Jehovah`s Witness/SOUL

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QUESTION: Mr Eddie Im an unsaved trash for most people here, since I disagree with the common belief that you must belong in a specific ekklesia orthodox, catholic, protestant, evangelinst, JWs, Mormon, SDA etc.

But anyway if you want to discuss about science which means knowledge, it will be great. If not, it will be fine anyway.

Soul. I have some interesting things for you.

1)Your organization says that man is not a robot. Biology has also proven that all cells of man are factory units, where workers follow orders according to biologic programs(without any free will).

2)Besides this they are trillion, whereas we are only ONE. We feel ourself as one.

3)Finally, modern scientists can not explain and detect our self who watches the world. They say that our experience of one who watches the theatre of the outside world is an illusion to explain away true experience (with something unscientific and atheistic that denies subject and object are different). Opening the brain they can not see what we see, smell what we smell, taste what we taste, hear what we hear, touch what we touch. They can only detect electrochemical signal.


So I would disagree, that man is not just a flesh but someone with free will, a self, a soul as God who is immaterial.

Your opinion would be great.

ThankS Mr Eddie G

ANSWER: Hi Christaras,

Thanks for your post. Yes I'd be most delighted to discuss scientific matters related to the Scriptures or the scriptures related to science, but I'm a little bit confused about your  subject: SOUL.

Are you saying that man has an immortal soul?

Or just a soul like the animals but conscious?

As for your points, I do agree on 1 and 2 but on point 3, I think what you're saying is - science can only see the physical but can't see the spiritual, intangible side of man. In other words, there's no way for scientists to truly quantify what we feel (like love/anger), what we see (beautiful colors/flowers), our dreams and wishes, etc. Correct?

If so, I agree because science is limited when it comes to such things. In fact it will never be able to reach the spiritual plateau unless science considers the existence of God - the creator of the heavens and the earth (Gen 1:1).

Agree?


BTW, don't be too hard on yourself - saying you're "an unsaved trash for most people here" doesn't help but put yourself down.

Don't worry about what others say, else you'll drive yourself nuts. Focused on the more important things - such as the truth.

As for belonging to a "specific ekklesia", yes it's important to belong to one especially IF it's the right one. Why?

Because of this:

“. . .God for the first time turned his attention to the nations to take out of them a people for his name.” (Acts 15:14)


“And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream.” (Micah 4:1)

“For all the peoples, for their part, will walk each one in the name of its god; but we, for our part, shall walk in the name of Jehovah our God to time indefinite, even forever.” (Micah 4:5)



““The ones grief-stricken in absence from [your] festal season I shall certainly gather together; absent from you they happened to be, because of bearing reproach on her account. 19 Here I am acting against all those afflicting you, at that time; and I will save her that is limping, and her that is dispersed I shall collect together. And I will set them as a praise and as a name in all the land of their shame. 20 At that time I shall bring YOU people in, even in the time of my collecting YOU together. For I shall make YOU people to be a name and a praise among all the peoples of the earth, when I gather back YOUR captive ones before YOUR eyes,” Jehovah has said.” (Zephaniah 3:18-20)

““YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.” 12 “I myself have told forth and have saved and have caused [it] to be heard, when there was among YOU no strange [god]. So YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Jehovah, “and I am God.” (Isaiah 43:10-12)

In other words, since Jehovah God has gathered people for his name back then (to represent Him), we should expect the same thing today.

Question for you to answer is - which organization (religion) Jehovah God is using today to represent Him?


Follow up.
Eddie G

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Sorry for moving away from topic and not defining exactly what I ask.

The question is if there is another part in man, instead of the fleshy and mechanical(our fleshy organism), a spiritual and immaterial possessing free will - what we call the real "ego"="I", the real character.

Yes, its true that most of the times people connect the existence of such a spiritual part with immortality, that is flesh dies but self continues to exist. Maybe the connection rests on the belief that if soul is immaterial it can not be harmed by physical matters which can only destroy the flesh. In the end, I will return to this "immortality" claim.

First of all. It seems that there is much evidence for such an essence and we could say its our deep ego, the real character who experiences the world - the "subject". For example the cell particles do not see, hear, smell, taste, touch. Its someone else who experiences these things through the body vehicle( which somehow connects our ego with this world). Theres a screen in the brain, but we're not the screen. There are speakers in the brain, but we are not the speakers. Neuroscientists' organs can not detect this one who seems that he's "watching from the inside a movie or a theatrical play".

It is said that in the Bible the word soul has many meanings, but I think most of the times it just refers to the individual without going in detail about his nature. I believe another strong reason that there is an immaterial essence is the phrase of Jesus "do not fear the one that can kill the body but the one that can kill body and soul in Gehenna". Even if this refers to the Second Death - final death without hope, it still shows that there is more than the flesh. If we were only this flesh and we couldnt be resurrected with the same body, then we would be lost. So there must be an immaterial character preserved for the resurrection, or else its not our real self.

Back to the immortality problem. I understand that JWs deny an immortal soul, because this would make Jesus' sacrifice a nothing. Besides this they say that "resurrection" would not be needed. Of course I know that they believe some people are resurrected after death as spirits in the heavens. Evangelists say that Jesus died for the flesh, the decay of the physical world, so "resurrection" is of the flesh,  and also Jesus opened the way for the heavens. They basically use "death" in the figurative sense.

I also think that even if there is an immaterial essence this doesnt necessarily follows it was created to live apart from the body/flesh. It may be not. To finish up I think someone should have to be initiated in the mysteries of life and death to find the truth. Maybe we're already initiated and we havent understood this, for example darkness follows light, and light follows darkness. Day/Night/Day/Night.

Of course nobody wants to die in the literal or figurative sense, its a cruel thing that nobody wishes. Even people who claim they are tired of life do not really want to die but immortality is in their heart as Ecclesiastes says.

The subject is too difficult and I think that someone should have to pass through a real experience of life and death as Jesus.

Your view? Thanks.

ANSWER: Ahh, now I get what you're saying (I think). You're saying that there's an immaterial part of man that's immortal called "soul". And that this "soul" is by itself a conscious entity able to separate from our body when we seize to exist. And that soul is an "essence" containing all information about us. Correct?

If so then we have major problems with this thinking / belief system when examined in light of the Scriptures.

Consider just one:

1)The Hebrew word "nephesh" for soul literally means "breath" or "a breather", while the Greek word "psykhe" for soul means living being. So both original words denotes: a person, an animal, or the life that a person or an animal enjoys. They never denote something that is immortal, a separate conscious entity inside man. No such thing.


Thus it's for this reason why animals are called souls and also the reason why Adam the first man (human) was called a living soul.

Notice:

“. . .And God went on to say: “Let the waters swarm forth a swarm of living souls and let flying creatures fly over the earth upon the face of the expanse of the heavens.” 21 . . .” (Genesis 1:20, 21)

“. . .And God went on to say: “Let the earth put forth living souls according to their kinds, domestic animal and moving animal and wild beast of the earth according to its kind.” . . .” (Genesis 1:24)

“. . .And Jehovah God proceeded to form the man out of dust from the ground and to blow into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man came to be a living soul.” (Genesis 2:7)

Hence, the soul being the living person, the creature - dies.

The Scriptures confirms this to be a fact:

“Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.” (Ezekiel 18:4)


The soul is mortal and subject to death - Ge 19:19, 20; Nu 23:10; Jos 2:13, 14; Jg 5:18; 16:16, 30; 1Ki 20:31, 32; Ps 22:29; Eze 18:4, 20; Mt 2:20; 26:38; Mr 3:4; Heb 10:39; Jas 5:20

Soul dies, “cut off” or destroyed - Ge 17:14; Ex 12:15; Le 7:20; 23:29; Jos 10:28-39; Ps 78:50; Eze 13:19; 22:27; Ac 3:23; Re 8:9; 16:3

It's destroyed by sword - Jos 10:37; Eze 33:6

or by suffocation - Job 7:15

or being in danger of death due to drowning - Jon 2:5

and also as going down into the pit or into Sheol - Job 33:22; Ps 89:48

or being delivered therefrom - Ps 16:10; 30:3; 49:15; Pr 23:14

So clearly, the soul dies.

As for the scripture you quoted where Jesus said:

“And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge·hen′na.” (Matthew 10:28)

Again this scripture shows the soul IS NOT immortal but can be destroyed.

In fact by referring to the “soul” separately, Jesus is telling us that God can destroy all of a person’s life prospects. Thus there's no hope of resurrection for those destroyed by God.

By using the burning Gehenna dump yard, Jesus is affirming that anything or anyone thrown in there is NOT WORTHY of resurrection. Thus it's a fitting symbol of complete destruction - the second death.

That's why it's very important to do all we can to serve Jehovah God while we're still alive because once we die, we seize to exist. Our hope for the future (resurrection) now rest on God's hands.

“. . .For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16)

“and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.” (Acts 24:15)

Agree?

As for this statement of yours:

>>If we were only this flesh and we couldnt be resurrected with the same body, then we would be lost. So there must be an immaterial character preserved for the resurrection, or else its not our real self.<<

You're mistaken - it's NOT the same body that is resurrected but the same PERSON.

Think about it Christaras, use your common sense and logic.

Will the people who died in the Titanic (for example) be resurrected with the same body they died in?

The answer is no because the particles/elements/atoms that made up the their fleshy bodies were long gone. When they decomposed beneath the ocean floor, the atoms got mixed up with the huge body of water. Some probably got eaten by fish and other sea creatures. In turn these sea creatures died then their atoms got recirculated again and again...so and so forth. So it doesn't make logical sense to be resurrected in the same body.

Consider too, what if the person was missing an eye, a leg, an arm, a nose, etc, will it be logical to expect that he / she will be resurrected in the SAME body? No, it doesn't make logical sense.

Furthermore, our current body is IMPERFECT thus when resurrected it's no longer an imperfect body. There's no reason to retain an imperfect body if our brain, mental capacity will be fully restored to its original design. It will be cruel on God's part to do that.

Imagine, to be able to think clearly without any fault but with a body that can't respond to the brain? Frustrating. So it doesn't make sense vice versa.

But it does make logical sense that our dear dead love ones, those who are in God's powerful memory are resurrected back to life as the SAME PERSON but with NEW body. This way the brain can now catch up with the perfect body. When resurrected the person will retain every bit of memory - to make sure it's the SAME person. Then as that person approaches perfection (within the thousand years of Jesus reign), mind and body will be in perfect sync.


This is not too difficult for Jehovah God since we can record people who died long ago and able watch them them on films as if they were still alive. Also, Jehovah God has a vast memory bank - that He can recall the names of ALL of the stars in the universe. So if we have a good record with God, then we can rest assure that we're in his memory.


So again, there's no "immaterial character preserved for the resurrection" but those who are in God's memory are safe - waiting for the time when they are "downloaded" (so to speak) from God's memory in a new body given to them.

(1 Corinthians 15:42-43) “So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power...."

Follow up if need be.






---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi.

I didnt say I believe in the "immortality" of this immaterial essence, I just acknowledge its' existence. It has to exist for the reasons I mentioned or else we are robots - an organism of determined particles. As for the Bible, I know all the verses you mention, I think they hardly refer onlyh to the flesh. They just refer to life without going in detail about the parts that compose it. Of course flesh is a part of life.



My Quote
>>If we were only this flesh and we couldnt be resurrected with the same body, then we would be lost. So there must be an immaterial character preserved for the resurrection, or else its not our real self.<<

You
>>You're mistaken - it's NOT the same body that is resurrected but the same PERSON.

Think about it Christaras, use your common sense and logic.

Will the people who died in the Titanic (for example) be resurrected with the same body they died in?

The answer is no because the particles/elements/atoms that made up the their fleshy bodies were long gone. When they decomposed beneath the ocean floor, the atoms got mixed up with the huge body of water. Some probably got eaten by fish and other sea creatures. In turn these sea creatures died then their atoms got recirculated again and again...so and so forth. So it doesn't make logical sense to be resurrected in the same body.

Consider too, what if the person was missing an eye, a leg, an arm, a nose, etc, will it be logical to expect that he / she will be resurrected in the SAME body? No, it doesn't make logical sense.<<


I dont disagree. I dont believe they will be resurrected with the same body, but with a new one. What I said was that if you dont believe we're an immaterial self/person but only flesh, then you would have to accept that this body/flesh should have to be preserved by God.

Since you say man=flesh, it follows that you accept flesh=person/personality.

Do you understand my thought? Theres a gap, a problem in JWs' anthropology that could be reconsidered.

As for immortality, Im not sure. Evangelists tell me that Jesus died for the flesh, resurrection is for the flesh. But Im not sure if that is completely true. Maybe youre correct and death is literal. You may cease to live waiting for a resurrection, no matter if you are composed of two elements, a spiritual and a fleshy .

Who knows?

Do you have any absolute proof from the Bible, that death is what most people think and not only a loss of a corrupted flesh?

Thank you.

Answer
Hi Cristaras,

You Said:

>>I didnt say I believe in the "immortality" of this immaterial essence, I just acknowledge its' existence. It has to exist for the reasons I mentioned or else we are robots - an organism of determined particles. <<

OK, if you're convinced of the existence of this "immaterial essence" then that's fine, you're entitled to it. But the real reason why we're not like robots is not because of this so called "essense" but because we're free moral agents, created in God's "image and likeness".

“. . .And God went on to say: “Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness. . .” (Genesis 1:26)

This means that we can reflect the qualities and attributes of the loving Creator Jehovah God. It's in this capacity, a free MORAL agency that makes us different from unthinking animals. As free moral agents - created in God's image - we're aware of our existence. We're conscious of our spiritual needs as well as well as emotional needs. And unlike animals we're endowed with ability to express our thoughts and emotions on different levels. We have conscience. Simple as that.


>>As for the Bible, I know all the verses you mention, I think they hardly refer onlyh to the flesh. They just refer to life without going in detail about the parts that compose it. Of course flesh is a part of life.<<

Those verses deal with the soul as a complete person. Pointing to the fact that the soul is not immortal nor an immaterial conscious part of man. Once the person (the soul) dies the  thoughts perishes.



“For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

“Do not put YOUR trust in nobles, Nor in the son of earthling man, to whom no salvation belongs.  4 His spirit goes out, he goes back to his ground; In that day his thoughts do perish.” (Psalm 146:3, 4)

It's for this reason - the ransom sacrifice by Jesus was provided so that those who "put faith in him" will have the hope of resurrection.

Lastly your question:

>>Do you have any absolute proof from the Bible, that death is what most people think and not only a loss of a corrupted flesh?<<

Again let the Scripture give you the honest and truthful answer.

“. . .For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all, neither do they anymore have wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. 6 Also, their love and their hate and their jealousy have already perished, and they have no portion anymore to time indefinite in anything that has to be done under the sun.” (Ecclesiastes 9:5, 6)

In other words - all about a person when he/she dies seizes to exist.

“. . .That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . .” (Romans 5:12)

“. . .For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)  

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