Jehovah`s Witness/Sheol Hades Gehenna-Hell Fire

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Question
Hello Sister T, glad to see that you are still here and all is well with you.

I was reading through the questions and responses and came across your discussion regarding "Hell Fire". However there are a few things I would like to share for consideration and have a few questions:

1# The word Hell is an Anglo Saxon word used by the early translators to encompass both Sheol and Hades, which you correctly state in your response is the common grave# However, I would have you to know, there is a difference in the Hebrew concept of Sheol and the Greek concept of Hades#

2#Whereas you mentioned Hades and Sheol, you did not mention Gehenna also encompassed by the word 'Hell"# Gehenna or "Gehenna of Fire" is actaully what is taught to be the " Hell Fire" or place of torment# It is taught to be the place for the condemed#

In your response, you began reasoning using Job 14:13 where in the original text Sheol is used; and Acts 2:25-27, where in the orginal text Hades is used# you further reason stating:

"The fact that God did not "leave" Jesus in hell implies that Jesus was in hell, or Ha'des, at least for a time, does it not?"

"The Bible helps us to see that Sheol/Ha'des/Hell is NOT a place of fiery torment forever and ever#"

Sister T, you are correct in this statemet, Sheol/Hades encompassed by the word "Hell" is not a place of fiery torment# However, the premise by which you argue this point is invalid, for it is neither of these places that is in question#

You also state: "Those Scriptures in Revelation are the very ones that prove it's not#"

The above statement is in regards to Rev# 20:10,14-15 which you quoted from two translations in your repsonse# Let us look at those scripture:

Rev# 20:10, 14-15 #NWT#

"10 And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet #already were#; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever#"

"14-15  And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire# This means the second death, the lake of fire# 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire#"

Rev# 20:10, 14-15 #KJV#

"10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever#"

"14-15 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire# This is the second death# 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire#"
  
You then state:"So from those two Bible Translations, we see that The Devil is cast into the lake of fire, death and ha'des/hell is cast into the lake of fire#"

In this statement you are correct with the exception that you did not include what is found in verse 15 that will also be cast into the lake of fire:

Rev#20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire#"

So who and what is actually cast into the "Lake of Fire"?

Answer from the scriptures: vs 10: The Devil, the beast and the false prophet; vs 15: All not found written in the book of life#

The Lake of Fire is the Hell fire taught Sister T# It is also called "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of Fire"# Let us look at an illustration from the book of Gospel of Luke:

Luke 16:23-28 NWT

“Also, the rich man died and was buried#23And in Ha′des he lifted up his eyes, he existing in torments, and he saw Abraham afar off and Laz′a‧rus in the bosom #position# with him#24So he called and said, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Laz′a‧rus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in anguish in this blazing fire#’25But Abraham said, ‘Child, remember that you received in full your good things in your lifetime, but Laz′a‧rus correspondingly the injurious things# Now, however, he is having comfort here but you are in anguish#26And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and ​YOU​ people, so that those wanting to go over from here to ​YOU​ people cannot, neither may people cross over from there to us#’27Then he said, ‘In that event I ask you, father, to send him to the house of my father,28for I have five brothers, in order that he may give them a thorough witness, that they also should not get into this place of torment#

We see in these verses, Hades being described: 1# The grave: The rich man died and was buried# 2# A place of torment : "he existing in torments" 3# A place of blazing fire: " I am in anguish in this blazing fire"#

Now, there is another detail that is sometimes missed: Let us look at verse 26:

"And besides all these things, a great chasm has been fixed between us and ​YOU​ people,"

This "chasm" or "gulf" is a divison in the "abode of the dead";Sheol# In Hebrew view, the side of the Gulf or Chasm where Lazurus was, is called "Paradise", where the righteous rest#

Below the Rich man###the Fire of "Gehenna"#In the Greek view of Hades,the Rich man would be in a divison of Hades called "Tartarus";a place where the wicked suffer and are tormented# The place of "knashing of teeth"#

In the NWT, in all places where Hell or "Hell Fire" is used in translation of Gehenna, Hell is removed# But the question is: Is there a place of firey torment? With this in mind lets look at some scriptures using the NWT:

Matthew 5:22 KJV

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire#

NWT uses the original text and states: "firey Geheena"

NWT :"Also, if your right hand is making you stumble, cut it off and throw it away from you# For it is more beneficial to you for one of your members to be lost than for your whole body to land in Ge‧hen′na#"

Matthew 10:28 NWT:"And do not become fearful of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul; but rather be in fear of him that can destroy both soul and body in Ge‧hen′na"

Note the use of 'Body and Soul" in the NWT

Matthew 18:9 NWT
Also, if your eye is making you stumble, tear it out and throw it away from you; it is finer for you to enter one‐eyed into life than to be thrown with two eyes into the fiery Ge‧hen′na#

King James reads "Hell Fire"

Matthew 23:15

NWT:"Woe to ​YOU, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! because ​YOU​ traverse sea and dry land to make one proselyte, and when he becomes one ​YOU​ make him a subject for Ge‧hen′na twice as much so as yourselves#"

Matthew 23:33

NWT: "Serpents, offspring of vipers, how are ​YOU​ to flee from the judgment of Ge‧hen′na?"

Mark 9:43 NWT "also see 9:45,47
"And if ever your hand makes you stumble, cut it off; it is finer for you to enter into life maimed than with two hands to go off into Ge‧hen′na, into the fire that cannot be put out#"

Matthew 3:12 NWT
His winnowing shovel is in his hand, and he will completely clean up his threshing floor, and will gather his wheat into the storehouse, but the chaff he will burn up with fire that cannot be put out#”

Mattew 3:12 gives us a glimpse of understanding of the illustration of the wheat and tare, or wheat and "weeds": See Matthew 23:24-30# It also sheds light on the seperation of the sheep and the goat# See Matthew 25:31-34#

In both illustations the end result is the same:

From the illustration of wheat and weeds NWT:

Matthew 23:30
"First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse#’”

Illustration of sheep and goat NWT:

Matthew 25:31-34
31“When the Son of man arrives in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne#32And all the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats#33And he will put the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on his left#

34“Then the king will say to those on his right, ‘Come, ​YOU​ who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for ​YOU​ from the founding of the world

Now take notice of what is said about those who are at his left:
Matthew 25:46 ’46And these will depart into everlasting cutting‐off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life#”

Now it should be noted, the where the NWT states "cutting-off", In the original Greek text, the word "Kolasis" appears, which means: Correction, Punishment, Penalty# So the more accurate rendering is found to be "everlasting Punishment"#

This leads us back to Rev# 20# I will use the NWT:

11And I saw a great white throne and the one seated on it# From before him the earth and the heaven fled away, and no place was found for them#12And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened# But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life# And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds#13And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Ha′des gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds#14And death and Ha′des were hurled into the lake of fire# This means the second death, the lake of fire#15Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire
 
Now I would like to point out something:

"This means the second death"
The original text reads: "houtos esti deuteros thanatos"

In the NWT the word "means" is translated from the word "esti"# "Esti" = "is" and is a 3rd person singular of "to be". So the more accurate rendering is: "This "is" the second death" or "this "is to be" the second death"

So at the core of this, is an issue of a word, its usage and the understanding of it. Gehenna is used as an illustration of the "Lake of Fire". "Hell" is used also to denote "Gehenna" or "Gehenna of Fire", The "Lake of Fire".

The scriptures used are just a few pertaining to "Gehenna"

Now in the rest of your response are a lot of "theological" positions.  So I have a few questions:

You: "In saying that God punishes people in Hell forever, for the short amount of time they sinned while on earth is calling God hateful, cruel, and unjust and making him lower then us imperfect people.

Because we read at Romans 6:7:

KJV "7 For he that is dead is freed from sin."

"This tells us that when you die, you are FREED from sin."

Also we read at Romans 6:23:

KJV "23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."

So this let's us know that our death is the wages, or payment, of sin.  Again, when a person dies, their sins are paid for.  Their very death pays for all the sins they committed while alive.


Questions:

1. If man is freed from sin upon his death and all debts are paid, then what is it that he is being judged for at the ressurection?

2. What is it that an account will have to be given for according too 1Peter 4:4-6;Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:2;Romans 14:11-3?

3. According to Rev. 20, there are those not written in the book of life that will be cast into the "Lake of Fire". What is it actually that is being cast in the "fire"?

4. What happens to a mans "spirit" when he dies?

5. If a spirit never dies, what will happen to it after judgment is passed according to scripture?


I eagerly await your response.

Rev. Darryl Murphy

Answer
Hello Rev. Darryl Murphy,

Yes all is well with me, I could not be happier!  If I was a bit younger, I think I'd do cartwheels every time I thought of the joy of serving the only true God Jehovah, and being set free from false religion. (John 8:32) I hope all is well with you.  Sorry for the delay, I should have put up a short two day away slot.

I didn't mention Gehenna because the second death (lake of fire) is the same as Gehenna, we know that in the Bible Fire is used as a way to convey a total and complete destruction.  When something is burned up with fire, it's destroyed forever.  So Gehenna/lake of fire = everlasting destruction.  This means/is the second death.  Why second death.  Because there is a first death, which a person can and will be resurrected from, we call it Adamic death, because of Adam's disobedience we inherited sin and imperfection, we grow old and die.  So God is going to resurrect people from that first death, but if a person incurs a reason to receive that second death, being thrown into the lake of fire where the Devil will be and all the others mentioned there in Revelation, then there is no resurrection hope from the second death.  You will just stay dead.  Right now people who die will not stay dead, they are in Jehovah's memory to be brought back. You have to be in harmony with the Bible to know that the ones cast into Gehenna or lake of fire aren't really still alive, they are dead, it's just that since God is a God of the living and all are alive to him in his memory, then there has to be a distinction between being dead and coming back and being dead and not coming back.  Being dead and not coming back is referred to as Gehenna or lake of fire or second death.   

<<<quote>>>

Jesus Christ associated fire with Gehenna (Mt 5:22; 18:9; Mr 9:47, 48), as did the disciple James, the only Biblical writer besides Matthew, Mark, and Luke to use the word. (Jas 3:6) Some commentators endeavor to link such fiery characteristic of Gehenna with the burning of human sacrifices that was carried on prior to Josiah’s reign and, on this basis, hold that Gehenna was used by Jesus as a symbol of everlasting torment. However, since Jehovah God expressed repugnance for such practice, saying that it was “a thing that I had not commanded and that had not come up into my heart” (Jer 7:31; 32:35), it seems most unlikely that God’s Son, in discussing divine judgment, would make such idolatrous practice the basis for the symbolic meaning of Gehenna. It may be noted that God prophetically decreed that the Valley of Hinnom would serve as a place for mass disposal of dead bodies rather than for the torture of live victims. (Jer 7:32, 33; 19:2, 6, 7, 10, 11) Thus, at Jeremiah 31:40 the reference to “the low plain of the carcasses and of the fatty ashes” is generally accepted as designating the Valley of Hinnom, and a gate known as “the Gate of the Ash-heaps” evidently opened out onto the eastern extremity of the valley at its juncture with the ravine of the Kidron. (Ne 3:13, 14) It seems obvious that such “carcasses” and “fatty ashes” are not related to the human sacrifices made there under Ahaz and Manasseh, since any bodies so offered would doubtless be viewed by the idolaters as “sacred” and would not be left lying in the valley.

<<<end quote>>>

Now to your questions, but before I go into those questions, let me ask please, you know what we believe, so why the questions?  Is it to try to disprove what we believe and prove what you believe, or do you genuinely want to know? It seems like you truly believe you already have all the answers that you need to know, and that your 'discussions' are more of a way to try to disprove what is clearly shown from the Bible.  

If someone wants to find fault with something, it's not hard to find fault.  Why?  Because no one is perfect in this world and people make mistakes, but when basic bible doctrines come in to dispute, wouldn't it be wise to let God's word have the final say instead man made beliefs?  (Prov. 3:5,6)  The overwhelming untruth about a fiery hell is so contrary to who Jehovah God is and what the Bible says, it's more to how Satan says God is and what Satan teaches and is teaching people, and the sad part is they are believing that crap.  

Also I would like you to consider the questions Bro. Eddie G asked someone else, they are excellent questions to ask yourself and ponder on.  Why on earth anyone can and would believe our loving heavenly Father is that evil is beyond me, but of course I know why, his enemy is behind it all.  I wish you and everyone else who believes in hell fire would actually wake up and stop being fooled.  The rich man parable is just that a parable and it stands for something else just like all the other parables do that Jesus gave.

The link:  http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2013/4/hell-7.htm


1. If man is freed from sin upon his death and all debts are paid, then what is it that he is being judged for at the ressurection?

As the Bible states, there will be a resurrection of two groups of people, righteous ones and unrighteous ones. (Acts 24:15).  The ones who died unrighteous who will be resurrected because their dying paid for their sins while alive,(Ro 6:7) will be judged for their deeds that they do AFTER being resurrected.  (Rev 20:12,13) They come back with a clean slate, but they will be judged during the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ and is why this is called Judgement Day, because they will be JUDGED on what they do at that time.   So will that person after knowing he was resurrected start serving God in order to keep living or come to life, or will he do wrong?  That is what he will be judged on, not what he did before he died.  That's why the dead do not come to life until AFTER the 1000 years. (John 5:28,29, Rev. 20:4-6) because everyone has to do God's will during that time, many died and never knew Jehovah, or about him, so it makes sense that a loving Father would give those ones a chance to serve him, if they choose to they will continue living, or come to life, if they don't, they will be cast off in complete destruction, (lake of fire/Gehenna = second death)  See they already died once, so if they die again because of being adversely judged according to their deeds, then it's the second death, which there is no resurrection from.  It's quite simple, and it's very loving on Jehovah's part, who is love.  


2. What is it that an account will have to be given for according too 1Peter 4:4-6;Matthew 12:36; Romans 14:2;Romans 14:11-3?

What you are not realizing I see is that you are grouping people who have died and will be resurrected and judged by their deeds at that time, to people who are judged adversely at Armageddon, see the people who die at Armageddon are obviously judged to die at that time because we are in the last days and we are preaching and telling people just like in Noah's time, this is what God has said and will do, listen and obey God.  Instead people mock and ridicule, and take no note.  So they die at Armageddon, ones who die at Armageddon don't get resurrected, they die the second death right then and there.  Then you put scriptures that are telling us people not to judge each other in specific things, that has nothing to do with Jesus being the Judge.  People can't read hearts, but Jehovah gave that ability to Jesus and he will know who is on his Father's side and who is not.  We have to prove ourselves faithful now because if we are still alive when Armageddon comes, we can't save anyone else, it's up to us to do our part in serving God, we have to render an account to God in order to survive the coming destruction.  A person would be better off if they died before Armageddon then to die at Armageddon because dying at Armageddon, it's over for good.  If you die a true servant of Jehovah before Armageddon you will be part of the resurrection to life, if you die a vile person before Armageddon you will be part of the resurrection to judgement.

I mean that's even in life now, when you are hired at a new job, isn't there a probation period to see if you can do the job right, live up to what your boss expects and says how he wants his company ran?  Of course there is.  It's a time of judgement so to speak to see how you will do.  but it's up to you how you do, you can do right or you can do wrong.  If you want to keep the job, you'll do right, if you don't care, you won't do right, and ultimately lose out on that position. Well do right by God and live, do wrong and die, but it's not like you didn't have a chance or choice.

3. According to Rev. 20, there are those not written in the book of life that will be cast into the "Lake of Fire". What is it actually that is being cast in the "fire"?

The person will simply die and not be resurrected.  Again, you are taking the lake of fire as literal when the Bible specifically tells you what that lake of fire is, it's the second death.  So that means they will not be in the book of life, or God's memory and be brought back during the 1000 year Judgement Day.  They are going to be put to death for all time, no hope of a resurrection, either at Armageddon or during Judgement day or when Satan is let loose.  What you aren't realizing is the second death will always be.  Adam was perfect when he disobeyed, so was Satan and the other angels, having free will, what if someone starts some mess like Satan did?  This time it will no longer be tolerated, it will have been proved that Jehovah's way is the right way, so that person will suffer the second death, meaning a ceasing to exist, complete destruction for all time, or everlasting destruction.    

That "Day" is full of activity, Christ will reign for 1000 years with the 144,000. to put it simple he's getting the people and earth ready to hand everything back to his Father once everything is back to how it was when it was a paradise like garden.  After people are resurrected the ones who are resurrected to judgement will have to prove faithful, if they don't they will die, by the end of the 1000 years all people will be perfect, the ones who are judged adversely will die with Satan once he's let loose, or even before.  But the ones who remain faithful to the END, (and then the end when Jesus hands back the kingdom to his Father 1 Cor. 15:24)will come to life!


4. What happens to a mans "spirit" when he dies?

This is where you have to make sure you are in harmony with the Bible and is how Satan gets a lot of people with his deceptive ways.  Not leaning upon your own understanding (Prov 3:5,6) and having Jehovah's holy spirit will help a person to differentiate between teachings that are unscriptural and ones that are scriptual.  First you need to know what Spirit means, in this case it's speaking of one's life force, or breath of life, as God blew in to Adam's lifeless soul, breath. (Gen. 2:7) We live because we breathe, if we are not breathing, we will die or are dead.  So when our spirit goes out, or our breath of life goes out, I don't know about you but I've seen people die before, and a person doesn't take in a last breath when they die, No, they blow out their last breath and it's the same even with animals, when they die, they blow out their last breath, breath of life goes out.  So a person's spirit, or breath, goes out, and thus they die. That means just what it says, it goes out, that doesn't mean it's alive and floating around somewhere living a part from the body going to heaven or hell.  It means just want it says, their breath goes out.  Do this, hold your hand in front of your face and blow on it, now don't breathe in again, hold it, that's what happens when a person dies, breath goes out, no more comes back in.  But you are alive so you can start breathing in again.  

We go into God's memory, return to God, because God gave life, no one can create another living thing, only God can do that, and no one can bring back another living thing, only by God can that happen. God has the ability to bring that life back, by resurrecting that same person.  It's that simple.  Just like when a person dies you hear their loved ones say I keep that person right here, and they point to their heart.  Is that person really right there in their heart?  No, what is there?  The memory of that person, that's how a person is kept alive because they are remembered, that's what God does, he keeps people alive in his memory, but he can really bring them back, we can't.  If you are not being permitted to have understanding of this then it's nothing I can say to make you get the sense of it.  You just won't understand.  I suggest the humbling of your heart, be humble towards God and ask for understanding...because believing in Hellfire is a direct teaching from Satan.


5. If a spirit never dies, what will happen to it after judgment is passed according to scripture?

You have to be specific, because first of all there is spirit, which is our breath of life, and then they are Spirit Creatures, who are like the wind, invisible.  So how can the breath of life never die?  The Bible doesn't say that a Spirit never dies.  If you are trying to make Spirit and soul mean the same thing by saying that, then that's still incorrect because Ez 18:4 tells us Souls die.  And breath of life without being in a person is nothing, so it doesn't and can't live outside of the body.  Nothing lives a part from the body, we are souls we don't have souls, we breath to keep living, if we no longer breathe, we are dead souls.  

Now what will happen to a person after judgement is passed is either they will do one of two things, if they are on God's side they will keep living, if they are not they will die, cease to exist, experience the second death.  That's what will happen to a person who is living and breathing during Judgement Day or during Armageddon, either or, it's Jehovah's side or it's Satan's side.  period.  No inbetween, no gray areas, that's it.  I suggest you get on Jehovah's side and leave Satan's false teachings alone so that you can have that chance, because you don't want to be caught on Satan's side when Armageddon comes...I assure you!


Have a nice day


Sister T  

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Sister T

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I can answer questions related to Jehovah's Witnesses and the Bible. I love learning the truth from the Bible and helping others to learn that truth as well. I don't know everything but will answer from the Bible, I like to use illustrations as well to help a person relate to what is being said. The Bible has the last say so over any person.

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I am an active baptized Jehovah's Witness and Jehovah is Almighty God,(Ps. 83:18) and his Son Jesus Christ died so that everyone exercising faith in him may not be destroyed but have everlasting life. (John 3:16). I support my fellow Witnesses on this board who are real, and Jehovah's worldwide visible organization, including the Governing Body of Jehovah's Witnesses. As God is not a God of disorder, and there could not be order if there were not ones to take the lead. Taking the lead and having a leader is not the same, our leader is Jesus Christ, and in order to have unity and order, there has to be arrangements in place. As the first century Christians had, there were men taking the lead, (Acts 6:1-6) as with Moses, (Exodus 18:21) and in our day, in following with Bible truths, we do the same. When people twist that around to us worshiping men, it is just a straight out lie! Why would the Scripture at 1 Tim. 3:1-10, 12, 13 give the criteria for men reaching out for an office of overseer if that was not meant to be? (Phil 1:1, Acts 20:17, 28, Eph. 4:11, 12, 2 Cor. 3:4-6). If we were not supposed to have men who take the lead, why was this scripture penned? James 5:14-15 "Is there anyone sick among YOU? Let him call the older men of the congregation to [him], and let them pray over him, greasing [him] with oil in the name of Jehovah. 15 And the prayer of faith will make the indisposed one well, and Jehovah will raise him up. Also, if he has committed sins, it will be forgiven him."

Organizations
If you have legit questions and want to know the truth, please ask, but if you are here to spread your lies and twists of the scriptures or get your falsehoods out, you may get rejected! The truth is from the Bible, if what you say does not harmonize with the Bible then what you say is wrong! Context and other scriptures help determine scriptures that may stump us, let scripture interpret scripture. The Bible does not contradict itself, so if what you are being taught or if what you are teaching makes it seem like the Bible is contradictory, remember it's not the Bible it's the man-made teaching! Doctrines of men! Mark 7:6, 7 "He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me with [their] lips, but their hearts are far removed from me. 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men." (also Romans 10:2, 3)

Education/Credentials
Matthew 24:14 says "And this good news of the kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations; and then the end will come." We are doing that today, we are living in times of Bible Prophecy and as a Jehovah's Witness, we have the privilege to be apart of a prophecy spoken by Jesus himself! The good news of the Kingdom. Ask yourself, what kingdom? then read Daniel 2:44! It's a real government. Take heed now! Listening to men over God will mean your life.(Prov 3:5,6, Ps. 146:3) A lie will never become truth, No matter how long or how many people say it or speak it. Learn what the Bible really teaches, seek out Jehovah's ways, serving God in truth is only acceptable to him,(John 4:23, 24) you can not be serving God acceptably if what you believe is a lie! Pray for understanding and ask Jehovah to search your heart and draw you! (John 6:44, 65) Now is the time to be with the people who are called by Jehovah's name! (Acts 15:14, 17, Isa. 43:7, 10, Zech 8:23)

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