Jehovah`s Witness/Micha 5:2 - Ms. Stephania Book of Jer.
QUESTION: Hello Sister T: We have never spoken, or should I say corresponded before. I was reading through the questions and replies and stumbled across your answers regarding Micha 5:2 and your response too Ms. Stephania.
Concerning Micha 5:2
I read you explanation to questioner and notice that there may be a gap due to understanding the meanings of the words..ie, Firstborn, Begotten, Brought Forth vs Created.
Also the wording you used to explain may have caused a further lack of understanding..you said "The Bible says Jesus is a created being. " Obviously this is from Rev: 3:14:
King James Version #KJV#
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
And to the angel of the congregation in La‧o‧di‧ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
I think if you had presented this passage of scripture, the questioner would have been more open to an explanation. For the scriptures do not say that Jesus is a "created" being in the way one would customarily look at the word "created"...Jesus was "brought forth", Begotten, born of God Himself.
Also if we look at Colosians 1:15 where it appears he began his questioning:
King James Version #KJV#
15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The questioner should have understood that this passage states that before Jesus, there was nothing "born" or brought forth from any creature. If the questioner, can reason it this way:
Just as a child, comes forth from the womb of it mother; so did Jesus come forth from the Bosom of his Father#knowing there is no Heavenly Mother#. The Father Spoke, and Jesus proceeded forth from him.
In proper view of the word "create" It means "to cause to be" "to cause to come into being". There are other senses of this word, but Jesus was 'caused to be, or brought into being" by the Word and will of the Father In the beginning before all things were caused to be.
Because he is the only "being" that proceeded directly from the Father, His is the "First Born", The Only Begotten".
So I think your assumption that he will not accept the word of God is and was incorrect and more due to lack of clear explanation on the matter. Even if he then did not agree, there would still be no cause to bring insult to him, for your job would have been done in your explanation.
You: "I do know that you who believe in the Trinity say that JW's don't even understand it"
Where do you get this assumption? It is not said JWS don't understand per se, it is said they do not agree.
You: "I'm not interested in the teachings of demons! "
In corresponding with someone, as a Witness you should refrain from making the above comment. First it is an insult to the questioner who may otherwise be willing to hear you; 2nd, at any given time, although you will deny it, the same charge can be brought against you, stating you have accepted demonic teachings.
I am wondering why you were seemingly offended by this woman. Obviously she is a Witness. More interesting, is the fact she doesn't believe you are. It appears she was only questioning your authenticity.
It would stand to reason, that the manner in which you answer things; ie with insults, caused this questioning as well as other things. So, it seems as though by the information you give, you appear to be a Witness, but your actions#responses# and things you support obviously state you are not.
As a Witness, you must at all times show yourself an approved Witness in word and action for that you "Testify" about. There is no scriptural justification for insults to another no matter what the belief.
So it is not confused, I did not write to scold you, just to offer something for thought.
My only question now is, we you post this and address the things contained in it, or will you reject it and hide from it.
Rev. Darryl Murphy
ANSWER: Hello Mr. Murphy,
I guess it's my turn to be corrected and scolded by you, although you say that's not what you're doing.... It's fine...you can scold me all you want...doesn't bother me one bit.
What you are not seeing is this questioner isn't interested in Bible answers, he just wants to cast doubts, he's been around for a long time and is only asking me questions to get his false beliefs across. I have been addressed by him many times, as well as others, and he never accepts any of what the Bible clearly says, as I said to him, it doesn't matter how smooth and sweet he seems, that's why they are called wolves in sheep clothing (Matt 7:15) it's all tactic and I don't fall for it. If you ask me a question and then disregard all the Bible proof I give you, like it doesn't even exist, then I know what's really going on. As I said to him, he better be glad I didn't reject him because he's not trying to learn, but to cause trouble.
If you want to believe otherwise, that's fine, I know better.
My explanation was just fine, just because people want to try and make Jesus not be created, and say that origin, brought forth, creation, begotten, doesn't mean what it means, and that he's not created as the Bible clearly says, and as I put in my many responses to him, doesn't make it so. No matter how much a person twist and turns it, a lie can't be made into the truth..
I paraphrase, as I've said before that I do, so if the Bible says, Jesus is of Creation, then that means, the Bible says he's a created being. He's not a created horseshoe, he's a being, a mighty spirit being who was created by his Father and his God, who's name is Jehovah forever! (Ex. 3:15) So that means before his Father Jehovah brought him forth, he did not exist. He has an origin. God has always existed (Ps 90:2) So to try and make that be anything other then what it is, is just twists and turns of scripture to try and fit it into a false belief, that is out of context with other Bible verses!
I put in those scriptures such as Rev. 3:14 and many others to him once before too. So to say I didn't present that passage of scripture isn't correct. He just chooses to ignore all the scriptures I cite.
Obviously someone must have said that JW's don't understand the Trinity, you are one person, how do you know that is an assumption? What you just said is an assumption, because someone has said that, I didn't say every person in the entire world who believes the Trinity said it, I said to him specifically, YOU, (the person I was typing to) who believe in the Trinity ......
So I was letting it be known Sir that I do not believe in teachings of demons, because the Trinity, regardless of what anyone says, is teachings of Demons! It's not any teaching of God, because God is not a Trinity, period. Any other teaching is of demons...so therefore I'm not interested. If you or him or anyone else is interested that's on you, I said I was not interested. I don't water down unscriptural lies. I'm sorry...can't do it.
Now about Stephania, this person has written to me before Sir, although you may not know this because I don't always put the person's name in my reply, plus people can make up names you know. But at any rate, if they are a Witness then they would know I was one by my scriptural replies....a REAL Witness can tell right off the bat who is one and who is not by their SCRIPTURAL ANSWERS. Not because someone who doesn't even know them comes on a website and says they are not, come on now..be serious. If what they say is NOT according to Scripture it will show...and I have not said anything that I have not backed up with Bible Scriptures, regardless if a person wants to accept it or not, or that is contradictory regarding other scriptures, it's all about context regardless if people refuse to accept that. Now I may not know everything and I never claimed to know it all, I'm not a Greek scholar and you are probably way more smarter than I am, but one thing I know and that is the difference between truthful teachings and falsehoods.
Now, if you ask me, she is not a Witness, (probably just knows someone in her family who is or something to that affect)...and her loaded statement suggesting she's asked me before to prove and I hadn't answered is a lot of hogwash. I see through those little word games and I call it like I see it. See real Witnesses don't do that, and real Witnesses also know that knowing what was studied doesn't mean anything either, as I stated to her. It's all about casting doubts. But all a True JW would have to do is read the scriptural answers to know if the person was a true JW or not. If you don't read it, then you won't know, and if you don't know our beliefs because you're not a real Witness and trying to perpetrate a fraud, then you won't know.
Don't you know how many people come on here and say they are a Witness trying to be slick...Satan isn't stupid...he knows exactly what he's doing.
Mal. 3:18 "And YOU people will again certainly see [the distinction] between a righteous one and a wicked one, between one serving God and one who has not served him."
The latter part there, you will be able to tell...you may cannot tell, but like this scripture says:
2 Cor. 2:11 "That we may not be overreached by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his designs"
Why don't she write to the opposers/apostates on here and tell them to leave the forum, as they shouldn't even be on here to begin with.
Now...Sir, are you serious? I have nothing to hide from, I'm not intimidated easily, and I'm not afraid to say when I don't know something either, or if I made a mistake, or even if I need to be corrected by a true JW, I accept that with all humbleness. But I'm firm in my stand and my beliefs, and Jehovah is my God and Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY ones who have the Truth as laid out in the Bible, all these opposers make that more and more clear as the days go on, it's a joy to be here, sorry you have a problem with me, but I'm here... have a good day Sir...
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hello Sister T; Thank you for your rapid response. Now as I went over your response to me, there were some things that jumped out that I would like to address.
You: "I guess it's my turn to be corrected and scolded by you, although you say that's not what you're doing.... It's fine...you can scold me all you want...doesn't bother me one bit."
Your Turn? Seeing we have never corresponded, I can only assume that you have read some of the discussions I have participated in with Brother Grunbaum. If that be so, then you should know that I don't set out to "correct" or "scold" anyone. I simply share and seek to reason on the scriptures. Now as far as me telling you about the insults etc. it was not so much a scolding than a reminder that others are reading your posts. If someone comes to the site and seeks guidance, sees the insults etc. then most likely that person will not only harbor a bad view of you, but the Witnesses as well. I am sure you understand that if that happens, then your message will never get through, for the insults will overshadow what you are saying and will only empower the questioner if he is seeking to bring you discredit.
The Questioner: There is no way, given the way the question was asked, that I would have known that the person continually contacts you in order to "get his false beliefs across" as you stated.I rather saw that he was looking to debate the interpretation of the scripture, although in reading he did come across aggressive.
In actuality, he was correct about the word and meaning defined from Strongs as used at Micha 5:2 and in so being correct about the meaning, it appears he thought he had a solid argument against the teaching of Christ being "brought forth" or "created". This is of course because the questioner does not fully understand the complete meaning of the words and of course how Christ was "always".
It was more clear to me, that his understanding was lacking, when he asked you to explain "Firstborn", and yes, obvious that he was trying to bait for subsequent argument, however,as I stated before, his understanding was lacking and if he be a perpetrator of strife, then for the sake of other readers, not engaging him and simply listing the scriptural proofs would have been sufficient and more effective.
Now as far as everything else concerning the Trinity conversation, especially that of your paraphrasing etc...I will not get into the semantics and linguistics.
I will however offer my apology if you feel in anyway, that I wronged you, for that was not my intent. It is well known that I am not a Witness but a Baptist Minister and do not accept the Trinitarian Teachings for it is clear they are not Biblical. I only sought to offer more insight, knowing that this person would be reading.
Now Ms. Stephania, It is obvious she is a Witness.
You are absolutely correct. A Witness will know a Witness by the scriptural answers given etc etc. A Witness will also know another Witness by their conduct. So whereas your knowledge and reasoning of scripture may show you to be a Witness, conduct as well as other things could call that into question.
It is well known that the WTBS does not approve of Witnesses being on this site for the purpose of Witnessing or seeking answers. It is also known, that Witnesses are taught to be respectful of others regardless of their beliefs and not to engage in conversations that are judgmental of others, their beliefs and lead to insulting comments etc. Again, it is also known that Witnesses do not, regardless of the explanation given, use certain titles etc.
So now, for a Baptized Witness to come on this site, and see all these things, what do you suppose they will think? I just read questions sent by Ms. Stephania to Brother Grunbaum; entitled "JW" that address Witnesses being on this site etc.
Now you ask why didn't she write the opposers and the apostates on this site. Well, maybe, just maybe she thought she was.
Lastly, please allow me to address your final comments:
You: Now...Sir, are you serious? I have nothing to hide from, I'm not intimidated easily, and I'm not afraid to say when I don't know something either, or if I made a mistake, or even if I need to be corrected by a true JW, I accept that with all humbleness. But I'm firm in my stand and my beliefs, and Jehovah is my God and Jehovah's Witnesses are the ONLY ones who have the Truth as laid out in the Bible, all these opposers make that more and more clear as the days go on, it's a joy to be here, sorry you have a problem with me, but I'm here... have a good day Sir...
I understand you not willing to be corrected or scolded by any other than a JW. That is fine. I also applaud you for being firm in your stance. There is nothing to learn from a person that wavers but to waver.
Now although I disagree with your statement about the only ones having the truth as laid out in the Bible, again, I applaud you for feeling this way and being ready to defend it.
Now you stated: "sorry you have a problem with me, but I'm here"
Sister T, why would I have a problem with you?
You also stated: "Now I may not know everything and I never claimed to know it all, I'm not a Greek scholar and you are probably way more smarter than I am, but one thing I know and that is the difference between truthful teachings and falsehoods."
When I read this, it became clear that you may know of my credentials etc. However, It is not about who is smarter..there are a lot of smart and extremely intelligent people who have no understanding whatsoever of scripture. In fact most don't even believe. You do very well at handling your beliefs thats all that matters.
Now saying you know falsehoods...well I will leave that alone. But I will share something with you. There is a reason I generally only deal with Brother Grunbaum and I might add, I enjoy every conversation we have. I contact him for discussion because by reading his profile,and by past conversations with him, I know we can have scholarly discussions with respect although we stand at opposite ends.
I would not contact you for anything other than asking questions to gain clarity on something you may have said, or in this case to aid in conversation where I may agree with your stance. Anything else Sister T would be the equivalent of "Bullying", knowing that I am more versed in Hebrew/Greek Histories etc.
Rev. Darryl Murphy
Hello Rev. Darryl Murphy,
From some of your replies I can see that you didn't understand some things that I said to you and I also know that we will not agree on my conduct, I totally disagree.
You yourself said: "There is no way, given the way the question was asked, that I would have known that the person continually contacts you in order to "get his false beliefs across" as you stated."
That's my point right there, so then since you do not know, then it's not wise to speak on matters that you do not know about. Would you not agree? (Prov. 18:13)
Knowing the definition of the word "time indefinite" does not make him correct Sir, taking Bible verses out of context doesn't make them correct or prove anything either. Since I already know some of what he believes since he's written to me many times, then I can rightly say that his belief is not correct according to what's laid out in the Bible...and since he refuses to accept clear Bible Scriptures then I told him, (paraphrase) "believe whatever way you want to believe, be happy in your belief." But I also reply to him because as I mentioned once before, I don't want to give up hope for people, lives are at stake here. Maybe one day something will click and maybe it won't. But that's not up to me, it's up to Jehovah, all I can do is plant and water, God makes it grow. (1 Cor. 3:6)
You know there is a difference between coming on here to ask a legit question and coming on here to be an opposer.
Look what Paul said to a person who was an opposer and was trying to turn someone away from the faith, which is what all the opposers and apostates who are on here are trying to do:
Acts 13:8-10 "But El′y‧mas the sorcerer (that, in fact, is the way his name is translated) began opposing them, seeking to turn the proconsul away from the faith. 9 Saul, who is also Paul, becoming filled with holy spirit, looked at him intently 10 and said: “O man full of every sort of fraud and every sort of villainy, you son of the Devil, you enemy of everything righteous, will you not quit distorting the right ways of Jehovah?"
Wow, I guess if you could, you would need to have a talk with him about his insults and conduct...huh? I'm not watering down any scriptures, especially for any opposers! Why? Because people's lives are at stake!
A lot of people who go to Church are learning what? Someone told me just the other day that when they went to Church it was like going to a concert! Yeah, you have fun singing and dancing but what have you learned? Giving feel good sermons to keep ones coming back doesn't give them the knowledge they need to survive this system or to be close to Jehovah in order to survive. It's all a ratchet! I'll tell you what they are learning, when someone dies what's the first thing from the Preacher's mouth? "It's God's will, we don't know why God took our dear departed loved one, they're with God now" Give me a break!
I've met a few people who have inward hate for God because they think he took their mom away! This is what people are learning in Church and it's a lie! Are the Churches telling the masses the truth? No, the masses are seeing all the hypocrisy, and a lot of people blame God, why? Because that's what they are being taught to do! And it's wrong!
But yetinstill a lot of people say that JW's are wrong, but we say God is love, it's not God who takes your loved one, and we tell them about the resurrection hope where our dear loved ones will be brought back to life, this is from the Bible. (1 John 4:8-10; Acts 24:15; Rev. 21:3,4 compare Romans 6:7, 23)
Also, I've come across a lot of people who were so against JW's that they disregard what the Bible clearly says just because it was JW's who showed it to them. I have literally met people who agreed with everything I showed them in the Bible, but when they found out I was a JW, then all of a sudden the very same things that they agreed on, now they didn't anymore...so that is fact! What changed? The Bible truths? Nope, it was the person's viewpoint.
If the Bible says souls die, and you come back and say, my soul doesn't die, when Ez.18:4 says it does, and you try to get around that the best way you can or just ignore it, then it's obvious what's going on, I'm not at his door knocking, he has to literally get on his computer and come to this site, pick a name and start writing to that person. If he doesn't believe what we show him clearly from the Bible and disregards it all, but still keeps coming back then any reasonable person can see through that Sir. We are adults here, I don't baby people when it comes to their life. This isn't a game, it's serious and lives are at stake.
And no he was not correct about Jesus, because he has not "always" been. The Bible doesn't teach that at all. I go according to the Bible, not some man made doctrine that isn't according to Bible truths.
And the fact is, if he can't understand it's reason and the Bible gives that reason, just because people don't want to accept that reason doesn't mean one single solitary thing. (John 6:44, Dan 12:10)
Now, you say this: "Now you ask why didn't she write the opposers and the apostates on this site. Well, maybe, just maybe she thought she was."
In my reply to her yesterday Sir, which should be on here by now, she says that my Bible answers are all correct, so I don't think she thought that, there you are making assumptions regarding this whole situation that you know not. Her initial post to me was not even about my so called insults or conduct as you call it, it was about someone else. She just is not understanding things correctly.
This site calls for true JW's to be present on here, as Bro. Grunbaum explained to our sister, read that as to why I'm here. It's fine if SHE doesn't want to be here, it has nothing to do with me. I'm not doing anything wrong with being here in the sight of my God Jehovah and if people would stop thinking that we are robots who don't think for ourselves maybe that will sink in one day.
As I said to her, I don't know if she is a JW or not, but if she is then she is my sister, so therefore I will not speak against her to you.
I didn't say that you were smarter then me to put myself down, I just don't elevate myself because I owe my scriptural understanding to my God Jehovah, and I thank him every single day for the privilege of not being in the blackness (as taken from Bro. Grunbaum). Jehovah gives wisdom, so I don't need to be a scholar, but with that said, I just meant that a person with more worldly wisdom may be smarter then I am, but as far as Bible truths go, if they aren't according to what the Bible says, all the worldly wisdom in the world means nothing. And to Jehovah we already know it means nothing, (1 Cor. 3:19) so I'm not worried about being "bullied" as you say by anyone. (1 Cor. 1:18-31) If you come to me speaking lingo that I do not understand to prove a point, it still boils down to true or false according to the Bible, there is only ONE truth in Scripture, anything contrary to truth is what?
Now as far as what I said about if I'm corrected by a JW I'll humbly accept it, where did I say I will ONLY accept correction from a JW? Did I not say at the very start of my response that you can scold me all you want to? Did I not say that? It doesn't mean I will necessarily agree, with either, as I did not agree with my sister's correction either.
See even though this scripture pertains to the elders, we as JW's are not masters over any other JW's faith. (1 Cor. 1:24)
Since you are not a JW, you just won't get it. So we can just agree to disagree! I'm not going to get into long debates and all the back and forth with you, I'm done.
Have a good day Rev. Darryl Murphy, thank you!