Jehovah`s Witness/FDS Cont. II

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Question
QUESTION: Hello Brother Eddie G; again I thank you for your most informative response. In looking over the information there are a few things I would like to briefly go over before proceeding further:

1. C.T Russell

In your response to me you stated:

"As far as brother Russell is concern I haven't encountered any (official) statement saying that he's of the FDS class or The Slave, but rather he understood that the FDS was not a single person but a body, a class of people. Some though, those who thought of Brother Russell as "The Slave" eventually separated themselves (from the organization) when Russell died. What a way to "clean" the Organization!"


As far as Russell being "FDS" early Watchtowers (1919) record that although Russell  did not openly state he was the "FDS" he did so in private. Later information does show that at some point he did believe that the "FDS" included and went beyond just him as being so. It is also true that his followers, including his wife, did belief him to be the "Faithful and Wise Servant".


You quote: Interestingly enough the July 2013 stated that:

"6 ...During the decades leading up to 1914, C. T. Russell and his close associates did a work like that of John the Baptizer. That vital work involved restoring Bible truths. The Bible Students taught the true meaning of Christ’s ransom sacrifice, exposed the hellfire lie, and proclaimed the coming end of the Gentile Times."

This statement I find quite interesting. Elsewhere in your quotes from the Watchtower articles it implies that the decades equal 30 years up until 1914. This would cover a period between 1889-1914.

Now as we look at the Watchtowers statements we find:

1. True meaning of Christs Ransom Sacrifice: This view of the "Ransom Sacrifice" is not unique to Russell and in fact was taught to Russell during his association with "Adventist" (not to be confused with 7th Day Adventists). The doctrines of : Atonement, the ressurection, the soul are of the "adventist" movement. The "Invisible Parousia" is both "adventist and millerite or at least influenced by Millerite theology."

2. Hellfire Lie: The Truth about "hell" has always been known and is again not exlusive to the Witnesses or Russell. This again is an "adventist" doctrine. Sheol, Gehenna, Hades, the lake or pit of fire, are all places in mainstream Christianity that are encompassed in the word "Hell". Hell as a place of torment, comes from the Hebrew and Greek view of the divisions of hell.

Of course it is far easier to understand by using the words instead of one all encompasing word and leave the distinction to teaching, but we find even in using the words seperately, proper understanding and teaching is still required. One of the best examples is found at Luke 16:23-28. Let us examine the passages. For this I will use the NWT. In the KJV and others, where Hades appears in the NWT, 'Hell" appears in the KJV:

Luke 16:23-28 NWT

“Also, the rich man died and was buried.23And in Ha′des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz′a‧rus in the bosom [position] with him.24So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz′a‧rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire.’25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz′a‧rus correspondingly the injurious things. Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish.26And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and ​YOU​ people, so that those wanting to go over from here to ​YOU​ people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us.’27Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father,28for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment.

We see in these verses, Hades being described: 1. The grave: The rich man died and was buried. 2. A place of torment : "he existing in torments" 3. A place of blazing fire: " I am in anguish in this blazing fire".

Now, there is another detail that is sometimes missed: Let us look at verse 26:

"And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and ​YOU​ people,"

KJV

"And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us,"

This "chasm" or "gulf" is a divison in the "abode of the dead";Sheol. In Hebrew view, the side of the Gulf or Chasm where Lazurus was, is called "Paradise", where the righteous rest.

This is why it is said the understanding of the JWS of the words of Jesus to the sinner impaled are inaccurate:

NWT Luke 23:43
And he said to him: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.”

"Paradise Earth" had not been prepared yet, therefore the sinner would not be able to be there. It was not time yet for the "ressurections" in accordance with JW theology. We also know that Jesus was not speaking of a "future" event for he stated "today".

So was a "Lie" exposed, or just a more clear understanding by seperating the "terms used"? It is also evident, that more study was and is needed on this subject.

Finally the "end of the gentile times": This also is not a work exclusive to the JWS...in fact it was first started by a Baptist preacher; Miller, who Barbour was a student of,who Russell came into contact with and adopted the belief. It is true, Russell made adjustments to time tables etc., however the core belief was not originated or proclaimed by Russell and his followers first. However, Russell, because of his wealth, was able to obtain a printing company thereby allowing the information to be spread farther into the masses.

Now why this is of particular interest in this subject, is because as stated before, Russells beliefs are very different, other than some of the core doctrines. It is often stated that Russell is the founder of the Jehovahs Witnesses, however, this is not the case. It is Rutherford that is actually the founder, and who is responsible for many of the Witness beliefs today.

Also, what is very interesting, is that 1919 corresponds with Rutherford being accused of being an "autocrat" by the Bible Students and the sepetation taking place. Rutherford, changed almost all doctrines while under his leadership and adopted the name "Jehovahs Witnesses".

This brings us to this quote and questions:

"So, clearly, although one of the anointed, brother CT Russell was not of the Slave Class but "did a work like that of John the Baptizer."

1. By the standards of JWS and the fact that Russell held different beliefs, how can he be called "anointed"?

2. By those same standards, would he not be considered "apostate"?

3. John the Baptist preached the "Kingdom at hand", baptism for remission of sins, and the coming of Christ. How does this differ from anything done prior to Russell, for all these things were being done. It was theologies that were at odds.

So in regards to the "FDS", although you provided a lot of useful and informative information concerning the cleasing etc., my question of "cleansing" beginning in the 1990's was based on the fact that at 4 different points in history, the understanding of the FDS has changed:

1. Russell and followers believing Russell was the FDS.
2. Belief that the "FDS" is more than one person.
3. Belief the WTBS was the FDS
4. Now, the Governing Body is the FDS

So it stands to reason, that either the cleansing took place later than before believed, or that the cleansing is actually continual.

Let us look at the rest of the information:

My question was what happens with those that died before Christ. You responded:

Answer:

They are awaiting for this prophecy to be fulfilled (during the thousand year reign of Christ and his anointed class - 144,000)

That is, the "resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous" from among mankind.

Notice:

(Acts 24:15) “and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”

(John 5:28, 29) “Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

I would not disagree that there is definitely going to be a resurrection of the "righreous" and "unrighteous" for it is clearly stated in the Bible. However, could there be a need for revisiting the view on the "ressurection of the righteous" as believed by the JWS. The reason I state this is because of the seeming preference of "theology" rather than what seems to be stated in the scripture. Example:


You stated: Some of these righteous ones will receive what the Bible calls a "Better Resurrection".

(Hebrews 11:35) “Women received their dead by resurrection; but other [men] were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection. ”

The book of Hebrews  11th chapter is about faith and holds the testimony about those who have expressed faith. When reading Hebrews 11:35 in context what is being said is: There are women that have recieved their dead returned to this life; and there were those that  were persecuted that refused any type of rescue in order that they recieved the "better resurection; which is the resurrection of promise; eternal life.

Likewise when looking at Acts 24:15 and John 5:28-29 in context, we see that niether by expressing, implying or inference, is there a testimony of some being  ressurected as 'unjust" in the ressurection of the "just" for the purpose of second chance:

Acts 24:15

9With that the Jews also joined in the attack, asserting that these things were so.10And Paul, when the governor nodded to him to speak, answered:

“Knowing well that this nation has had you as judge for many years, I readily speak in my defense the things about myself,11as you are in a position to find out that for me it has not been more than twelve days since I went up to worship in Jerusalem;12and they found me neither in the temple arguing with anyone nor causing a mob to rush together, either in the synagogues or throughout the city.13Nor can they prove to you the things of which they are accusing me right now.14But I do admit this to you, that, according to the way that they call a ‘sect,’ in this manner I am rendering sacred service to the God of my forefathers, as I believe all the things set forth in the Law and written in the Prophets;15and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.16In this respect, indeed, I am exercising myself continually to have a consciousness of committing no offense against God and men.


Paul in defense of himself against the Jews that accused him, the Pharisees who also believed in a resurrection of the dead, is giving testimony of what he preached and how it is not a sin against God, for it is His Word, nor offence against man, who also believed in this thing.

Again, In John the 5th Chapter we see:

“Most truly I say to ​YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.26For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself.27And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is.28Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice29and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

Notice vs 29:and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment

A ressurection of "Judgement", not second chance.

Also note:

Hebrews 9
27And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment,28so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.

REv 20:12-15
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.13And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.14And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.15Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

So again, scripture does not appear to support a "ressurection" during the 1000 year reign, and the ressurections spoken of, are the same resurrections, just worded differently. All other interpretations appear as "theologic" explanations of "doctrine".

One of the most profound questions ever asked was :" What does the Bible Really Teach?"

So as Mainstream Christianity needs to review its doctrines, could it be, that the JWS should also do the same? This would be the continual "cleansing".  


Let us review the parable of the "wheat and tare" or weed". Now "tare" a form of Dornel, is a weedy eurasian grass, it resembles wheat, however its grains are black. The difference between the two generally cannot be distinguished until growth. So when we look at the parable:

NWT Matthew 23:24-30
Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field.25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left.26When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also.27So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’29He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, ​YOU​ uproot the wheat with them.30Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”

Now in the KJV it uses the word "tare" where "weed" is used in the NWT.  But when this illustration is looked at in context, it does not imply a specific "class" of people being "harvested", at least not what appears to be thought in JW theology. This more resembles the separation of the "sheep and goat".

Certain keys are given to unlock this parable for they testify of what will be harvested, how it will be handled, and when the "harvest" will happen.

So what do we see:

1. A seed is planted
2. A false or imposter seed is planted.
3. Growing season begins
4. Harvest time ( end of the season = end of time)
5. The seperation
6. The gathering and disposal of the "tare", "weed" by fire.
7. Gathering of the wheat and placement in the storehouse

The gathering and placement of the wheat in the store house is likened unto the placement of ones in the "New system of things".

Note what is said: NWT Matthew 25:31-34
31“When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne.32And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.33And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left.

34“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, ​YOU​ who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for ​YOU​ from the founding of the world

Now take notice of what is said about those who are at his left:
Matthew 25:46 ’46And these will depart into everlasting cutting‐off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Now it should be noted, the where the NWT states "cutting-off", In the original Greek text, the word "Kolasis" appears, which means: Correction, Punishment, Penalty. So the more accurate rendering is found to be "everlasting Punishment".


Finally, let us take note of what is said at Rev: 20

11And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it. From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.13And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.14And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.15Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire

So as we read the scriptures in context, it paints of different picture than that of theology. So we find that there may be cause for review.

Brother Eddie G; it seems as if there is no quick way to discuss this, and is a lenghthy but most enjoyable and reavealing topic. For the sake of lenghth I will address the illustration of the Faithful and Wise servant in another response. I will entitle it-FDS and the book of Matthew. I will also address other scriptures quoted for review.

As always, it is most enjoyable and informative discussing scripture with you. I eagerly await your response.

Rev. Darryl Murphy

ANSWER: Wow... there's a lot of "stuff" you put on this latest post of yours Darryl.

But in the interest of time - or shortness of time, I'd like to just ask you these simple questions and come back to tackle the rest later.

You said:

>>A resurrection of "Judgement", not second chance.

Also note:

Hebrews 9
27And as it is reserved for men to die once for all time, but after this a judgment,28so also the Christ was offered once for all time to bear the sins of many; and the second time that he appears it will be apart from sin and to those earnestly looking for him for [their] salvation.

REv 20:12-15
12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds.13And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.14And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire.15Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.

So again, scripture does not appear to support a "ressurection" during the 1000 year reign, and the ressurections spoken of, are the same resurrections, just worded differently. All other interpretations appear as "theologic" explanations of "doctrine".<<

Based on the scriptures you've just quoted, if "A resurrection of "Judgement", [is] not [a] second chance."

How are the resurrected "dead" ones to be "judged individually according to their deeds"?

Are they going to be judged based on their:

1) past "deeds", that is before they were resurrected?

or

2) future "deeds", that is, what they will do during the thousand years?

If you say 1 - past deeds, then what's the point of these scriptures?

“23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)


“. . .For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.” (Romans 6:7)


If you say 2 - future deeds, will you say then that they were given a second chance?


As for the body of truth that we've come to know and loved since the 1800, you're correct that these are not exclusive to Jehovah's Witnesses. In fact if you go further back in history there were men who knew these basic truth. Men like Sir Isaac Newton, who rejected the Trinity doctrine. Men like John Milton, the great poet, Joseph Priestley, Michael Servetus, the Anabaptist and a few more.

In fact in addition to what you've already mentioned the Baptist of old rejected the very idea of Christmas celebrations. Unfortunately, as the years went by, many if not all of these different denominations (who knew these basic truths found in the Scriptures) began to abandon them. Nowadays these truths are no longer being taught or if it's being taught it has been watered down or replaced with unscriptural ideas. God's Kingdom is no longer prominent in most if not all of them. Saddest of all is the removal of God's precious and beautiful name JEHOVAH.

And like you said, all of these Bible Students came from these different denominations including "pastor Russell". When they got together as an International Bible Students Association (IBSA) they already knew these basic truths. Unfortunately they took along with them some of Christendom's unscriptural teachings and doctrines and customs like the cross, birthdays, Christmas. "Pastor Russell" (as he was called) had this wrong and unscriptural idea about the Pyramid, etc. But as they kept pouring their hearts into the scriptures (with petitions and prayers to God), their understanding of the scriptures especially prophetic events started to become clearer. In fact in 1876 these small group understood that the year 1914 was a "mark year", the year to watch for when they proclaimed “The seven times will end in A.D. 1914”. As the organization progressed through many trials and tribulations throughout the years, the truth became more and more clearer, including / ESPECIALLY our understanding of the identity of the Faithful and Discrete Slave class. These body of truth are all in the Scriptures for all to see. Sadly only a very small group of people among the seven billion came to love them. And I'm one of them.

As for these where you said:

>>Now take notice of what is said about those who are at his left:
Matthew 25:46 ’46And these will depart into everlasting cutting‐off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”

Now it should be noted, the where the NWT states "cutting-off", In the original Greek text, the word "Kolasis" appears, which means: Correction, Punishment, Penalty. So the more accurate rendering is found to be "everlasting Punishment".<<

If your implying that those who are judged as "unrighteous" are to suffer an "everlasting Punishment" (in hell fire), like I said, what then is the point of these scriptures?

“23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” (Romans 6:23)


“. . .For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin.” (Romans 6:7)

That is, if the "unrighteous" have already paid for their "sin" by dying, why do they need to suffer an "everlasting Punishment" in Christendom's "hell fire"?

It makes no sense.

But this explains why the parable of the "rich man and Lazarus" (that you quoted) is just an illustration not be taken literally. And since I've already covered it in a separate post I will not cover it here again.

As for the parable of the "wheat and the weed" - you have the basic idea nailed down but it's explained in detail in the July 15 2013 Watchtower here: http://www.jw.org/en/publications/magazines/w20130715/jesus-parable-wheat-and-we


Later...




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hello again Brother Eddie G: Yes, there was a lot of information in my last post. You left a lot to be addressed. As I stated in the previous posts, I will address the parables in a separate post. So I will address the questions you raised and your comments:


Your questions:

1: Based on the scriptures you've just quoted, if "A resurrection of "Judgement", [is] not [a] second chance."

How are the resurrected "dead" ones to be "judged individually according to their deeds"?

"And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds." Rev. 20:12


Are they going to be judged based on their:

1# past "deeds", that is before they were resurrected?

Rev.20:12 #key "the dead were judged"#


2# future "deeds", that is, what they will do during the thousand years?

For this answer we must find out what the Bible says about the 1,000 years:

Rev. 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.2And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.3And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.

For a thousand years Satan will be bound so he can not cause the nations to be led astray into error and away from truth#context when read in the Greek#

Now, there will be those already alive during the 1000 years who will surely die at some point, they will be of many different backgrounds and beliefs. However, 1000 years of no way to be led astray will either bring them into correction, or they will reject the correction.

Brother Eddie G: Can you provide 1 scripture that implies or expresses that there will be a resurrection other than that of the 144,000 before or during the 1000 year reign?

Understand a scripture, not reasoning, theologic statement etc., is required. All doctrines and theologies, right or wrong, are built on a foundation scripture. If the scripture does not exist, then we are dealing with "doctrine of men" in its purest form.

You: "If your implying that those who are judged as "unrighteous" are to suffer an "everlasting Punishment" #in hell fire#, like I said, what then is the point of these scriptures?"

“23 For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.” #Romans 6:23#

I am not implying anything in this matter, the scripture plainly states it. What has happened is "theology" has prevailed over the scripture and an alternative explanation has been given. So the true questions are:

1. If man has paid for his sin by death#according to the scriptures you provided# why would there be a need for the resurrection of the "unjust"? For when they die, all is paid, so they are no longer "unjust" the slate is clean, the debt paid.

Now I invite you to read Romans 6 again in context, for it is speaking of the "spiritual" man.

As this one too could become lengthy, I will leave it there and address it later under a future question topic.

You: That is, if the "unrighteous" have already paid for their "sin" by dying, why do they need to suffer an "everlasting Punishment" in Christendom's "hell fire"?

It makes no sense.

Actually it makes perfect sense. It is explained throughout the entire Bible. But let me address a few things:

"Christendoms Hell Fire"
As explained in the previous post, the word "hell" is used to encompass all the terms of the "abode of the dead"..so it is not "Christendoms Hell Fire" its the Bibles Lake of Fire.

2. Let us address this word you use: "Christendom". This is one of the hardest words for JWS to deal with. The reason is, not only have they tried to re-define it, but in their re-definition of it, they trap themselves into it.

Example: JWS define the word "Christendom" as "the world of false religion" etc. However the true definition of the word is:

Chris•ten•dom #ˈkrɪs ən dəm#

n.
1. Christians collectively.
2. the Christian world.

It is also defined as "places where Christianity is the predominant religion etc.

Now as I think I mentioned to you, my entire family are Baptized Witnesses. When I discuss this word with them, and then show them the definitions etc., the fall back argument is usually: "Well, it says "Christians" in the definition, the world is full of "False Christians and they do not Follow Christ nor do they "imitate him" we are True Christians, Christian means imitators of Christ."

When I show them that the word "Christian" actually means 'Followers or Disciples of Christ, both by dictionary and Bible in the book of Acts, then things usually take a turn and get into the reasons why JWS are the "True Christians" and everyone else are false Christians.

It only stands to reason, that if the word means, "The Christian World" and JWS are the "True Christians" then it is the "JWS" collectively that are "Christendom".

Its really simple, however understanding is lost when things move from 'Apologetics" into "Polemics".

You: "Unfortunately they took along with them some of Christendom's unscriptural teachings and doctrines and customs like the cross, birthdays, Christmas."


Let us review this for you say they are unscriptural teachings of "Christendom":

Cross: I do understand what would seem to be the issue here for the word "Stauros" does mean upright stake. However, when history is examined it reveals that at the time of "Christs" crucifixion, this "Stauros" had different forms. The Romans used : Low and High Tau crosses, actual trees, and borrowed various other forms of crosses from other cultures.
This is further confirmed by the crucifixions of both Peter and Andrew. This entire argument is based on a literal translation of one word with each side claiming to be correct. From all accounts of history, the Tau type cross is more likely to have been used.

My focus on this issue is more the use of the "cross" because before "Constantine" it was never used in the ways as it is today, and in fact did not have a place in the "Church" as a symbol.

Birthdays: This is an issue of theology and doctrine. The Bible does not speak for or against the celebration of Birthdays. In fact there were birthday celebrations amongst the Jews and early etc. but it was for the purpose of 1. Thanking God for the gift of a child. 2. Simple acknowledgment. It usually only involved a family dinner etc., but no evidence suggests the "gift giving" and other things that are common practice of today.

Note is taken, that on and at the "Birthday Celebrations" of the worldly..the main entertainment was the brutal torture, persecution, and execution of "Christians".

Christmas: Christmas has 2 origins. And is not in any way a Christian Holiday. Although I understand the 'Early Catholic Churches" intention on instituting a Mass for Christ, it is simply not warranted or supported by scripture. It is further condemned by the acceptance of celebration on a False date of birth that is actually of a "pagan god" as well as the acceptance of "pagan symbols" and practices in celebration of what is called 'Christmas".

On this issue, the JWS are correct on all accounts, both Biblically and Historically.

As we move toward the closing of this discussion in the upcoming post to discuss the parables and scriptures, I would like to again say that this discussion is not for the proving of who is right or who is wrong. It is a reasoning of different points of veiw with the focus question being:

Is it possible that mainstream Christianity as well as the Jehovahs Witnesses, need to review all doctrines and theologies against scripture?

We must keep in mind, that it was the "theology and theosophy" of the Pharisees that caused them to miss the mark!

Rev. Darryl Murphy

Answer
Hello Darryl,

My apologies for the late response as I'm still trying to figure out how to best answer your  last post. It is quite a long post and had many topics that needs to be addressed, so I was looking for a way to shorten my reply but it is what it is.

In any case you stated:

>>1. If man has paid for his sin by death#according to the scriptures you provided# why would there be a need for the resurrection of the "unjust"? For when they die, all is paid, so they are no longer "unjust" the slate is clean, the debt paid.<<

If so, then you just agreed to what I said. That is, those who are resurrected back to life are going to be judged according to what they will do in the thousand years.

That like you said they start a new life with a "clean slate". In this sense they are given a SECOND CHANCE. A second chance to life - exactly what I said.

This is also in accordance to what Jesus said at John 3:16

“. . .“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. . .” (John 3:16)

That is, no one is declared righteous unless one is "exercising faith in him".


Furthermore he added:

“. . . He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.” (John 3:17, 18)

So it's clear from the forgoing scriptures, that a person IS NOT automatically declared "righteous" just because he / she was resurrected back to life.


In fact this is a just and a loving provision from God for it gives a SECOND CHANCE (to life) to those who perished. It gives a second chance to those who were killed in various wars. It gives a second chance to those who lived their lives in ignorance. Those innocent shed blood like Abel, like those who were killed in the concentration camps of the world, they will be given a second chance to life. Even those who did "vile things" (not wicked things) will be given a second chance to life.

And it is also for this reason why the scripture say "For a thousand years Satan will be bound so he can not cause the nations to be led astray into error and away from truth".

"Rev. 20 And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.2And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years.3And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended..."

It's to give mankind a chance to prove their unquestionable love to God. With Satan and his demons out of the way. The earth turned into a paradise, no more sickness, sorrow or pain, mankind will now have a chance to fully show their love to God without hindrance. All will have the grand opportunity to show their true love to their Creator! It will be just like in the beginning again, in the Garden of Eden, where all will be become perfect again (as intended).

(once mankind is brought back to perfection - the final test will follow, Satan will be let loose for a short period of time to tempt mankind again and prove once and for all time that even in a perfect state man can remain faithful to God).


As to your question:

>> Can you provide 1 scripture that implies or expresses that there will be a resurrection other than that of the 144,000 before or during the 1000 year reign?<<

Answer:

It's well known that before the 1000 year reign, there were nine resurrections on earth. Some were performed by prophets, some by Jesus others by his apostles. (1Ki 17:17-24; 2Ki 4:32-37, Lu 7:11-15; 8:49-56; Joh 11:38-44, Acts 9:36-42; and 20:7-12.)

Proof that the dead are indeed can be and will be resurrected!

But for proof of the resurrection during the 1000 year reign, I don't know what else to say because the scriptures I quoted provided us with many evidence of this. It not only imply but showed us that there's indeed going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous in the coming "DAY" of judgment.

In fact the scripture say:

“Because he has set a day, in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furnished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead.”” (Acts 17:31)

“For the Father judges no one at all, but he has committed all the judging to the Son,” (John 5:22)

“However, let this one fact not be escaping YOUR notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day. ” (2 Peter 3:8)

“And I saw thrones, and there were those who sat down on them, and power of judging was given them. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed with the ax for the witness they bore to Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had worshiped neither the wild beast nor its image and who had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4)

“. . .And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.” (Revelation 20:12, 13)

Now, if the above scriptures doesn't convinced you of the resurrection during the 1000 year reign then I'm afraid nothing will.

later ... about Christendom and "hell fire".  

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