasn't in agreement with that text.  

I was amused that Grunbaum called himself a "Bible scholar", when he is nothing of the sort.  I wonder how he would explain that the Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts (the main basis for the Westcott/Hort text) have over 5,000 disagreements with EACH OTHER, and over 3,000 in the 4 Gospels alone.  

Bottom line...He is again talking about something that he doesn't know what he is talking about.  Nothing new there.

Check this link out, because there is actually more to the story than what he told the questioner....


http://www.forananswer.org/Top_JW/Scholars%20and%20NWT.htm#E.C. Colwell  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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