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Jehovah`s Witness/Continue - the apostles not mentioning the FDS..!

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Tx again for answering my previous question !

I have never been a JW ! I am a former atheist, now born again Christian, but had an uncle in the org who left his church and became a JW and I saw what your religion did to his family !   

By citing Heb 13 : 7  you only proof to me what we know all along that:

The leaders have prematurely seized control for themselves and consolidated that control.The 2012 version of the doctrine leaves Christians uncared for between 33 Ad and 1919  and elevates the exclusivity and importance of the governing body.This is in total contrast to the parable which at this time indicates that the
elders should be shepherds to the congregations.

One would expect the definition for you as one of JW is a person that worships Jehovah.However when reading what you have to say the defining concept of being a JW is not worship of Jehovah , but rather following the FDS!!In a Judicial committee the foremost question is not whether a person believes the Bible or worships Jehovah , but rather whether they believe God is using the Watchtower,s FDS in our day?? If you as a JW believes in the Bible and Jehovah , you will be disfellowshipped as an apostate if you openly confess that the WT leaders do not represent Jehovah,s slave!!    

What your leaders have sucessfuly done as the Governing body is they have deflected your attention from Jesus by telling you that Jesus is the mediator for the FDS class alone that salvation can only be achieved "being associated with the slave class"  as you yourself  just confirmed ! That is not a Biblical teaching , it is a lie !

Can you show me a scripture where it says that Jesus is only the mediator for the FDS class ,that your salvation is determined by your association with them?

Rather than drawing people to Jesus the Governing body misapply the parable of the FDS to direct attention to themselves , in fact they have even claimed and never changed the teaching that FDS is the Christ class! (If you want the quotes let me know) inserting their authority between God and men!

With this they are neglecting Jesus altogether. Taking a look at next months WT April 1 2013 WT an image which appears of the earthly organization does not have Jesus at all ,but has the Governing body directly beneath God!   

The GB misuses the application to tell JW like you that beyond them the Bible is not understandable in spite of the fact they changed who they say the FDS is!

Then they say :

Without the assistance of the FDS we would "neither understand" the full import of what we read in Gods word nor" how to apply it"  Examining the scriptures daily  2012 March 4     

By reading your post it seems you have never asked yourself :

1)Whether the Bible alone has provided us with God,s requirement !

2)Whether they have gone beyond the words of Jesus!

3)Where God have given these men the authority to create a sin only to change it into a conscience matter later at the cost of thousands of JW losing friends over the years or been disfellowshipped over something that was never a sin to begin with?

The Bible does not teach any doctrine AT ALL re the identity FDS that is the main reason why you see them , the apostles never  mentioning it all in their letters to the congregations  however the Bible tells us

To conclude for you the MAJOR problem here which you fail to see re the latest change re the identity of the FDS:

By their latest change they are admitting they were wrong for over 130 years since the existence of your org , that means that your leaders have been teaching a false indentification for the FDS for over 130 years!This while they convinced millions of JW that God has REVEALED the truth to only them!   

If JW will only follow the counsel :

Do not put your trust in nobles , nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs .Ps 146  : 3

The true authority is :

But I want YOU to know that head of every man is the Christ and the head of every woman is the man and in turn of Christ is God! 1 Cor 11: 3

Answer
Hello again Johan

First I take exception to what you implied about your uncles family.  You implied that by his becoming a JW the “religion” did something to his family. I have never seen the “religion” do anything to a family.  I have seen family members do things to their families. Most times it is the non JWs that causes the disruption, and occasionally it is the JW for not following Bible principles that disrupts the family, it is never the religion.  Families are extremely important and we are taught that from the Bible and are taught to do all that is possible to keep the family together.

Jesus said that when people decide to follow him they can expect to loses fleshly family but in association with fellow delivers who chose to follow him they will gain family. (Matthew 19:29 “And everyone that has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands for the sake of my name will receive many times more and will inherit everlasting life.) “  To be a follower of the Christ means sacrifice.  Worship to the almighty comes above all other things, including family.  Adam showed that.  Instead of staying steadfast to the only “do not” law imposed on him, he chose his wife over obedience to God, the result, we are all dying.  Jehovah says “To obey is better than a sacrifice.” 1 Samuel 15:22 ( “We must obey God as ruler rather than men.” Acts 5:29 NWT)

Paul in council to the Corinthians wrote  “12 But to the others I say, yes, I, not the Lord: If any brother has an unbelieving wife, and yet she is agreeable to dwelling with him, let him not leave her; 13 and a woman who has an unbelieving husband, and yet he is agreeable to dwelling with her, let her not leave her husband.14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified in relation to [his] wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified in relation to the brother; otherwise, YOUR children would really be unclean, but now they are holy.15bBut if the unbelieving one proceeds to depart, let him depart; a brother or a sister is not in servitude under such circumstances, but God has called YOU to peace.16 For, wife, how do you know but that you will save [your] husband? Or, husband, how do you know but that you will save [your] wife? 1 Corinthians 7:12-16  The believing one is admonished to stay with the unbeliever. According to that text it is up to the unbeliever to leave the marriage. The believer should stay.  

Where families have broken down when one member becomes a JW it is generally  the intolerance of the family members that causes the problem.  The teachings of the Bible as JWs are taught to apply them bring families together.  When the families are not brought together  it is the fault of the individuals, the JW for not applying what the Bible says and / or, the intolerance of non believing  family members.

What did you mean by “...One would expect the definition for you as one of JW is a person that worships Jehovah....”?

What did I write that gave you the impression “.... being a JW is not worship of Jehovah , but rather following the FDS....”  I was quite explicit in saying  “..Any JW that believes the organisation will save them, is a fool. No man alive, or organisation can ever give anyone salvation.  However we must belong to an organised group.”

We are taught that our salvation does NOT originate or rely upon the “organisation”.  Our salvation is  personal between us as individuals and our creator.  I demonstrated that with Philippians 2:12

The  first century Christians set the example of being organised.  A Christian belonged to a group of individuals that followed what the Christ taught and worshipped the God of the Christ , the same God as Abraham Isaac and Jacob, and were organised into congregations,  Greek ekklesia, King James Church

They had appointed men (Acts 14:23 ) that displayed the spiritual qualities as outlined by Paul in 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1 .  These men were charged with the responsibility of shepherding the flock.  Hebrews 13:17 is quite clear here it is from the KJV “  Obey them that have the rule over you , and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.”

Not applying that is going against what God has directed.

The first century Christians were told to obey those in the congregation that “rule”  the Greek word here literally means “those who lead” or “those that have authority” referring to the appointed men in the congregations.  I also said “...That obedience is still relative. Our obedience is not all inclusive. Gods commands come first.    ..”  

So how on earth could you come to the conclusion that “...   when reading what you  (me) have to say the defining concept of being a JW is not worship of Jehovah...”  Our salvation is possible only on the basis of faith in the value of the sacrifice of Jesus’ human life. But our lives must be consistent with the faith that we profess.  

I know of no JW that views the GB as “our leaders” in the sense you try to imply.  ALL JWs are taught to examine what is taught by the Bible.  There have been changes in thought over the decade that I can recall.  When scriptural reasons have been given for the changes I can follow the reasoning’s.  There have been times when I disagree with the the reasoning’s given, but I never get up set over any of them, nor will I try to convince anyone else that what I understand is the correct way.

There are basic Bible truths that define JWs.  We are the only group that on a global scale are preaching the message Jesus preached.  The Kingdom of God.  The good news of the Christ is all about the kingdom of God, as Jesus is the central par of that kingdom.   We put the God that Jesus worshiped in first place, not the organisation as you keep trying to claim by using quotes out of context.  (the context is ALL that we teach not just a few lines or paragraphs in a particular book/ magazine that you may quote from)  Basic Bible truths are,  God has a name, His son, or Lord is a created being, there is no trinity,  no Hell fire, no immortal soul, what Gods purpose is for the earth, who go to heaven and why,  what is required for salvation.   Using just the Bible   (and not the NWT)  and no commentaries from any source,  I have proved to myself those basic undeniable truths.   

Then there are understandings – things that can not be 100% proved, but all the known evidence seems to point to a given conclusion.  As new evidence is found the conclusions can and should change, as is evident by the unfolding of understandings in the first century Christian community  

Is the GB the FDS?  The Bible does not provide a direct  answer so it is an understanding

So yes I also said they were self appointed men.  They have and will make mistakes and that is their problem not mine.  Peter denied Jesus when Jesus needed him most, of all the apostles he should have known better than to go along with racial discrimination between Jews and non Jews.  What the GB think of themselves is of no concern to me. That is between them and God.   I will repeat in part what I said before

Quote
“ ...The men that have appointed themselves as the GB are as imperfect as any other man, they have and will make mistakes.  I prefer to follow the principle of Jehovah as stated at Psalm 130:3 “..if errors were what you watch, O Jah, O Jehovah, who could stand?”....  Jehovah does not look at mistakes that we make.  He does judge us by our attitude toward making mistakes and if we are willing to accept council and change .  ... They stand condemned if they fail in their responsibilities just as in Jesus' parable of the the “faithful steward” as recorded by Luke in Chapter 12:41-48 at the end of that parable are, what I consider in this regard, the most important “... Indeed, everyone to whom much was given , much will be demanded of him ; and the one whom people put in charge of much, they will demand more than usual of him .”.  --  I understand that the word “they” in the above refers to Jehovah and Jesus, so that Jehovah and Jesus will demand more of who ever it is that is to be the “faithful steward”.  That by extension applies to anyone one that has a position of responsibility. The more responsibility one has, the more accountable they are . .. “  end quote

On Jesus being the mediator …

You said
quote
What your leaders have sucessfuly done as the Governing body is they have deflected your attention from Jesus by telling you that Jesus is the mediator for the FDS class alone that salvation can only be achieved "being associated with the slave class"  as you yourself  just confirmed ! That is not a Biblical teaching , it is a lie !
End quote

Unfortunately you do not see the full picture which means that the statements you make are missleading to readers

Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant , that is between God and the  “Israel of God”  
“‘a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for special possession” (1 Peter 2:9  NWT).  Go read my posts on that subject a few weeks ago.  I do not see my self as part of the Israel of God, but, as in ancient times I see myself as a proselyte .  The proselytes had the benefited of the old law covenant but were not included in it,  When Moses mediated the law covenant with Israel, it was between God and the descendants of Jacob the Israelites. The vast mixed crowed that were with them that came out of Egypt were not included in the covenant , only the Israelites were.  However the mixed crowed benefited by the arrangement.

Jesus is the mediator for all mankind who want to approach God in prayer... “Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6 (NWT)

In the first century, the Christians were not left to their own individual devices as to what to believe.  They were  “persuaded” to believe in the Christ. See the examples as per the King James Bible where Paul “persuades” is audience in the things of the Christ, and admits he was “persuaded” to believe. The word highlighted in each text is the Greek word  “peitho” a primary verb meaning “ to convince (by argument, true or false); by analogy, to pacify or conciliate (by other fair means); reflexively or passively, to assent (to evidence or authority), to rely (by inward certainty):— agree, assure, believe, have confidence, be (wax) conflent, make friend, obey, persuade, trust, yield.” - Strongs Lexicon

Ac 13:43  Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded <3982> them to continue in the grace of God.

Ac 17:4   And some of them believed <3982>, and consorted with Paul and Silas; and of the devout Greeks a great multitude, and of the chief women not a few.

Acts 18:4    And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and persuaded <3982> the Jews and the Greeks.

Ac 19:8   And he went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading <3982> the things concerning the kingdom of God.

Ac 19:26   Moreover ye see and hear, that not alone at Ephesus, but almost throughout all Asia, this Paul hath persuaded <3982> and turned away much people, saying that they be no gods, which are made with hands:

Ac 26:28   Then Agrippa said unto Paul, Almost thou persuadest <3982> me to be a Christian.

Ac 28:23   And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading <3982> them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.

Ac 28:24   And some believed <3982> the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

Ro 2:8   But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey <3982> unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

2Co 5:11   Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade <3982> men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.

2Ti 1:5   When I call to remembrance the unfeigned faith that is in thee, which dwelt first in thy grandmother Lois, and thy mother Eunice; and I am persuaded <3982> that in thee also.

2Ti 1:12   For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded <3982> that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Heb 6:9   But, beloved, we are persuaded <3982> better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

The first century Christians were persuaded to believe. They did not come to a knowledge of Jehovah and his Christ on their own. They were taught as is highlighted by the what the Ethiopian eunuch said to Phillip . The Ethiopian had been reading from Isaiah  (prophecy) and when Philip asked if he understood what he was reading he replied “How can I, except some man should guide me? “ Acts 8:31  (KJV)  How did Philip know how to explain the prophecies? Because he had been taught what they mean.  The Bible sets the pattern.  The Bible alone is what God has given us, but help is need to understand it.  The first century Christians did not have just the  Gospels, they received written instruction that explained and clarified what a Christians responsibility are.  If all that was needed was the information in the accounts of Jesus life, that is all that God would have provided.   

Without the assistance of the publications that the WTS produce have taught the basics of Bible truth I would not understand the importance of Gods word.  I do not take anything the WTS prints at face value, and no JW should.  We should examine for ourselves what is presented.  If we do not agree or understand the reasoning's, fine. There is no problem in that. If I am asked something that I do not understand the reason for I will use words like the “ “current thought is..”   or “it is felt that....” and not give my own idea.

You quote 1 Cor 11: 3   “But I want YOU to know that head of every man is the Christ and the head of every woman is the man and in turn of Christ is God! “  We understand that to mean exactly as it says Jesus is our ”head”

Don't forget (Ephesians 5:21 “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.” (KJV)  The Greek word that the KJV renders as “submitting” is ”hupotasso” which means “to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:— be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. “   We are COMMANDED to submit ourselves to the authority of those taking the lead

The GB are not our “heads”  as you try to portray them.  As Hebrews 13:17 shows they (and all in positions of responsibility)  take the lead and that we are subject to them in their relative positions .  They do not give us laws or rules.  The Bible give us laws and rules.  The WTS through its publications provide us with reminders as to what God requires, What it really means to be a follow of the Christ.  To just say we believe is not enough.  We need to be: “ doers of the word , and not hearers only.” Jas. 1:22 When we heed the reminders from the Bible as to Christian conduct, we are submitting to their authority.

The first century Christians were set apart from the religions around them, especially the Jews.  A Christian was to be no part of the “world” (John 15:19)  The first century Christians were Gods organisation. (Acts 15:14 “how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name ”. KJV)  They followed the Christ and worshiped the same God that Jesus worshiped in the way that God wanted to be worshiped. The old Jewish system of worship was no longer what God required of his name people. They had to  Separate from the Jewish and other systems. (2 Corinthians 6:17 “ Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate , saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing ; and I will receive you,” KJV) . If they stopped associating with the congregation they became a part of the world. They had to remain a Christian if they wanted “salvation”  The Jews thought that they were Gods chosen people, but an Israelite  Christian would not go back to the Jewish religious system from which they escaped.

The religions that claim to be Christian today are like the Jews, they feel that they are Gods people, and like the Jews they have been rejected. When one comes to Christ and realize the folly of the churches and begin to serve the God of Jesus it is as if they were a Jew that become a Christian in the first century.  They have separated themselves from “the uncleen thing”.  Staying with the first century Christians was the way to salvation, a first century Christian did not go it alone. Staying with Jehovah's people today is the way to salvation, so YES of course the publications say things like  “But if we were to draw away from Jehovah’s organisation, there would be no place else to go for salvation and true joy.”   Just as if a first century Christian decided to return to the Jewish religious system they lose out on salvation, drawing away from the only people (like the first century Christian congregations) that worshiped Jehovah the way he wants to be worshiped, we will lose out on salvation.


You made a subtle reference to the blood issue.  If the actions of the men that have changed the understanding on blood cause some to stumble that is the problem for those men.  It is Jehovahs place to decide if they are accountable and he will hold the responsable (Matthew 18:6 .But whoever stumbles one of these little ones who put faith in me, it is more beneficial for him to have hung around his neck a millstone such as is turned by an ass and to be sunk in the wide, open sea.)  

I fully agree with your last statements and so do JWs.

Do not put your trust in nobles , nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs .Ps 146    : 3

The true authority is :

But I want YOU to know that head of every man is the Christ and the head of every woman is the man and in turn of Christ is God! 1 Cor 11: 3

If JW will only follow the counsel :

Do not put your trust in nobles , nor in the son of earthling man to whom no salvation belongs .Ps 146    : 3

The true authority is :
But I want YOU to know that head of every man is the Christ and the head of every woman is the man and in turn of Christ is God! 1 Cor 11: 3   

We understand that to mean exactly as it says Jesus is our” head”

Don't forget (Ephesians 5:21 “Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.” (KJV)  The Greek word that the KJV renders as “submitting” is ”hupotasso” which means “to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:— be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto. “   We are COMMANDED to submit ourselves to the authority of those taking the lead  

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Brenton Hepburn

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I AM one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I am always learning. I am NOT an expert in the full sense of the word but I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT - the so called mind control problems-so called prophecies - how being a JW affects the individual and relatives and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. >>WARNING<< Please be aware that there are people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs. By all means ask these ones questions. Depending on the question you will get an honest answer, but, generally the answer you get, will mislead you as to what we believe, often because, they do not give ALL the relevant details. These ones will, have an agenda against JWs., and will at times give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask one of the NON JWs a question, that is fine, BUT if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: There(have been)and are, some "experts" here who are NOT always the most courteous and polite, at times are actually quite rude, that applies to both JW's and non JW's and their answers may offend, especially when they get personal and attack the character of the person and not the message. Unfortunately some here that have done that. So it IS IMPORTANT to chose an "expert" that YOU feel will best suit YOU by reading some of their past answers . . . . .

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I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.

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I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek. Was a public tax accountant for many years untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up due to health problems.

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