Jehovah`s Witness/Is Benyamin prophesying? (aka Prophet Daniel)
Helllooooooo Brother Derrick!
Hope all is well with you.
What an interesting read today. I looked at the web address, just to make sure I did not accidentally log on to a Harold Camping website. Sure enough, I am in the right place.
What I am referring to is a post by Mr Benyamin Grunbaum.
Here is the link:
Where should I begin?
It seems the "spiritual giant" Daniel has found himself in uncharted territory. This is nothing like past events, when relatives pass away, or his father, or grandmother. No! No way would he show enough emotion to shed tears at their funerals. This is big time!
Daniel and other JWs have done what Jesus SAID NO-ONE could do but Jehovah. They have determined the timing of the end. Isnt that fabulous?
Sorry, because this is where my sarcasm ends.....
Daniel, as misguided and lost as he may be, is still a role model for certain JW readers. Did he learn nothing from the WT history? Does he not see how extremely dangerous this can be? What separates him from Harold Camping?
And in his emotional state, his (cry out for Jesus moment), here is what he proclaims.
""""Anyone else reading this if you are not converted to our way of thinking you only have a small window of time the Kingdom hall doors as slowly closing in that when the door is closed no man can open it and you will find yourself in the great tribulation."""""
That statement sums up quite a bit, dont you think?
King James Version (KJV)
9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
Well, there you have it. October 8th, 2014.
Daniel and his brothers have the date all figured out. If Jesus only had them around, He could have known also.(my sarcasm has crept back in)
At least he ended it on a loving note. Maybe he will continue this loving notion through Oct 2014?
I think Ole Daniel was throwing a little love your way Mr.D!
Hello Kevin, how are you today? Man, I was wondering if you ever even READ the forum anymore. Where you been?
You know, I read the writings from Mr. Stewart and Mr. Grunbaum, and I have to say that this was one of the most interesting posts I have ever read on this forum….by any expert, on any subject. I cannot believe how blown up this 2014 thing has gotten, in just a couple months.
Like I told someone else who wrote me as well, my thoughts and emotions changed drastically from the beginning of the writings, to the end of Grunbaum’s reply. Let me just address that part first….
As for his apology, I am not his judge. He gave a general apology to those whom he has “debated” and “disagreed” with, and it is no secret that one of those people is me. There have been others as well, but I dare say my back and forths with him, have been the most extensive. So for my part, I thank him for his apology, and accept it in the spirit it was offered. As I told another questioner, I will give him the benefit of the doubt for his intentions. In reading his reply several times, I honestly think the guy is fully convinced of the rightness of his speculations regarding 1914, and somehow, it brought out some emotion and humanity in him that seems to have been buried deep for quite awhile.
That being said, I feel the need to address some of the statements made by both Mr. Grunbaum, and this Stewart guy. These statements are not designed to be attacks against anyone, but merely to illustrate the severe problems I see with what they are doing.
A few months back, this was simply being advanced as a “possibility” or an “idea to consider”. Readers were told not to take it as a certainty, and not to “get stupid” about it. But the trend as of late, seems to be to “get stupid” about it. That is not an insult…I am merely using their own words. I admit I have watched this with great interest, at how the various ones are approaching this. It seems Mr. Grunbaum and this Stewart guy, are the most convinced, while DW doesn’t seem to want to state his view, and dodges the question each time its sent to him. But to tell you the truth, I have to admit that DW’s approach is probably the best one, in that he is not going over-board with it, as of yet.
Now, I see several flaws with Mr. Stewart’s reasoning. I can understand a person WANTING the end of this wicked system to come. I know I sure do. But the problem is when they get an idea in their head, and then try to make the Bible validate it. I guess they have forgotten all the previous dates which were supposedly on a “solid foundation”, but proved to be complete failures.
It also seems they have learned nothing from Harold Camping, and his predictions of the rapture to happen in May, 2011. I have heard the WT talk about their past mistakes, and then claim that they were “humble enough to correct them”. Well, at least Mr. Camping has “humbled” himself, and admitted he was wrong, and was deceived….
The sad part is, and I say this with no ill will, but these 2 men have appropriated the title “Prophet” to themselves. Mr. Selinski dropped the term in his last writing, which is good. But Mr. Stewart applies it to himself, as well. When the prediction comes to naught, they need to be honest enough to place the word “false” in front of it, if they still want to refer to themselves as such.
Here is the problem with Mr. Stewart’s comments. He gives us a very nice list of detailed reasons WHY Jesus’ statement means the exact opposite of what He said.
I am referring to this statement from Mr. Stewart:
“Now I read this board daily and I can understand the sceptics not believing based on the scripture
(Matthew 24:36) . . .Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father.
In my studies of this verse in Jewish law actually Jesus is telling us the date is as you said Oct or feast of trumpets,as a Hebrew scholar when you came up with oct 8th 2014 did you consider this verse.”
Yes, Mr. Stewart, it is true that we do not believe you have figured out the time for the end, because the Bible says you wouldn’t. Nowhere does the Scripture say or indicate that we ever will, or that this information will be revealed. Not to you, not to Mr. Grunbaum, not to the Watchtower Society, not to anyone.
And after saying he can understand why we would say this, Mr. Stewart then says this:
“In my studies of this verse in Jewish law actually Jesus is telling us the date is as you said Oct or feast of trumpets,as a Hebrew scholar when you came up with oct 8th 2014 did you consider this verse.”
Let me make sure I have gotten this straight…Jesus is telling us the date, by telling us we DON’T KNOW the date??
Mr. Stewart is, in effect, saying that Jesus was actually TELLING US WHEN the end would be, by telling us “no one knows” when it will be.
Does anyone besides me, see the problem with that?
Actually, there are several problems with this. First, the context of Matthew 24 is key. Jesus was not speaking in some in-depth mystery, about the Feast of Trumpets, lighting fires, or anything else. He was ANSWERING THE QUESTION, asked back in verse 3.…
“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what [shall be] the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?”
At that point, Jesus began to give a long discourse, on the signs that they should look for, to know His return was night. Not once did He ever indicate they would know the exact time, but only the “season”, as indicated by the signs.
Mr. Stewart states: “When he says you won’t know the day or the hour, he’s literally saying it’s the Feast of Trumpets because that was known as the feast where no one knew the day or the hour that it would begin.”
No, Mr. Stewart, when Jesus says that no one knows the day nor the hour, He is literally saying that no one knows the day nor the hour.
You can try to connect that to some similarity with the Feast of Trumpets all you want to, but Jesus wasn’t indicating anything even close to that. He was telling them they would NOT know the exact timing, but they could be prepared by observing the signs that would happen just before His coming. There is no invitation here whatsoever, to set a date or even a MONTH for His return.
Sometimes you have to ask yourselves how the words came across to their original hearers, and how THEY understood them, to get a better feel of what was said. Is there any indication that when Jesus uttered the words “but of that day and hour knoweth no [man]”, the hearers immediately got a sly grin on their face, and thought….”Ah yes, Jesus is telling us that it will happen at the Feast of Trumpets in 2014”?
Maybe they just understood that they were not to know the exact timing, but could know it was getting close, by the signs that Jesus gave?
Furthermore, why did Jesus spend an entire chapter, giving them sign, after sign, after sign, when all He had to do was to tell them WHEN it was going to happen? That would sort of defeat the purpose of giving them signs to watch for, would it not? Giving them signs to look for, would make MUCH more sense, in light of telling them that “no one knows the day nor the hour”, but here is what they could look for, to prepare themselves.
There are so many things wrong with this line of thinking, that I could not possibly cover them in one writing. It completely ignores the fact that the early disciples, including the Apostle Paul himself, believed that Jesus’ return would happen in HIS lifetime. Apparently, they didn’t know, and didn’t claim to know the exact date. But we are to believe that Jehovah God has given this information to Mr. Stewart and Mr. Grunbaum, and revealed it through an Organization that has never gotten one date right, as of yet?
But perhaps the most damaging point of all, is that which is found in examining the passage on the “faithful and discreet slave”, which is also found in Matthew 24, the chapter under discussion.
Let’s look at it:
Matthew 24:45-50- “Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Blessed [is] that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
And shall begin to smite [his] fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for [him], and in an hour that he is not aware of,”
Now, here’s the thing….The Watchtower teaches currently, that the GB is the “slave” mentioned in this passage. Now of course, they are not. But for the sake of this point, let’s assume that they are. If they are, then they STILL will not know the exact time of the coming of Christ, because verse 48 speaks of the “slave” becoming evil, because the “slave” mistakenly thought that the Lord was DELAYING His coming….PROVING that he never knew when it was to begin with! If he had known in the first place, then he would not have made the mistake of speculating that the coming was delayed!
Now, what of the preceding verses, 42-44?
“Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.”
What feast are THESE verses tied into, Mr. Stewart? Perhaps when Jesus said to “watch”, because you don’t know the hour, He was actually TELLING them the hour? Then why be on “watch” before that time?
And what about where He clearly says in verse 44, that the Son of Man is coming when they THINK NOT? Is this not a clear indictment against those who presume to know when it will be?
Is this the kind of thinking that comes from the notion that no one on the outside of the Organization can understand even the simplest passage of Scripture, and that only the Organization can interpret the Scriptures? To the point where your claim to be the only ones with Scriptural understanding, means that you have the authority to claim the passages mean the exact OPPOSITE of what they obviously say, and everyone is supposed to just go along with it?
Everything in the Scriptures indicates that we are to simply be Christians, watching, waiting, and praying for our Lord’s coming….not trying to convince people that we have figured out when it is.
I think some verses of Scripture are in order for these men, as they have literally tens or hundreds of thousands of people reading this board, and some actually follow their every word.
Matthew 18:6-7- “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!”
Luke 6:39- “And he spake a parable unto them, Can the blind lead the blind? shall they not both fall into the ditch?”
Hebrews 13:17- “Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account”
Romans 2:23-24- “Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?
For the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles through you, as it is written.”
1 Peter 5:2-3- “Feed the flock of God which is among you, taking the oversight [thereof], not by constraint, but willingly; not for filthy lucre, but of a ready mind;
Neither as being lords over [God's] heritage, but being ensamples to the flock.”
What you guys are doing, is serious business. And your stepping outside of the Scripture, and “going beyond the things written”, is something that you should really think long and hard about.
Kevin, you mentioned a couple of things here:
YOU: “It seems the "spiritual giant" Daniel has found himself in uncharted territory. This is nothing like past events, when relatives pass away, or his father, or grandmother. No! No way would he show enough emotion to shed tears at their funerals. This is big time!”
REPLY: You know, I read that one and honestly felt pity for the man. No matter my relationship with a family member, I cannot fathom not being sad enough to shed a tear at a relative’s funeral…especially if I did not have the certainty of their good standing with Christ. I remember just over 2 years ago, I had an uncle to pass away suddenly. We were not especially close, as I may have seen him once a year, or so. But when he died, I had no assurance of his spiritual standing, and it was all I could do to remain composed long enough to preach his funeral. The night before, I remember looking at his body in the casket, and wondering about his standing with God. I could not stand up there when I preached his funeral, and tell anyone that I had assurance that he left this world in a good standing with His Maker. I could only give the Gospel to those who were there, and share some memories. My point is, even though we were not necessarily close, he was family. And it hurt to lose a family member, without that assurance.
I honestly suspect that Daniel has sacrificed much for this religion, including family relationships. I think he has put all his hope in it being right, and I truly pity him for that. That’s just my take. Beyond that, I don’t really even know what to say about a statement like what he made.
YOU: “ Daniel and other JWs have done what Jesus SAID NO-ONE could do but Jehovah. They have determined the timing of the end. Isnt that fabulous?
Sorry, because this is where my sarcasm ends..…”
REPLY: The problem is, there are weaker-minded people who are not grounded in the Scriptures, who look up to these guys as “spiritual giants” and place them on a pedestal. And when they something of this magnitude, it causes those who follow them to fear, and believe something that is outside of the Scriptures.
No, they have not figured out anything regarding the timing of the end. And they are not going to. No doubt they are zealous for that time to come, but that does not justify speculating on when it is, when thousands of people are reading. There is a serious accountability these men will have for doing this.
YOU: “Anyone else reading this if you are not converted to our way of thinking you only have a small window of time the Kingdom hall doors as slowly closing in that when the door is closed no man can open it and you will find yourself in the great tribulation."""""
That statement sums up quite a bit, dont you think?”
REPLY: You know, that statement right there, is probably the one that jumped out at me the most. Telling people that they had better come around to “our way of thinking”? Really? Uh, who are they, but mere men?
Where does the Bible say that we have to come around to someone’s thinking, in order to be saved? No, the Bible teaches that we must come to CHRIST JESUS, to be saved. Not to their way of thinking, the Kingdom Hall, or anywhere else other than Jesus Christ!
Both of these men, who I am sure are very sincere, said that they “fell down in tears and cried”. Gentlemen, this will happen to you both again one day, if you don’t stop going beyond the Scriptures, with your predictions that God has not shown you.
Once again, I am very happy to see the humility that was shown by Mr. Grunbaum in his apology and acknowledgment to those whom he has offended. That was the right thing to do, and I certainly hold no ill-will or hard feelings towards him. That being said, these men are doing something that the Scriptures warn us NOT to do.
There have been those in cults who do this, and there have also been those in Christianity who have done this. And in all cases, the term “false prophet” is well-deserved, because Jesus never taught for us to speculate or claim to know what cannot be known.
He DID tell us to watch, and to wait, and to serve Him daily until that time comes. That is what I choose to do.