Jehovah`s Witness/Understanding - Justification Doctrine- Incorrect statements
QUESTION: Hello Sister T: I read through your response to me on Cult and must say that although i was not surprised. Now seeing that we will never agree on Jehovahs Witnesses being a cult, sect in the "neautral sense", there is no need to go over that again. However, there are some points that do need to be addressed.
You: "so called Christian religions, broke away from Catholicism to form their own religion but keeping most of the teachings that Catholicism has. That includes Baptist,"
Reply: Baptists did not breakaway from the Cahtolic Church. The Baptists as a denomination did not begin until almost 100 years after the reformation. If you were to trace Baptist roots correctly, you find them more along the lines of the Quakers etc. Baptists do not hold any doctrines borrowed from the Catholic Church other than the trinity. In fact, in Baptists as far as doctine, would be seen as more Calvinist in some areas.
You: "some Baptist believe in the Trinity and some do not. You are one who does not...and your upbringing may very well play a part in that."
Reply: My upbringing played very little role in my rejection of the Trinitarian belief. Although raised in a Witness Home, my Mothers father was a Baptist Pastor and Theologian. Being exposed to both doctrines I remained neautral on the issue until later in life. I have also beem exposed to many other religions. It was through my studies that I found the doctine to be in error.
You: "The International Bible Students did not break away just because they adopted the name Jehovah's Witnesses. Taking on God's name is not breaking away, it's moving forward as Bible understanding and accurate knowledge grew. "
You are correct. The break was not do to the adoption of the name. The adoption of the name was to seperate yourselves and identity with the International Bible Students. The break was because of the disagreement with Rutherford taking over and some doctinal disputes. So yes there was a breaking away. Now as you say 'Bible Understanding and accurate knowledge grew"; I would only agree partialy with this. Whereas After the adoption of the name the JWS may have understood some Biblical things better, it was under that name, that they had the most Failures. Prior to adoption of the name, Rutherford predicted the return of the Patriarchs in 1925; Bought property (Beth Sarim) to house them etc. This prediction of course failed. This added to the reasons of the split. Last straw? Rutherford slowly startied changing the doctrines of Russell beginning in 1921, writing over 25 books beginning with the "Harp of God". No need to go over all the dates predicted and failed. The most damaging 1975.
You: "Right we do not fit the description in the negative, but nor the positive, but as it is, this word is always used in the negative. In the Bible it's also used in the negative:
Rev. 2:6 "Still, you do have this, that you hate the deeds of the sect of Nic‧o‧la′us, which I also hate."
Here Sister T we see a play on words. The word "sect" was not used negatively. The "sect of Nicolaus" was hated.
Let us look at some other areas in the Bible where the word sect is used:
NWT Acts 28:19-22
But when the Jews kept speaking against it, I was compelled to appeal to Caesar, but not as though I had anything of which to accuse my nation.20Really on this account I entreated to see and speak to YOU, for because of the hope of Israel this chain I have around me.”21They said to him: “Neither have we received letters concerning you from Ju‧de′a, nor has anyone of the brothers that has arrived reported or spoken anything wicked about you.22But we think it proper to hear from you what your thoughts are, for truly as regards this sect it is known to us that everywhere it is spoken against.”
Sister T what "sect" are these passages of scripture referring too?
What about this one:
NWT Acts 24:4-8
4But that I may not hinder you any further, I beseech you to hear us briefly in your kindliness.5For we have found this man a pestilent fellow and stirring up seditions among all the Jews throughout the inhabited earth and a spearhead of the sect of the Naz‧a‧renes′,6one who also tried to profane the temple and whom we seized.7——8From him you yourself can by examination find out about all these things of which we are accusing him.”
Who were the Nazarines? Where the not concecrated unto God and assistants to the Levitical Priesthood? is this passage not talking about Christ, whom they were acussing?
The Bible uses the word "sect" in what could be calle a "neaural sense" it only denotes a group. The "name" of the group identifies who they are. So you are incorrect Sister T, the Bibe never uses the word "sect' in the negative.
You: "Since the misconception is that we follow a man, and ones say that Bro. Russell is/was our leader, we get the misinformation about being a cult, but we have said many times, we do not follow a man, we follow Jesus. "
Reply: All of the International Bible Student Doctrines came from Russell. After Russells death in 1919, from Rutherford as revised. The Witness doctrine is part Russell, but mostly Rutherford and others. The need for correction of doctrine came because they were the doctrines of men( The date settings and others). So it is because of that reason it is said you follow a leader, a man. Other doctrinal beliefs, such as Christmas, saluting the flag, military service are Biblical and a result of proper exogesis.
One of the biggest reasons the Witnesses are looked at as being a cult (in the negative sense) is because of the date setting of 1914. As you know, as it was originally taught, this was supposed to be a "visible return", when it failed to happen, it was changed to an "invisible return" and Justification doctrine put together to support it.
The main problem seen with the doctrine is that it is seen as not in harmony with scripture:
NWT Matthew: 28
18And Jesus approached and spoke to them, saying: “All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth
19Go therefore and make disciples of people of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the holy spirit,20teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded YOU. And, look! I am with YOU all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.”
So in this passage we find a couple things: 1 All power or Authority in heaven and earth" had been given to Jesus at that time; When was that time? 2The command was to make disciples(students); Baptize them; and to teach them to observe all that was commanded.
You: "You take up for us in a lot of things, but then you are against us too, which is all over the place, you can't do both...it's not of any type of order, just as you see fit to express how you view things and how you think things should be. Indecisive as it were, which is dangerous."
Sister T, First, how is it indecisive? Is it because I choose not to become a Witness? How is it all over the place? How is it out of order?
It is very much in order. I defend what is scriptural, and fight against what is not. Like the Boreons, I do not take what someone says is Truth because of some doctrine that requires me to look at someone a certain way. I pray and study and check to see it what I am being told is the truth.
NWT ACTS 17
10Immediately by night the brothers sent both Paul and Silas out to Be‧roe′a, and these, upon arriving, went into the synagogue of the Jews.11Now the latter were more noble‐minded than those in Thes‧sa‧lo‧ni′ca, for they received the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily as to whether these things were so.
Sister T, you will never know if something is right or wrong if you are depending on someone else to define it for you. Nor will you find it true or not, if you only examine what they present. It must be thoroughly researched with much prayer.
Example: I could not tell a Catholic Priest that the Trinity doesnt exist. He is taught that all the so called Church Fathers have done the research and they are accurate in thier belief. He is taught all of thier arguments and given their information to read. He will not entertain studying anything comming from any other source. To top it off, he has the Pope who is said to have all authority and the only interpretor of scripture. Papal Authority. If he goes against these teachings he is considered a "heretic" "apostate".
The same condition exists with the Jehovahs Witnesses. You could never take a borean approach. If you did and found something incorrect,you are not allowed to speak out about it. If you do, and persist at it, you will be disfellowshiped and considered "apostate".
"Persons who deliberately spread #stubbornly hold to and speak about# teachings contrary to Bible truth as taught by Jehovah's Witnesses are apostates." Pay Attention to Yourself and to All the Flock p.94
Now because you quoted so many scriptures, I will address them in this way due to the context in which they were given.
There is a term; it is called "Justification Doctrine". Justification Doctrine is a teaching of formulated scriptures to Justify the position taken in regards to identity and authority. This doctrine is used to assert that one is always correct, identitified as correct by the scriptures; identified in scripture. Its formula also contains scripture generally used to show others incorrect and suggest that only until they become a member of the same doctrine, they shall be lost or condemned.
Sister T, this is another reason why some look at the Witnesses as a "cult" in the negative sense. For the Witnesses use this type Doctrine.
Example: in 1931 based on Isaiha 43:10 name was chosen. Although this passage of scripture was clearly talking about the nation of Israel the Witnesses teach that the scripture pertains to them and was a prophecy about a latter people that would be called by the name Jehovah Witnesses. It is also part of what is called "Replacement Doctrine' that teaches that Israel and the Jews were rejected and replaced with a spiritual Israel. The Witnesses claim that by scripture, they are the 'Spiritual Israel". Many of the early and later writings of the WTBS spend a lot of time rehearsing in the ears and minds of the JWS that they are the chosen and are of Biblical prohecy based on the name.
Now a play on word: If I name myself Carl, and tell the world I am Carl I will be called Carl by the world. However, If I do not name myself at all, the question becomes what would the world call me?
Now Jehovahs Witnesses in their writings have even tried to make claim that their religion is of the most ancient religious groups, dating back even farther than Jewry. They make claim that JWS history dates back 6000 years all the way back to Adam and Eve. Here is the quote:
" One of his sons is referred to as being a Witness. Please read Hebrews 11:4, please, Lois. You do have the King James Version don't you?"
So let us look at Hebrews 11:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.
Now pay close attention to how this reads. It does not say, infer, or imply that Abel was a witness, it states that Abel, through his offering obtained a witness from God, and that God testified of his gifts. So God was witness of Abels righteousness in his offering and his gifts.
The writing goes on to say, that Noah was the second in the line of Witnesses.
Jehovahs Witnesses In The Divine Purpose page 7. The Title of the chapter; A People with the Most Ancient History.
Question: What about Adam and Eve thenselves? They definitely would be Witnesses, for they not only "witnessed" all, but caused the fall. So we see that because "witness" was not mentioned when talking about them, then they couldnt be witnesses.
Logic: Because they are mentioned in association with "witness" they are the begining of the organization of Jehovahs Witnesses, because the Witness of Jehovah. What a word play huh? Not to mention He was not know by that name at that time.
Another Quetion: Was John the Baptist a Jehovahs Witness?
John 1:15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Does not the scriptures say the John bear witness of the Light and isnt the Light Jesus Christ? So is then John a Jesus's Witness?
What about the Apostles, especially Paul:
2 Corinthians 4:5
For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
So at anytime, someone could come along, start an organization, call it " Jeus's Witnesses" create a doctrine and justify it by scripture. When approached by opposers, they could easily use scripture and say they will never understand it because the "god of this world has blinded them" and then give them:
John 5:39- 40
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
There you have it. The beginning of Justification Doctrine.
Thus we should all speak in agreement per the Bible,
1 Cor. 1:10 "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that YOU should all speak in agreement, and that there should not be divisions among YOU, but that YOU may be fitly united in the same mind and in the same line of thought"
Who are united the world over? It's only one, Jehovah's Witnesses!!
As relates to the scripture, we have no argument. However, your comment: "Who are united the world over? It's only one, Jehovah's Witnesses!!
There are several organizations united all over the world. You are correct, there is only 1 Jehovahs Witness Organization, they do speak with one mind etc. That is primarily becaue anyone who disagrees is cast out. Now that is not a bad thing, and is the way it should be done to prevent division.
Seventh Day Adventists are organized all over the world. They too have corrected doctrines.
Mormons are United all over the world.
You may not know this but so are Baptists and a few others.
There are also the organizations splintered from the Witneses that are organized worldwide. They do not have the effectiveness of the JWS in distribution of literature because the WTBS which was run by Rutherford, was retained by the Later called, Jehovas Witnesses.
You do also know, that some of your European brothers who dissassociated themselves with the WTBS still call themselves Jehovahs Witnesses dont you? They are not however, recognized by the WTBS.
Now I will leave you with this thought Sister T. The most dangerous thing about Justification Doctrine, and being taught that no one else has truth but you; other than giving you a false sense of security and authority, is that it prevents you from being able to properly identify friend from foe. An example from the scriptures:
49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.
Now it is evident that John felt that because he and the others followed and were instructed by Christ directly, that this man was against them and out of order for doing the things he was doing. It is also obvious, that this one "believed" in Christ and was approved as evidenced by the casting out of devils etc. How do we know this?
13 Then certain of the vagabond Jews, exorcists, took upon them to call over them which had evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, We adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preacheth.
14 And there were seven sons of one Sceva, a Jew, and chief of the priests, which did so.
15 And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?
16 And the man in whom the evil spirit was leaped on them, and overcame them, and prevailed against them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded.
So this one that didnt belong to their "group" was in fact of the "faith". It should be noted that this one talked about is nowehere else mentioned in the Bible.
So Sister T, yes I do defend the Witnesses on things that are scriptural and will continue to do so. And yes, I will continue to question things that are not or seem not to be scriptural. I will also settle to agree to disagree, for like I have stated, I am not against you, I just disagree with some of the Doctrines.
Have A Good Day Sister T
ANSWER: Hello Rev. Darryl Murphy,
I see you have TONS of time on your hands. I thought you said you only liked to write to Bro. Grunbaum? What reason do I owe these super long responses to? Especially since there really is no point...would you not agree? What's the point? Like you said, we will not agree, I will never agree with you on the things we discussed here, which you already know, so are you trying to convince other people to doubt us? I know you said you are not against us, but you aren't for us either, otherwise you'd be a JW yourself. So therefore, you are against us.
What did Jesus say? There's only two roads, everybody is on one of those two roads, they are either on the Broad road leading to destruction or the narrow road leading to life. (Matt 7:13,14) Since true followers would be on the narrow road obviously, then when Jesus said this: "He that is not on my side is against me, and he that does not gather with me scatters. (Matt. 12:30). Then take a look around and see who's scattered and who is not...JW's aren't scattered, our beliefs are of one mind as the Bible said they should be. (1 Cor. 1:10) Anything other than that is scatter! Go tell Jesus about Justification Doctrine, the bible said that about being of one mind, not JW's. JW's just follow the Bible. And people who don't want to go along with the Bible if it inconveniences them, make up their own rules to justify their actions, now that's what's a Justification Doctrine.
If I was wrong about the Baptist church, then OK....but honestly, I don't care when it started, it's not of God so it doesn't matter, it's going to be gone soon anyway. I'm not trying to be mean, I really am not, but I am a direct person, and I don't baby or beat around the bush, please forgive me if I offend you, but anything outside of what the Bible teaches is teachings of Demons, and that includes the Baptist. Now we are on a forum regarding questions to JW's and just because we have some on here who should not be on here, but should be on the Critics page, then the responses you get from true JW's will be regarding the truthfulness and rightness of JW's exclusively. Why wouldn't that be the case seeing how you are on a forum for questions to JW's.....
There is no other true Religion, there is only one and it's Jehovah's Witnesses. One Faith, One God (Eph 4:5,6) There is nothing anyone can ever say to convince my Bible trained conscience any other way, the Bible speaks for itself! Notice I said The Bible!
Jehovah's people who include the GB who dispense food at the proper time has insight that provides understanding that is in harmony with the Bible, cover to cover. The things that JW's accomplish in their ministry commands that Jehovah God is backing it. No human organization could do it without Jehovah's backing....and none are, so all the disputes and all the Oh it's not that way doesn't mean a thing, not to me anyway. The Bible speaks of these things does it not? Well then it stands to reason that there is someone today who is serving God according to his will.
The Bible demands that there is, as it's not only a book of the past, but of the present and future. So then since there has to be a people for God's name, as the Bible clearly says it is, then they are in this world somewhere, are they not? If you dispute that, then you dispute the Bible as a book of prophecy coming from God. If you don't believe in the Bible, then that's another story...but the Bible clearly says God has a people for his name, (Acts 15:14)it clearly says there will be a Great Tribulation (Matt 24:21) and there will be survivors of the Great Tribulation who don't just pop up out of no where but have already washed their robes clean in the blood of the lamb beforehand, (Rev.7:14) it clearly says that people will live on the earth forever.(Ps. 37:29)
So that means that those people are somewhere on this earth right now, so who are living according to the Bible in all aspects, it's none other then Jehovah's Witnesses. The fact that we're hated and lied on so much, speaks volumes to Jesus' prophecies. I mean you wouldn't be here if that were not the case. How many opposers are on the Catholic forum of All Experts disputing their doctrine to the degree people are over here doing it? They may be on the critics page, but on the Catholic one, I haven't seen any. Are you over there telling those Fathers, as they call themselves, how wrong they are for teaching the trinity and purgatory and telling them about the Spanish Inquisition and so forth? I would like to know. But yet you are over here, not the critics page, but here, complaining ever so smoothly about how wrong we are though aren't you. It's not a coincidence, believe that.
What you don't understand and anyone else who, I'm sorry to say, is in blackness, doesn't see is that understanding prophecies incorrectly has nothing to do with basic Bible truths
Every so called Christian religion in the World goes to Church and in some form or another believe all people go either to heaven or hell, souls never die, Jesus is God. I bet you every Baptist person wears a cross or has one. (Ex. 20:4,5). You yourself call yourself a Reverend, (Matt 23:8-11). It doesn't change the fact that Church members and so called saved people are committing some of the most heinous crimes does it? If you attend a large Church function among people you've never met, tell me can you leave your wallet full of money and expect it to still be there when you return some hours later? Nope! Who do Church members look to for hope, is it God and his son Jesus or is it the President, or the Pope, did you vote? If you did then that's your answer. If you didn't, it still doesn't matter because you are not with us as a people. No matter how much lip service a person does means nothing because actions speak louder than words. Putting trust in nobles...brings no salvation...none! (Ps. 146:3) Voting means you put your trust in nobles, I don't care how a person wants to twist it around to it being something different then what it really is.
No matter how many Bible prophecies were misunderstood, it doesn't change the fact that the Bible doesn't teach those things mentioned, it doesn't change the fact that JW's won't go to war and kill their fellow man, it doesn't change the fact that we look to Jehovah and Jesus for our salvation, not men, it doesn't change the fact that we are united the world over, it doesn't change the fact that we aren't paid and we are not going bankrupt like some high ranking religions are claiming today. It doesn't change the irrefutable evidence that God is with Jehovah's Witnesses ONLY. So my response to 1975 is this: SO WHAT!
If people only served God for a date then they needed to leave! Jesus talked about this with the soil and seeds illustration (Luke 8:11,15)
Serving God isn't about a date, there will soon be no reason for keeping a date as we will live forever, forever doesn't need a date. If you love Jehovah with all your heart, a date means nothing because you have already resolved in your heart that you will serve the Sovereign of this Universe, Jehovah the Almighty God, forever. So when it comes, it comes, but make no mistake, it will come! Being curious about it is only natural. It still doesn't change anything about a true JW's resolve!!
So to me when people speak about failed this and failed that about Bible prophecies, I just laugh, it's of no concern to me!! That's why people who are not really JW's can't really speak on or about our religion. I don't care if they've been an Elder for 50 years, lived at Bethel and then leave, if they leave then they lost their faith and let themselves be led astray, thus they left because they were not of our sort, so it was just a matter of time until their true heart condition manifested outwardly, so good riddance! We must take note of heart qualities, not just outward show. Merely keeping up a routine of worship does not always reveal what is really going on in someone’s heart. (Jeremiah 17:9, 10; Matthew 15:7-9)
Satan wasn't always Satan, he used to be a high ranking Cherub in Jehovah's service, he use to be in the truth (Ez. 28:13,15; John 8:44) Jehovah would not have chosen him, to be in the Garden of Eden if he was wicked from the start. Jehovah made everything good not wicked (Gen. 1:31) That Cherub became wicked, he changed, he left Jehovah's way.
Jesus prayed all night to Jehovah before choosing the 12 apostles, (Luke 6:12-16) so Judas wasn't always bad, he started off good because of the fact he was chosen to begin with, but he turned traitor, so just because someone leaves doesn't mean we are wrong, it means they turned away and are wrong!
1 John 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of our sort; for if they had been of our sort, they would have remained with us. But [they went out] that it might be shown up that not all are of our sort."
Being a Jehovah's Witness means more then the name, you know. It's a way of life. (Acts 9:2) It's a love of Jehovah and only God draws a person, as Jesus said no one can even come to him (Jesus) unless the Father (Jehovah) draws him, (John 6:44). So if a person is not drawn, then it's a wrap. And I suggest a change of heart and start seeking truth from God instead of from self! (that's to anyone). Even a person who is a JW may not be serving Jehovah with a complete heart, that's why the Bible tells us, we all have an accounting to God,(Heb 4:13; Prov. 15:3) the one who endures to the end will be saved (Matt 24:13) within Jehovah's arrangement. Not outside of it.
Do you think any person who was not in Noah's ark lived? No! What about the surrounding nations of the Israelites? Did they prevail against them when they were being obedient to God? NO! Jehovah has always had a people, and it's no different now just because we're in 2013 and there are a million different religions....there were a million others back then too, did any of those others have God's approval? NO! How many had God's approval back then, ONE! How many have his approval now, ONE!
Yes I know sect is used in the Bible, people called The Way a sect back in Bible times, and that proves what? Nothing, we are still not a sect. Just like they call us sect today, they did the same back then too...and? Does that make it so? NO! Satan told Eve she wouldn't die, (Gen. 3:4) is she here? NO!
Being all over the world doesn't denote being truly united all over the world, it's a huge difference. Do you know what's going on in the Churches the world over in your Baptist faith? You can't tell me you do...you can't tell me that the same teachings are being taught in all Baptist faiths for the simple fact you have some Baptist that believe in the Trinity and some who don't...So that can be squashed! No other religion can and will ever achieve what we have because we are backed by the only true living God, who's name is Jehovah (Ps. 83:18). The Glory goes to Jehovah, not to men!
I know many Witnesses left, as I said previously, good riddance, what does that mean? If they left, then they are not JW's anymore, they scattered. So what's your point?
Believe me Mr. Murphy, I strictly go by Bible Teachings and any who deviate from the Bible is eliminated as being true, so your Justification Doctrine holds no weight this way. I don't care what any person says, the Bible has the last say so...and you can't prove any of the lies being taught in the churches today by the Bible, that's why a lot of Church people think the Bible is contradictory because what they are being taught in Church doesn't coincide with what the Bible teaches, and all that they say is, it's a mystery, don't question God. Why? Because it doesn't make a lick of sense. That's why.
What you are not seeing is we didn't start jack! Jehovah created humans, just because some deviated from him doesn't mean his purposes have stopped, just because Satan has turned most people away from Jehovah doesn't mean he no longer has any servants whosoever, there has always been faithful ones through out history, small as it may have been,(like Noah only 8 at one time on earth) it always was! So yes, Abel was a person who was true and loyal to Jehovah God, and we today continue in that path so we have NOT STARTED ANY NEW RELIGION! Go tell that to Jesus, he's the founder of Christianity, our founder is Jesus Christ, as we follow today, Jesus was a faithful and true Witness of his Father Jehovah, and we today as Jehovah's people are continuing on from there, no new religion.
That's all I have time for....you can pick all this apart if you want and write a million trillion reasons why you don't agree with it. But again, my replies are the same, the Bible has the last word and Jehovah is backing us and us only! You are in a JW forum expect bias towards JW's who are true ones! That would be me! People better wake up, before it's too late, "Search for Jehovah, you people, while he may be found. Call to him while he proves to be near." (Isaiah 55:6)
Ez. 38:23 "And I shall certainly magnify myself and sanctify myself and make myself known before the eyes of many nations; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.’"
Have a great day Reverend Darryl Murphy,
P.S. I'm sorry I forgot to put a scripture in that I wanted to share with you regarding where you said: "So you are incorrect Sister T, the Bibe never uses the word "sect' in the negative.
Gal. 5:19-26"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, and they are fornication, uncleanness, loose conduct, 20 idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions, sects,
21 envies, drunken bouts, revelries, and things like these. As to these things I am forewarning YOU, the same way as I did forewarn YOU, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s kingdom.
22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, long‐suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self‐control. Against such things there is no law.24Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus impaled the flesh together with its passions and desires. 25 If we are living by spirit, let us go on walking orderly also by spirit.26Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another.
So as we can clearly see from this scripture, it clearly does mention sects in a very bad light and we are not such!
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Oh Sister T..Well let me fist answer your questions then address Galatians 5.
You: I see you have TONS of time on your hands. I thought you said you only liked to write to Bro. Grunbaum? What reason do I owe these super long responses to?
1. I actually do not have Tons of time on my hands. I am a full time Minister and spend most of my time in study and of course discussing scripture.
2. I believe I stated I generally only write to Grunbaum because he like I are Greek/Hebrew scholars and we can talk as such with respect, although we too disagree. I also admit I rather enjoy Brother Grunbaum.
3. The long responses are because you leave a lot to be responded too.
You: I will never agree with you on the things we discussed here, which you already know, so are you trying to convince other people to doubt us?
Sister T, No! I am not trying to convince others to doubt the Witnesses. If you have paid attention to what I have been saying, the only thing I am trying to convince others to see is that the Witnesses are Christians inspite of what they have been taught. The other dicsussions are just based on what is disagreed with as regards JW theology and doctrine.
Now as far as me being on the Catholic side of the forum etc...No offense to the Catholic readers, but as they say..."been there done that and its a waste of my time" We cant get past "Mother Mary" let alone anything else. Besides, I am one of the "experts" on the Biblical Studies side. and recieve questions there. Now as you say, me being on the Witness forum is not by coincedence. I know exactly why I am here. It just that you dont.
You: Being all over the world doesn't denote being truly united all over the world, it's a huge difference. Do you know what's going on in the Churches the world over in your Baptist faith? You can't tell me you do...you can't tell me that the same teachings are being taught in all Baptist faiths for the simple fact you have some Baptist that believe in the Trinity and some who don't...So that can be squashed!
Well Sister T you are wrong again. There is no such thing as a Non Trinitarian Baptist Church. And yes, I can tell you what every Baptist Church is teaching worldwide. The lessons are standardized. The same subject that is being taught in China is the same as in Africa which is the same in America etc. etc. Now what will differ is the sermon on Sunday Morning. But since you have very little knowledge of what is really going on in the Church you do not know this. You probably dont even know what the purpose of Sunday Morning Service is and that it is scriptural. but we wont get into that.
You: No other religion can and will ever achieve what we have because we are backed by the only true living God, who's name is Jehovah (Ps. 83:18). The Glory goes to Jehovah, not to men!
Wrong again! To keep this short, I will give you two that have accomplished more...Seventh Day Adventists, and Mormons. By the way, they both feel they are backed by the only True and Living God...and you do also know neither of the two are Trinitarians. Funny thing, most of your doctrine came from the Seventh Day Adventists.
Now I know you dont care, but that is part of the problem. Because you dont care, you dont know, and it causes you to speek incorrectly.
You: the Bible has the last say so...and you can't prove any of the lies being taught in the churches today by the Bible, that's why a lot of Church people think the Bible is contradictory because what they are being taught in Church doesn't coincide with what the Bible teaches, and all that they say is, it's a mystery, don't question God. Why? Because it doesn't make a lick of sense. That's why.
Youre batting 100 here. Wrong again!
There are no people in Churches saying the Bible contradicts itself, No one is taught that 'its a mystery' dont question God. Wait, that is incorrect, the Catholic Church does teach its a mystery and not to question God. You dont see that in others. Now it is taught that it is a mystery to a "non-believer" for we know by scripture that to all who believe, all mysteries are revealed.
Now Sister T, in one of your posts you stated that no matter what the scriptural proofs etc. you were giving to a questioner, he would not accept it. But you need to understand that you are guilty of the same thing. You were provided definitions, scripture, the senses of the words etc...and still deny it. So much that you went looking for scripture to justify it. "Justification Doctrine". Problem is, what you are stating is out of context and has no revelance to what was being said...so now lets look at Galatians 5:19-20; Now I will fist write it in Greek, First by the Textus Receptus, and then By Westscott Hort, which is the source JWS base their NWT:
eidololatria, pharmakeia, echthra, eris, zelos, thymos,eritheia, dichostasia, hairesis
eidoloatria. pharmakia, ekhthrai, eris, zelos, thumoi. erithiai, dikhostasiai, aireseis
Now the focus word is "hairesis" "airesis' which translated is "Heresies"
NWT renders it 'sect"...so lets look at the meaning:
1) act of taking, capture: e.g. storming a city
2) choosing, choice
3) that which is chosen
4) a body of men following their own tenets (sect or party)
a) of the Sadducees
b) of the Pharisees
c) of the Christians
5) dissensions arising from diversity of opinions and aims
So now the NWT:
idolatry, practice of spiritism, enmities, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, contentions, divisions,sects,
So in order to get proper understanding, we must look at the definition of the word, and the context of the scripture
So literally the scripture is saying to stay away from 'bodies of men following there own tenets, and dissentions caused by differing opinions and agendas"
So again Sister T you are wrong. The Bible is not calling a "sect" bad, what the sect is doing identifies them as "good" or "bad".
Jehovahs Witnesses are a "Sect' of Millenarian Restoration Christians
Millennialism: a belief held by some Christian denominations that there will be a Golden Age or Paradise on Earth in which "Christ will reign" for 1000 years prior to the final judgment and future eternal state (the "World to Come" of the New Heavens and New Earth). This belief is derived primarily from the Book of Revelation 20:1–6.
Restorationism = the belief that Christianity should be restored along the lines of what is known about the apostolic early church, which restorationists see as the search for a more pure and more ancient form of the religion.
Christian: Follower of Christ
Now, there is nothing wrong with being a member of this sect. I also share the same beliefs. All the theology and doctrine needs to be examined, questioned, compared to scripture to see if it is scriptural. All that is found not to be in harmony with scripture and in line with what Jesus and the Apostles taught, needs to be thrown out.
One of the things I like most about the Jehovahs Witnesses is that they had and have no problem with reviewing things and comparing it with scripture to find out if it is in harmony. Some of the many doctrine changes in the WTBS has been because of this. Some things have been correct, and some..well lets just say they havent got there yet. Point is, they and other "restorationists" have done what many traditionalists have failed and or refused to do; Put it to the test of Gods Word.
About 10 years ago, I was asked to give a Bible Class on the Origins of Christmas. I was overly shocked that I was aked to do so becuase a few years prior, the Church lost half the congregation because the Pastor would not decorate the Church, put up a Christmas Tree and Preached a sermon on how Christmas was not a Christian Holiday.
Anyway, the lesson title was in the form of a question " Should A Christian Celebrate Christmas?" I actually gave a simular lesson on 'Easter"...The Pastor said to me..."Son, its hard being like you, questioning and researching every doctrine. I have lost many members doing that, but dont worry about the results, go out there and tell the truth".
Why did I share this story? Because Witnesses have done the same thing and it is admirable, responsible, and in strict accordance with the scriptures to do so.
Sister T, I have been put out of many Churches for teaching against traditional doctrine, so its not a thing where I only question Witnesses, In fact, it is not the Witnesses I question, it is some of the Doctrines. There is a BIG BIG DIFFERENCE!
Again, Good Day Sister T
Rev. Darryl Murphy
Hello Rev. Darryl Murphy,
I guess this will just keep going on and on, because we'll never, ever agree. So let's get this party started:
You said: Well Sister T you are wrong again. There is no such thing as a Non Trinitarian Baptist Church. And yes, I can tell you what every Baptist Church is teaching worldwide. The lessons are standardized. The same subject that is being taught in China is the same as in Africa which is the same in America etc. etc. Now what will differ is the sermon on Sunday Morning. But since you have very little knowledge of what is really going on in the Church you do not know this. You probably don't even know what the purpose of Sunday Morning Service is and that it is scriptural. but we wont get into that.
Well you just contradicted yourself, because if you are a Baptist Reverend, and you don't even believe your own religious doctrine, you just proved my point right there, not united.
But let's go a little further, just a little, not a lot. You make the broadest assumptions ever, you say since I have very little knowledge of what really is going on in the Church that I do not know this. WRONG! Do you know me personally Reverend Darryl Murphy? I can answer that, No. So then for you to assume, because that's all you really can do, what I know is a bit much, don't you agree? How do you know what I know? Please, please I'd love to hear this one....do share.
As I stated being all over the world does not denote being UNITED all over the world, if it did, you wouldn't have the Baptist World alliance and the Southern Baptist. The Southern Baptist would not have wanted to separate from the BWA if doctrinal views were all in unity, but because of the disunity, with the BWA being blamed for their liberalism inregards to doctrinal things, such as tolerance of Homosexuality, among a few other things. You are an example of my very point Sir. And is why I said you were all over the place with what you believe. And how do you know that I don't know Baptist who do not believe in the Trinity? I do know of some and is why I said what I said. You yourself said you didn't, so out of your own mouth you prove me right, which also shows not being in union, not being of one mind set. Oh and by the way, just a side note. My paternal grandfather was a Baptist Preacher....so no, let's not get in it. Actually I will not get into it. That's all I will say.
You said: Wrong again! To keep this short, I will give you two that have accomplished more...Seventh Day Adventists, and Mormons. By the way, they both feel they are backed by the only True and Living God...and you do also know neither of the two are Trinitarians. Funny thing, most of your doctrine came from the Seventh Day Adventists."
We go strictly by the Bible, Christianity was founded by Jesus Christ and that's who we follow closely (2 Pet 2:21). Jesus Christ was directed by his Father Jehovah, as Jesus said he only speaks what his father tells him to speak. (John 8:28; John 5:19,30; John 7:18) So we end up back with what I first said, Jehovah, Jesus, we continue on down to today. Nothing new. Most people who are in a religion believe that their religion is the true one, otherwise they would not be in it, so you saying that means nothing. But the fruits from ours PROVE it. That's the difference. Do we love our neighbors as ourselves? Do we have love among ourselves? Yes we do. Does our life style prove that we live by the Bible? Yes. Those are facts that are irrefutable. You can't compare us to anyone else, you can say I'm wrong all day long, it still means nothing.
Example: If I say the moon orbits the earth, and you come back and say, You're wrong. Does it mean anything? Nope....so just because you keep saying I'm wrong, doesn't mean anything because I was not wrong. Which I showed.
You said: "Now I know you dont care, but that is part of the problem. Because you dont care, you dont know, and it causes you to speek incorrectly."
Now who's wrong? See there you go assuming again...something that really messes you up. Not caring and not knowing is two different things entirely. You do realize that a person can know something, and still not care about it. You do realize that don't you? Plus I said I didn't care because it didn't matter because it wasn't going to be around for much longer anyway, that's what I said. There's false teachings in your religion, some of which you don't even agree with, so proving my point once again. God is a God not of disorder (1Cor 14:33) He also said we must worship in TRUTH, (John 4:23,24) So if what your denomination is teaching is not Scriptural then it's not worshipping in truth, so any worship of said denomination as a whole, the worship is in untruth. Remember the Bible says, One Faith (Eph. 4:5) Guilty by association, you will go down with the false teachings as you are with them. Reminds me of an illustration once given during a talk. It's too long but I'll paraphrase.
A Farmer has this pet wolf he raised from a pup, but wild wolves would sometimes come and try to eat his sheep. And the Farmer would get his shot gun and shoot at the wolves. Well as time went on and the wolf started to envy the other wolves roaming around freely doing as they please, so one day he decided to join them. He left and was away for three seasons, but as time went on and food became scarce and the leader of the Pack decided it was time to go eat some of the farmers sheep, the wolf puppy cried out loudly, no they are my friends. But he was told that he was one of them now and to do as he was told. The wolf pup reluctantly followed as they ran to the farmers place. The farmer got his rifle and started shooting the wolves, soon he was face to face with the pup he had raised, and the pup said, "don't shoot me, I'm your friend, don't you remember me?" The Farmer looked at him and saw how matted his fur was and how he smelled like the rest of the pack and said "I don't know you" and shot him dead. And the moral of this story is, when Armageddon comes and Jesus is doing his destruction work, will Jesus recognize you?
Now this was a talk for JW's, but I say it to say, who you run with is who you will be recognized as being with.
Matt 7:21-23 "Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. 22 Many will say to me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and expel demons in your name, and perform many powerful works in your name?’ 23 And yet then I will confess to them: I never knew YOU! Get away from me, YOU workers of lawlessness."
Please do not take my words out of context. I most definitely care otherwise I would not be on here to answer questions, if I didn't care I wouldn't be out in the snow and rain trying to help people out of the blackness, as I said this is about lives, this isn't something on the side, this is reality. It's serious and I don't take it lightly. I care about people, infact I love people and wish they'd let God examine their hearts and come to an accurate knowledge of truth instead of relying on their own understanding (Prov. 3:5.6) and that includes you, you seem like a nice guy, but you just are not letting your heart be towards the true God, because you are a Scholar you are letting your worldly wisdom lead you into pride. Let that go, ask Jehovah to lead you to the truth, there is only one Faith, you have time now to live. Why die when you don't have to. I don't get any brownie points or anything for being here or going door to door, it's about love of people, not wanting them to die, just as God doesn't.
2 Peter 3:9 "Jehovah is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with YOU because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance."
You said: There are no people in Churches saying the Bible contradicts itself, No one is taught that 'its a mystery' don't question God. Wait, that is incorrect, the Catholic Church does teach its a mystery and not to question God. You don't see that in others. Now it is taught that it is a mystery to a "non-believer" for we know by scripture that to all who believe, all mysteries are revealed.
See there you go assuming again, how do you know that there is no people in Churches saying the Bible contradicts itself? That is not correct at all. I know of people who are in Church and want to leave Church, not that they want to be a JW, but they just want to leave the Church because of the hypocrisy and because of the contradictions they say are in the Bible. I know of ones who have specifically said, they don't believe in the Bible because it contradicts itself, some have even left the Church and became Atheist because of it. I know you are not that naive now are you?
Yes, and I know of people specifically who because of asking questions that the Pastor could not answer told them it was a mystery, that God was a mystery and it wasn't for them to get to know the workings of God and that they should not question God. They were actually Baptist, not even Catholic. You can't just assume....as I said before you don't know what is being taught in your Baptist Faith the world over, this just proves my point again.
I also know of people who because a tragedy struck and they could not pay their Church dues was kicked out until they could pay...those people ended up becoming JW's though, and never looked back. What faith were they? Baptist.
You said this: Now Sister T, in one of your posts you stated that no matter what the scriptural proofs etc. you were giving to a questioner, he would not accept it. But you need to understand that you are guilty of the same thing. You were provided definitions, scripture, the senses of the words etc...and still deny it. So much that you went looking for scripture to justify it. "Justification Doctrine". Problem is, what you are stating is out of context and has no revelance to what was being said...so now lets look at Galatians 5:19-20; Now I will fist write it in Greek, First by the Textus Receptus, and then By Westscott Hort, which is the source JWS base their NWT:....
You are not correct in your assumption here, that person did not provide any Scriptures to prove anything, all they did was give a definition of a word that was taken out of context to begin with, so I was not wrong, and I totally disagree with that. That's why I asked the person before if they even read the scriptures I listed because they never made mention of them. So no they did not come back with any proof of their trying to prove a false belief. Plus as you stated before how could you know about the person who questioned me that they had been doing so for a long time, and I said that's why you shouldn't speak on things you know not. That still applies!
You said: So in order to get proper understanding, we must look at the definition of the word, and the context of the scripture
So literally the scripture is saying to stay away from 'bodies of men following there own tenets, and dissentions caused by differing opinions and agendas"
So again Sister T you are wrong. The Bible is not calling a "sect" bad, what the sect is doing identifies them as "good" or "bad".
Gal 5:19-26 speaks about the works of the flesh...those works, which were listed, are all things that will keep you from inheriting the Kingdom, the Bible said, and sects
was one of the things that was listed as a work of the flesh. Because people were leaving The Way or Christianity and forming their own way, a sect. And that was considered as being wrong, so yes, sects were used in a negative light in the Bible, if you are doing something wrong, that automatically makes it be in a negative light.
The Greek word "hairesis" from which comes the English word "heresy". As you put yourself heresies, and you think that doesn't denote negativity? Are you serious? Really? And yes when translated it means choice or "that which is chosen," hence "a body of men separating themselves from others and following their own tenets"
So if someone "breaks off" or "breaks away" and is following their own tenets,
then that's not good. See that's what I mean by trying to prove us wrong, you thus are going against clear Bible teachings. Not a very wise thing to do.
The founder of Christianity, Jesus Christ, prayed that unity might prevail among his followers (John 17:21), and the apostles were vitally interested in preserving the oneness of the Christian congregation. (1 Cor 1:10; Jude 17-19) Disunity in belief could give rise to fierce disputing, dissension, and even enmity. (Compare Acts 23:7-10.) So sects were to be avoided, being among the works of the flesh. (Ga 5:19-21) Christians were warned against becoming promoters of sects or being led astray by false teachers. (Acts 20:28; 2 Tim 2:17,18; 2 Peter 2:1) In his letter to Titus, the apostle Paul directed that, after being admonished twice, a man who continued promoting a sect be rejected, evidently meaning that he be expelled from the congregation. (Titus 3:10) Those who refused to become involved in creating divisions within the congregation or in supporting a particular faction would distinguish themselves by their faithful course and give evidence of having God’s approval.<<End Quote>>
Definition of Christian: "The religion based on the person and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth, or its beliefs and practices." So we are true Christians not a sect of Christianity. It doesn't matter if the world or philosophers view us as a sect. Jesus and Jehovah don't. Just like in Galatians this is a sect that moved away from Christianity it's a negative thing to break away from true Christianity therefore to be a sect is a negative thing. The Bible in Galatians is telling us it's negative, it's breakaway ideas from true Christianity. According to Jehovah, Jesus and ourselves we are not a sect of Christianity.
It's good to reject unscriptural teachings and applaud you for standing up for that, but again, you can't be straddling the fence, you can't eat from both tables, as a mother would tell her children, and no disrespect intended towards you as I know you are a grown man, but doing something almost, some, or half way is just as good as not doing it at all. If you are going to do something do it completely.
A teacher asks a student that is turning in his homework, "did you finish your homework" and the student says, "somewhat" or "almost" will the teacher accept that? Not any that I know of. They are told to take it back and finish it. Might as well not have done it, it doesn't count! A woman can't be somewhat pregnant, a person can't be a little brain dead, you either are or you are not. Same with Jehovah, you can't be somewhat, he demands all. Exclusive devotion (Exodus 20:2-5, Mark 12:28-30; Luke 4:8) Think about that please, really think about it.
Have a great day Rev. Darryl Murphy