Jehovah`s Witness/Why does the apostles never mention the FDS..?
QUESTION: Brendon the WTS focus a lot on the identity of the Faithful and discreet slave by quoting Matt 24: 45 giving themselves all the credit limiting as per current teaching to the Governing body after a fourth change re the identity of the FDS!
Now my questions to you is :
1)Why does the apostles never mention the FDS in their letters if they were really as important in their time as your leaders want to imply?
2)Where do they ever say the FDS are the governing body?
3If the FDS as per current teaching are the Governing body and are so important where were they when the Bible was canonized ?
ANSWER: Greetings again Johan
Thank you for your questions
Based on the previous experience I am going to request more information from you please, so that I know exactly what it is you are wanting to know
Your first comments
Brendon the WTS focus a lot on the identity of the Faithful and discreet slave by quoting Matt 24: 45 giving themselves all the credit limiting as per current teaching to the Governing body after a fourth change re the identity of the FDS!
You say “... the WTS focus a lot on the identity of the Faithful and discreet slave...” What do you call a lot of focus? I have not as yet seen any change in understanding of the Matt. 24:45. You evidently have seen something That I have not caught up with yet A reference would be nice.
Your first question
(1)Why does the apostles never mention the FDS in their letters if they were really as important in their time as your leaders want to imply?
This seems to be implying to me that you are saying that the WTS has taught or implied that FDS was an important part of first century Christian “teaching”. Is that what you are saying?
Your second question
(2)Where do they ever say the FDS are the governing body?
Who is the “they” in your question?
Your third question
(3) If the FDS as per current teaching are the Governing body and are so important where were they when the Bible was canonized ?
I assume that question somehow relates to the previous ones, but I really do not know what it is you are asking, and how is all that relevant to today?
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QUESTION: Tx for answering Brendon!
I find it odd that everytime I put questions to you that you keep telling me you cant understand what I ask of you when my questions are quite very simple or plain language !
Before I go on will you so kind to edit your warning section in your profile section re the date March 2015!
You as ask re my claim re"focus a lot on the identity of the FDS"
Here are some quotes to show you how important they claim they are :
1)But Jehovah God has also provided his organization , his FDS made up of anointed ones , to Christians in all nations to understand and apply properly the Bible in their lives. Unless we are in touch with this channel of communication that God is using we will not progress along the road to lifE no matter how much Bible reading we do! WT 12/01/1981 .P.27
2)We need to obey the FDS to have Jehovah,s approval WT Nov 15 20011 p. 24
3)The anointed and their other sheep companions recognize that by following the lead of the "modern day "governing body they are in fact following their leader Christ WT 15 /09/2010 p. 23
4)The FDS and discreet slave has abundant credentials.Following is a partial list of scriptural and prophetic designations applying or being or being represented in the remnant of Jesus Christ anointed followers the the noble year in 1919 WT 01/03/1981 P.27
I can quote WT after WT just to share the importance re their identity , their importance etc ! In fact your salvation is being determined by whether you associated with them to !You cannot they say prgress along the road to life no matter how much Bible reading you do they said!
I asked you simple questions I cant see why you cannot grasp what I am asking !
The WT says that one generation of succeeding FDS was feeding the next generation of succeeding generation since the first century !
Beginning at pentecost 33 AD and continuing through the 19 centuries since then the slavelike congregation has been feeding its member spiritually doing so faithfully and discreetly! WT March 1981 p.24
You ask me who is the they !
It can only be the Governing body I am referring to. Are you telling me that you are not aware of the latest WT change re the identity of the FDS that they now teach that FDS are limited to only the governing body ! Are you denying it and are you denying that their any changes are currently going on?
Now will you be so kind to answer my other questions please?
ANSWER: Hello again Johan,
First thank you for pointing out the wrong date I had on the profile page. I am dyslexic and make a lot of mistakes and rely on my word processor spell-checker to correct them. However if something is spelled correctly (but the wrong word) or a number the spell checker does not tell me.
Why I ask for clarification?
Past experience in answering you, I have had to assume what you mean. Often I am wrong. So instead of assuming it is better to ask questions.
I also gather from your grammar, it appears to me, that English may not be
your first language. I find the way you phrase your words can be confusing. Just as an example in Question 2 you asked Where do they ever say the FDS are the governing body?...? I asked you to clarify the "they" In return you make the following comment
"...You ask me who is the they it can only be the Governing body I am referring to...."
Now I will tell you why I asked. The use of "they" in the second question I understood you to be referring to the apostles
. The apostles seemed the be the focus of your attention in the first question
"...Why does (does = bad English grammar in this sentence) the apostles
never mention the FDS in their letters if they
were really as important in their time as your leaders want to imply?..."
So when you mentioned "they" in the second question I assumed you were referring to the apostles. There was the possibility you may have meant the FDS by the use of "they" I understood the "they" both sentences more than likely refereed to the apostles . So I had 2 ways of trying to formulate an answer, I could have spent my time discussing the apostles or FDS.
Question 3 you ask about some thing that I do not know of. "...the FDS as per current teaching are the Governing body..." You may have some information on that, that I do not have. The understanding I have
is that the Governing Body are a representative
group of the FBS and not the FDS. You may have read something that I have not yet seen.
Now, you have all the material on hand from the WTBTS. If you read what they have published you will find the answer. It seems to me that perhaps you do not understand what you are reading, or, you are selectively reading only the portions you want to read, and ask questions in order to make me slip up. That is the impression I get from your questions and responses to my replies Why should I be doing homework when you have the material on hand? I am happy to look things up for people that do not have access to our library.
You have the 1981 watchtower. Read it carefully. It answers some of your questions.
THE ‘FAITHFUL SLAVE’ DISAPPEARS FROM CLEAR VIEW
This clear identity of the “faithful and discreet slave” class was not to continue all through the centuries until the return of the Master with his kingly power. The apostles warned that a great apostasy would develop after their death and would continue until Christ’s presence. (2 Thess. 2:1-12; Acts 20:29, 30; 1 John 2:18, 22; 4:2, 3
) Jesus also indicated this in his parable of the ‘wheat and the weeds.’ According to this illustration, fine seed, wheat, was planted in the world field. The “wheat” are “the sons of the kingdom,” or true anointed disciples of Jesus Christ. However, an “enemy” (the Devil) was represented as sowing “weeds” (“the sons of the wicked one,” or false Christians) among the “wheat,” and both were to grow together until the “harvest.”—Matt. 13:24-30, 36-43
The apostasy developed with the bringing in of heathen philosophy and false doctrines. More and more, the apostate congregation became a part of this world, adopting its teachings, customs and attitudes. Jesus foretold that both the “wheat” and the “weeds” would grow together until the “harvest,” or “conclusion of the system of things,” when the “wheat” (true Christians) would be separated from the “weeds” (false Christians) and would let their spiritual light shine. (Matt. 13:30, 39-43
) Thus the identity of the “faithful and discreet slave” class would not again become clear until the time for Christ Jesus to return.
At that time, Jesus’ faithful disciples would come into clear view. Their well-fed spiritual condition would harmonize with the prophecy of Daniel, which foretold that at the “time of the end” those having insight would shine like the stars, would enjoy increased Scriptural knowledge and understanding and would bring many to righteousness. (Dan. 12:3, 4, 9, 10
) This indicates that the congregation of Christ’s anointed disciples, those having insight, would be watching for the Master’s return and be found faithfully providing spiritual food at the proper time when he returned.—Matt. 24:43-46
THE ‘FAITHFUL SLAVE’ IDENTIFIED BY ITS ACTIVITY
Though the “weeds” dominated the world’s religious scene through the centuries, some “wheat” was active and spiritual food was provided for the “domestics.” By the early 1870’s there was a group of sincere Bible students sufficiently well fed spiritually to be in expectation of the Lord’s return and to realize the need for thorough study of the Scriptures so as to be prepared. Their unsectarian search of the Bible produced an abundance of knowledge.
During those years, the churches of Christendom were bound by the traditions, dogmas and ceremonies stemming from the great apostasy. They clung to such false doctrines as the Trinity, immortality of the soul and a burning hell. Also, they were part of this world. Skepticism as to the Bible was infiltrating their theological seminaries. Darwin’s theory of evolution was being pitted against the Bible’s creation account, applied psychology was rejecting the teaching of inherent sin and the need for a ransom, and the whole field of higher criticism was attacking the divine authorship and infallibility of the Scriptures.
Amid all of this, the Bible Students (as Jehovah’s Witnesses then were known) were standing as strong advocates of Bible teaching. They held Scripturally that there is one Almighty God and Creator, Jehovah, and that Christ Jesus is his only-begotten Son and first creation, whom God sent to the earth to offer his life as a ransom for sinful humankind. They took up the fight to defend the entire Bible as God’s infallible, inspired Word and published the results of their Biblical study as “food at the proper time,” thus sharing this vital information with all desiring to be prepared for the Lord’s return. The Bible Students made known the true Christian teaching that the human soul is mortal and the hope for the dead is the resurrection. They pointed out that the purpose of Christ’s ransom is not only to pave the way for the 144,000 to be redeemed from the earth so as to be joint heirs with Christ in the heavens but also to give the rest of Adam’s offspring opportunity to gain everlasting life on earth during the 1,000-year Messianic Kingdom reign. Also, they proclaimed to the world that the end of “the appointed times of the nations” would come in 1914. (Luke 21:24
) This faith-strengthening restoration of Bible truths and the urgings to wakefulness regarding the presence of Christ Jesus resulted in the gathering together and building up of a congregation of anointed disciples of Christ who displayed evidence of being well fed spiritually.
I will not knowingly be drawn into an argument. I am happy to debate, a theological idea, but not argue. If someone who has no idea of the concept of the FDS asks me a question I will answer. You seem to have all the information I have, so do your own research. The answers are there to be found.
I will not speculate on questions that have no relevance. If you want to ask a relevant, serious and sincere QUESTION that is not designed to be an argument, I am willing to engage in a reply.
it is the case you really do not comprehend what that article is saying
and how it answers some of your questions, I will explain it for you.
Since I posted the reply, I have been thinking about your first question about the apostles and the FDS, If I understand you correctly you were asking why the apostle such as Paul, Peter, Jude and John never mentioned the FDS in their writings to the other congregation. That is because Jesus in his illustration was not referring to their day but to a later time period, the period at the end of the “time of the nations” when Jesus would be turning his attention to the earth, the time of the harvest (Matt 13:23-30
and verse 39
“ and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things” NWT.)
Said in peace
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QUESTION: Tx Brendon again for answering!
Their is golden rule Ive discovered when it comes to the WT leaders !
THEY ALWAYS SPEAKS OUT OF BOTH SIDES OF THEIR MOUTHS , IT CALLED DOUBLETALK !
I perfectly understands what the article is saying , that is insactly what this article proofs when speaking about the apostasy !
On the one hand they say :
The clear identity of the FDS was not to continue all through the centuries until the return of the master with his kingly power !
They repeated something in a similar line in 1995/15/ 05 P.16 reminding folks of what was said : In this regard the book God,s Kingdom of a thousand years has approached " As to just how the FDS has existed and served down through the centuries after the death down trough the centuries after the death of the apostles of the master Jesus Christ we we do not have a distinct historical picture .Apparently one generation of slave class fed the next succeeding generation thereof!
But on the other hand they also say :
Beginning with Pentecost 33 Ce and CONTINUING THROUGH THE 19 CENTURIES SINCE THEN the slave like congregation has been feeding its members spiritually faithfully and discreetly !
You see Brendon on the one hand they want to prove their was a FDS class while at the same time they want to claim they dont know who it was , yet when I asked you why dont the apostles never mention them in their letters , why are they not involved in the canon of the Bible then there is some sort of misunderstanding !
The WT leaders want to maintain an authority over the lives of millions of people yet they want to prove their was a FDS class in the first century , while at the same time they cannot prove their is distinct historical picture . yet they then take a great leap and make these fantastic claims such as this :
As Jehovah has revealed his truths by means of the first century Christian congregation .Through this agency his having carried out PROPHESYING on an intensified and unparalleled scale.All this activity is no accident,Jehovah is the one behind it all .The abundant of spiritual food and the AMAZING DETAILS OF Jehovahs purposes that have been revealed to Jehovahs anointed ones are clear evidence of that they are the ones mentioned by Jesus when he foretold a faithful and discreet class that would be used to dispense God,s progressive revelations in these last days WT June 15 1964 p. 354
You claim you not aware of the latest change which was revealed at the yearly annual meeting regarding the role of the GB and the FDS last year in October ?
LADDER OF AUTHORITY
Charles Taze Russel
FDS REPRESENTED by the Governing body
In 2009 they start to make changes
Governing body the FDS
Great crowd and anointed ones
The WTS has been changing this teaching over the years
In 1881 it was all the anointed
In 1920 it was Charles taze Russel
In 1930 it was the Watchtower
In 1932 the Remnant
In 1981 spirit anointed ones
In 2001 anointed followers
In 2009 Governing body
The WTS has not given a full detailed outline over this change yet but will do so over the comings months that is why a month after the annual meeting they published this in Nov .Those at the meeting revealed the change before the WTS started to publish a part of waht is to come on their website !
The FDS was appointed over Jesus domestics in 1919 .The slave is the SMALL composite group of brothers serving at world headquaters DURING CHRIST PRESENCE who are directly involved in directing and dispensing spiritual food.When this group work together as the Governing body,they act as the FDS! JW.ORG 10 Nov
Keep well Brendon
I gather from the things that you have said that you have been upset changes in what is understood by different Bible passages, and in particular the identity of the FDS. </>IF</b> you once were a JW, are you upset by changes? That is the impression you have given me.
IF you are upset by changes
then it would appear to me, from experience I have had over the years, that you were / are looking to men for salvation and not Jehovah through his son Jesus. Any JW
that believes the organisation will save them, that is a fool. No man alive, or organisation can ever give anyone salvation. However we must belong
to an organised group.
Any one wanting to serve God in the way that is acceptable to him should be a part of an organised group. That is shown by the fact that in the first century the Christians were organised with pointed men to “shepherd the flock”.
As “shepherds” they have a responsibility to do what is right. We have the responsibility to obey them Hebrews 13:17
“Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among YOU and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over YOUR souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to YOU.”
That obedience is still relative. Our obedience is not all inclusive. Gods commands come first.
As for me I have a determination to serve Jehovah the best I can regardless of the mistakes and imperfect actions of anyone that is in a position of authority.
The men that have appointed themselves as the GB are as imperfect as any other man, they have and will make mistakes. I prefer to follow the principle of Jehovah as stated at Psalm 130:3
“..if errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?”.... Jehovah does not look at mistakes that we make. He does judge us by our attitude toward making mistakes and if we are willing to
accept council and change
The men that male up the GB, I would hope, accepted that assignment with the knowledge that they are responsible before Jehovah for what ever they say and do. They stand condemned if they fail in their responsibilities just as in Jesus' parable of the the “faithful steward” as recorded by Luke
in Chapter 12:41-48
at the end of that parable are, what I consider in this regard, the most important “... Indeed, everyone to whom much was given
, much will be demanded of him
; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him
.”. -- I understand that the word “they” in the above refers to Jehovah and Jesus, so that Jehovah and Jesus will demand
more of who ever it is that is to be the “faithful steward”. That by extension applies to anyone one that has a position of responsibility. The more responsibility one has, the more accountable they are .
When Jesus was showing that the New Commandment was more than just action (as was the Law code of Moses), but ones attitude, he tells us we are all accountable before the highest court in the universe for for attitudes ( See Matthew 5:21, 22
I also keep in mind what Paul wrote to the Philippians
in chapter 2:12
“ ...keep working out YOUR own salvation with fear and trembling;..” We are ultimately responsible for the decisions we make, no one else.
Just because we are ultimately responsible for our selves, does not dissolve those in positions of “authority” or “oversight” from doing their job. If they fail to shepherd they are held accountable.
In Matthews account of the faithful steward “slave” Jesus posed the question but never answered it Matthew 24:45
“ ...who really is the faithful and discreet slave ...” No wonder there has been changes in the understanding