Jehovah`s Witness/Jesus as the creator


Good day Sir brent

I've already asked 2 real JW's expert with this kind of question.  Now I just want to know your thought on this since you're the type of guy who would give much information on every subject:

(Colossians 1:15-16) He [Jesus] is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For BY him "ALL THINGS" were created: things in "HEAVEN" and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created BY him and for him.


(Isaiah 44:24) (RSV) 24 Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made "ALL THINGS", who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth—Who was with me?—

>>Since Jesus is the CREATOR of "ALL THINGS" whether HEAVEN and EARTH, then as JW's doctrine that Jesus is just the "Master Worker", then here's my two question:

1)How can God(Jehovah) creates every thing "BY" Christ if God(Jehovah) created it alone??? as he says: "Who was with me?—"??

2)And since JESUS is said to be the one who created: things in "HEAVEN" and on earth, so was it JESUS who created the ANGELS too?? In case if that's the point, then is it REASONABLE to say that Archangel Michael created SATAN and GABRIEL?

MY CONCLUSION(on the two passages above):

Since it says that JESUS was the one who created: things in "HEAVEN" and on earth, then if HE IS NOT JEHOVAH, then that INCLUDES also that JEHOVAH is part of JESUS creation!!!! Which is ridiculously FUN and impossible!!! So JESUS must be JEHOVAH!!!

Any justification?

Looking forward

Greetings  ^_^

Thank you for your question, and I hope you are able to follow my reasoning's and that I have explained matters clearly. Yes this is one couple of texts that can seem to be either  contradictory, or show that Jesus is God, especially when we look at hem and them alone.  I will take us through the context of those texts as well as look at some others.  

First what do we know about the book of Isaiah?  His words are directed to Judah and Jerusalem in an attempt to  stimulate the people into serving Jehovah and to stay faithful.  Instead of looking to idol gods or the nations around them for help.  They had lost faith in God to be able to deliver then.   A lot of Isaiah's words are directed at the Israelites as a warning because of their unfaithfulness

One of the problems that the people continued to have was the worship of false gods.  In Chapter 44 Isaiah points out the foolishness of worshiping idols . Lets start by reading the context of Isaiah 44 starting from say Verse 6 and reading from the RSV

“6  Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: "I am the first and I am the last; besides me there is no god. 7  Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me . Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. 8  Fear not, nor be afraid; have I not told you from of old and declared it? And you are my witnesses! Is there a God besides me? There is no Rock; I know not any."

[COMMENT: The Isrselites are reminded that Jehovah is their Lord and Redeemer that there are no gods equal to him.  Next few verses show just how foolish it is for them to make idols ]

“9  All who make idols are nothing, and the things they delight in do not profit; their witnesses neither see nor know, that they may be put to shame. 10  Who fashions a god or casts an image, that is profitable for nothing? 11  Behold, all his fellows shall be put to shame, and the craftsmen are but men; let them all assemble, let them stand forth, they shall be terrified, they shall be put to shame together. 12  The iron smith fashions it and works it over the coals; he shapes it with hammers, and forges it with his strong arm; he becomes hungry and his strength fails, he drinks no water and is faint. 13  The carpenter stretches a line, he marks it out with a pencil; he fashions it with planes, and marks it with a compass; he shapes it into the figure of a man, with the beauty of a man, to dwell in a house. 14  He cuts down cedars; or he chooses a holm tree or an oak and lets it grow strong among the trees of the forest; he plants a cedar and the rain nourishes it. 15  Then it becomes fuel for a man; he takes a part of it and warms himself, he kindles a fire and bakes bread; also he makes a god and worships it, he makes it a graven image and falls down before it. 16  Half of it he burns in the fire; over the half he eats flesh, he roasts meat and is satisfied; also he warms himself and says, "Aha, I am warm, I have seen the fire!" 17  And the rest of it he makes into a god, his idol; and falls down to it and worships it; he prays to it and says, "Deliver me, for thou art my god!" 18  They know not, nor do they discern; for he has shut their eyes, so that they cannot see, and their minds, so that they cannot understand. 19  No one considers, nor is there knowledge or discernment to say, "Half of it I burned in the fire, I also baked bread on its coals, I roasted flesh and have eaten; and shall I make the residue of it an abomination? Shall I fall down before a block of wood?" 20  He feeds on ashes; a deluded mind has led him astray, and he cannot deliver himself or say, "Is there not a lie in my right hand?"

Can you see what the LORD is here telling Jacob (Jacob here refers to the nation of Israel see verse 21).  That idols gods are of no value, they are useless.  These gods can not deliver or save the people (Verse 17).   When it comes to verse 24 we see Jehovah is showing his superiority over all the so called gods that the people had been worshiping.  The RSV Reads “Thus says the LORD, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth-Who was with me ?-”  It is this last part that is important He asks “Who was with me ?”.  -  The “who” is referring to the other  useless man made gods.

Now we know God (Jehovah) was not alone when he created the earth.  Genesis 1:26 we read   “26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:”  The trinity teaches that there are three separate and distinct individuals in the trinity. Of  Genesis 1:26 they say the “us” are individuals of the trinity.  We say the “us” refers only to God and Jesus.  Either way, Genesis show more that one individual involved in the creation process.

The question that needs to be asked is “ Exactly what or who is meant when the Bible refers to God”  When we read “God said”  we understand that to be the Almighty, the Father, the one the Bible calls Jehovah.

The trinity view says that is the Father speaking there.

In Isaiah who is identified as God in those verses? Is it God the Father,  God the Son or the Godhead of three individuals”?

Often trinitarians say that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament.  If that is the case then Jesus is the God of the Israelites. Here is who the KJV identifies as the Almighty (The RSV does not use the name Jehovah)

Ex 6:3  And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.

Ps 83:18  That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.

Lets just see a few other texts that tell us something else about the God of Israelites

Duet 4:35  “Unto thee it was shewed, that thou mightest know that the LORD he is God; there is none else beside him.”  Only one God  

Duet. 6:4  “Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:”  Numeral one

In contradt the Bible tells us Jesus being a Jew, had a God the same God as the Hebrews.

Mark 15:34 “And ... Jesus cried ... "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?"

John 20:17 “Jesus said ... I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God."

Rom 15:6  “ that together you may with one voice glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

The followers of Jesus understood that he worshiped the same God that they did.

So the God of the Israelites is Jehovah it is the ALMIGHTY that is saying in Isaiah  "I am the LORD, who made all things, who stretched out the heavens alone, who spread out the earth-Who was with me ?-”  It is this last part that is important He asks “Who was with me ?”.

Back to the questions  “Who was with me ?”  Genesis says he was not alone, so what is being referred to here?  The “who” is referring to the the man-made gods of wood, stone, gold etc that the people worshiped, none of them were with God when during the creative period nor after.  That is why in Verse 7 God asks “Who is like me? Let him proclaim it, let him declare and set it forth before me . Who has announced from of old the things to come? Let them tell us what is yet to be. “

OK that may explains the “who but what about “ I am the LORD, who made all things, …. alone ”,  how could he be alone if he was with “us” in Genesis?  Is this a contradiction? No. What it is referring to is that God “alone” is the author of creation – all creation originates with God. None of those idol gods were with him. As far as gods that are worshiped, he was alone.

Why do we say God was “the author of creation”?  Because God had a master worker. Using the RSV lets look at Proverbs 8:22-30

22  The LORD created me<u> at the beginning of his work, the first of his acts of old. 23  Ages ago I was set up, at the first, before the beginning of the earth. 24  When there were no depths I was brought forth, when there were no springs abounding with water. 25  Before the mountains had been shaped, before the hills, I was brought forth; 26  before he had made the earth with its fields, or the first of the dust of the world. 27  When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28  when he made firm the skies above, when he established the fountains of the deep, 29  when he assigned to the sea its limit, so that the waters might not transgress his command, when he marked out the foundations of the earth, 30  then I was beside him, like a master workman ; and I was daily his delight, rejoicing before him always,.”

Most Bible scholars have come to the conclusion that the one spoken of here is Jesus. Here are a couple of quotes from trinitarian commentaries that acknowledge that Jesus is the one spoken of

Albert Barnes 1798-1870  A Presbyterian Theologian
John declares that all which Wisdom here speaks of herself was true in its highest sense of the Word that became flesh: {#Joh 1:1-14} just as Apostles afterward applied #/RAPC Wis 7:22-30 to Christ. {compare #Col 1:15 Heb 1:3}

Matthew Henry   1662 –  1714 also a Presbyterian Theologian
That it is an intelligent and divine person that here speaks seems very plain, and that it is not meant of a mere essential property of the divine nature, for Wisdom here has personal properties and actions; and that intelligent divine person can be no other than the Son of God himself,

Cyrus Ingerson Scofield ( 1843 -  1921)
That wisdom is more than the personification of an attribute of God, or of the will of God as best for man, but is a distinct adumbration of Christ, is sure to the devout mind.  #Pr 8:22-36 Joh 1:1-3 Col 1:17

There is a difference in the reading of Verse 22.  the KJV says  “The LORD possessed me in the beginning” as opposed to many others that say created

The NWT renders it “ “Jehovah himself <u>produced
me”  The foot note in the Study edition tells us “Produced me.” Heb., qa·na′ni; TLXX(Gr., e′kti·sen′ me)Sy, “created me”; Lat., pos·se′dit me, “possessed me.”

Strongs Hebrew Dictionary says  of the base word “qanah”  - “ a primitive root; to erect, i.e. create; by extension, to procure, especially by purchase (causatively, sell); by implication to own:—“

my Hebrew interlinear uses a slightly different word qn ni  and renders it into Ewnglish as “he- acguired-me”

My New King James study Bible in foot notes says “The Hebrew verb for possessed can mean “brought forth” or “created”.”

So there are two points to this passage. 1) Jesus was ““brought forth” or “created” or ” possessed” by God at the beginning creation, and, 2) that Jesus was Gods “master workman”  With that in mind lets jump to John 1:3, speaking of Jesus we are told  “ all things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.” (RSV)   The KJV say “ All things  were made  by <1223> him”  The Greek word rendered as “through” and “by” is dia  Strongs Greek Dictionary says  “1223  dia  a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act; through”

As Gods master worker creation was done “by the agency” of Jesus.

Keeping that in mind lets now look at Colossians 1:15-16   “15  He is the image of the invisible God, the first-born of all creation; 16  for in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities-all things were created through him and for him.”

Notice please the use of    through here as well.  So straight away we see that Jesus was “the agency” by which all things were created” Now you have highlighted two words in your quote “"ALL THINGS" were created: things in "HEAVEN "  These are very important. First of all the word “ALL”. The Greek word very rarely means “ universal all” or “absolutely everything”   The Greek word here is “pas”. Strongs Greek Lexicon says “ pas including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any , every, the whole:— all (manner of , means), alway(-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as , + no(-thing), X thoroughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.”

Charles Haddon Spurgeon Clarifies the meaning of “pas” in his Sermon No. 181, New Park Pulpit, Vol. 4, p. 135,136.

Now, beloved, when you hear anyone laughing or jeering at a limited atonement, you may tell him this. General atonement is like a great wide bridge with only half an arch; it does not go across the stream: it only professes to go half way; it does not secure the salvation of anyone. Now, I had rather put my foot upon a bridge as narrow as Hungerford, which went all the way across, than on a bridge that was as wide as the world, if it did not go all the way across the stream. I am told it is my duty to say that all men have been redeemed, and I am told that there is a Scriptural warrant for it—“Who gave himself a ransom for all , to be testified in due time.” Now, that looks like a very, very great argument indeed on the other side of the question. For instance, look here. “The whole world is gone after him .” Did al l the world go after Christ? “Then all Judea went and were baptized by him in Jordan.” Was all Judea, or all Jerusalem baptized in Jordan ? “You are of God, little children,” and “the whole world lies in the wicked one.” Does “the whole world ” there mean everyone? If so, how was it, then, that there were some who were “of God?” The words “world” and “all”  are used in some seven or eight senses</b> in Scripture; and <u>it is very rarely that “all” means all people , taken individually. The words are generally used to signify that Christ has redeemed some of all sorts—some Jews, some Gentiles, some rich, some poor, and has not restricted his redemption to either Jew or Gentile.  (Underline and bold mine)

End quote

Now the question that arises does “ALL” things” here mean universal “all” or some ( any ,  all manner of,  as many as )

Trinitarians teach that there are three separate and distinct individuals in the trinity.  The Father, Son and holy Ghost (Spirit).  Now ask yourself  - If “ALL THINGS in HEAVEN” actually  means universal ALL,  and if Jesus Created ALL things by himself, as that text says (and is linked with Isaiah 44:24 as trinitariands do), would that not include the Father and the Holy Ghost ?   Are not the Father and the holy Ghost part of the things in Heaven?

The NWT adds in brackets the word [other] in that passage  “16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.  17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,   18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things 19  because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him,   20 and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.”

Have a look at how many times in Colossians chapter 1 that the Greek Word “pas”  denoting “the agency by which an act is done” occurs  (KJV)

Col 1:1  Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by <1223> the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
Col 1:5  For <1223> the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel;
Col 1:9  For <1223> this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;
Col 1:14  In whom we have redemption through <1223> his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
Col 1:16  For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by <1223> him, and for him:
Col 1:20  And, having made peace through <1223> the blood of his cross, by <1223> him to reconcile all things unto himself; by <1223> him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through <1223> death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Let me illustrate the idea of “agency by which something gets done”

I decide that  I am going to build a new house, and I tel my friends that I am building a new house.  Now I decide that I am going to get a builder to do it for me.  I have heard for some time that there is a very good builder by the name of A B Vennings.  So I go to see Mr Vennings and he builds the house.   Mr Vennings has some help to build the house. The house gets built.  I nvite my friends to come and see the house that I built.  Now here is the question, can I rightly say that I built the house?  Can the builder I hired, A B Vennings, say that he built the house?  The answer is YES to both.  Why? Because I commissioned the build and the builder did the work.  In reality I built the house “through” (the agency of) Mr Vennings.

The same with creation. Revelation 3:14 says of Jesus  that he is “the beginning of God’s creation.” (RSV) “the beginning of the creation of God;” (JKV) “, the beginning of the creation by God” (NWT)  God created Jesus and John 1:3 tells us “apart from Him not a single thing came into existence.”  (Williams, Weymouth, Holman Crhritian Standard)  Most Bibles say “without him”. The Greek word here “choris”   Strongs word number “5565 adverb; at a space, i.e. separately or apart from”

So apart from Jesus nothing else come into excistance.


The  Almighty God of the Hebrews was Jehovah (see Ex 6:3 ;Duet 4:35; Duet. 6:4;  Ps 83:18  

In Genesis 1:26 we all agree that there is more that  the God of the Hebrews was not alone when man was made.

The Israelites had loss faith in their Savior God and had turned to worthless idols. Isaiah tells us  none of those gods were with The God of the Hebrews when he created the universe.

Proverbs 8 tells us that the Hebrew God had a master worker that help him in creation and John 1 tells us that all creation came through the agency of that master worker Jesus.

The context of Colossians 1 shows that all things does not include the Father with whom  Jesus existed in the heavens. To take “ALL THINGS” literally means Jesus created the Father.  Colossians emphasizes the fact that Jesus was and “ agency' that God used to give us hope (Col 1:5 )  due to his death (Col 1:22 ) via his shed blood (Col 1:14,20 )  we can be redeemed (Col 1:14 ) and reconciled to God (Col 1: 20 )  and as Gods agent created all [other] things (Col 1:16 )

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Brenton Hepburn


I AM one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I am always learning. I am NOT an expert in the full sense of the word but I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT - the so called mind control problems-so called prophecies - how being a JW affects the individual and relatives and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. >>WARNING<< Please be aware that there are people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs. By all means ask these ones questions. Depending on the question you will get an honest answer, but, generally the answer you get, will mislead you as to what we believe, often because, they do not give ALL the relevant details. These ones will, have an agenda against JWs., and will at times give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask one of the NON JWs a question, that is fine, BUT if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: There(have been)and are, some "experts" here who are NOT always the most courteous and polite, at times are actually quite rude, that applies to both JW's and non JW's and their answers may offend, especially when they get personal and attack the character of the person and not the message. Unfortunately some here that have done that. So it IS IMPORTANT to chose an "expert" that YOU feel will best suit YOU by reading some of their past answers . . . . .


I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.

I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek. Was a public tax accountant for many years untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up due to health problems.

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