Jehovah`s Witness/Thanks

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Hi Derrick,
It's been a while...hope all is well... I just want to thank you for defending Brenton. He is the first witness that is honest to say, the dates could be or not be correct. We are to serve God/Jesus without dates, if we served them because of dates, how selfish would that be, we would only do it to get something. We don't serve God for any other reason than WE LOVE HIM. It would be nice to know when & where but, would any of us be ready if we knew. If the date was Feb. 18, 2018...We would do what we wanted til Feb. 17, 2018...We are all about time, & never feel we have enough of it...Most folks like to wait 'til the last minute to do something, yes there are those who prepare early, but would they extend themselves to help others to get ready ? NO. There has been alot of talk about Brenton, Robert & Myself. They are all wrong about Mr. Jones..he tells the facts & although he isn't a witness right now, he never talks about the Society, he brings out, what they think & do. I go to the hall, so he isn't wrong. He is just telling it like it is. But what bothers most of the witnesses on the site is that they know it too, but want to give the Society a different image. They friends in the Society are just imperfect humans & they'll tell you that when they do or say something that is not so spiritual, but what they don't know is that the world knows they aren't perfect, they don't have to tell us. Many things are not told to you before you get baptized, because they don't want to stumble new ones. The more you go the more you see & hear things..When they say, Well we are not perfect, I simply say I know, I didn't think you walked on water when I came here. Derrick they practically clutch their pearls because they don't think their imperfection is visible. So again, when they fall back on default words, Well we are imperfect, all I can say, more imperfect than who or what ?? The entire world is imperfect thanks to Adam & Eve. Most of the witnesses are just honest folks trying to live by God/Jesus's spirit..just trying to make it to the next day. I was out in service this Saturday & had the privledge to work with a sister, & she doesn't have the attitude of them & us. She like me, go out & try to preach the Good News to as many as we can. Hope to get a student to help them to see the big picture & the times we are living in..
As I told Brenton today, dates are good to know, but if you are helping your fellow man..what good is a date...God/Jesus is just telling us to be ready...The bible gives us the order of what will take place but no dates. See how folks act with the dates they have come up with so knowing what date this system will end will not make a big difference...Just be ready..If you know there is a thief in your area, be prepared, that's all you can do...will you be angry because the thief never showed ? I'm just saying..Again, I want to thank you for defending Brenton..he is a good brother, not because he sort of agrees with Mr. Jones & myself but how he reacted..with mildness...as we were taught from our parents, it's not what you say, but how you say it...As the bible says, add salt to your responses. If any of the friends would go door to door like some of the friends do on this site, I can't imagine..A thought, maybe the Society placed some of them here because they may not have good people skills. It takes a slow to anger person to knock on doors. This Sunday we were out in service, knocked on this door, the male, was very very angry with us. I think whoever knocked on his door before told him we are all sinners born into sin, because one of his statements was he was told that even a baby is a sinner, that really sent him off, started to curse & said do not come back to his door any more...add him to the list of DND, & said anyone of us knocks again, he'll punch them in the face. Well we were all a bit disturbed by his reaction, but we just made sure to add to our territory sheet, DND (Do not Do)in bold letters..not anyone of us, tried to reason with him or correct him, the 2 brothers just said, they were sorry, & will not knock on his door again. We then moved on..because the next door might have been an interested party so why would we carry a bad attitude to the next householder. By our reaction, you never know this fellow may just welcome a witness or a christian at another time. But because of our mildness & we represent God/Jesus, we have to continually show fruitage of the spirit. You never know who is listening or watching..& we know for sure God is watching how we represent him. Hope to hear from you, if not, no worries...

Take Care,

Dee

Answer
Good evening, Dee.  I hope you are doing well.

Actually, I'm glad you wrote.  As always, it is good to hear from you.  I too, have been reading the various exchanges on the board as of late, and there are so many things I have considered addressing in a post, but simply haven't.  I must say that, outside of the times when there has been a debate of some sort, this past week or two has been some of the most interesting reading on the forum in a long while.

First, in regards to Mr. Hepburn, I have always told anyone who asked, that he is by far the most sensible JW on here.  There's Brenton, and then there are the rest, if you know what I mean.  The others seem to think that if they insult you, or call you a name, then they have said something worth reading.  Brenton actually gives REASONS for what he believes, and does so in a mild and calm manner.  

I do need to add that what I have seen from the new guy, Mr. Laurentos, he seems to be pretty sensible and polite as well.  But the others?....Well, you get my drift.

Now don't misunderstand....Doctrinally, I disagree with him also.  In fact, I strongly disagree with the answer that he gave you, in regards to whether the WT Organization qualifies as a false prophet.  I believe the evidence is very condemning, and I actually started to respond to what he said, but decided I would wait to see if anyone wrote to ask about it.  

However, as far as the WAY and MANNER in which he answers, he does it the right way.  Now, I want to make it clear, that Brenton has never asked, nor does he need my validation.  In fact, with the hate that the zealous, but less intelligent JWs here have for me, they would try and use my validation of him as "proof" that he is a weak JW.  Its sad that they are so warped that they would take it that way, but I truly believe that some of them would.  

Wow...where to begin.  Dee, if you don't mind, I want to use my answer to speak some things at this point, to various individuals.  The one that started this whole thing, was the nerve of this Eddie G character, to issue you a "friendly warning", and presume to tell you who you should, and should not speak to.  Then T chimes in with her patting herself on the back, for "predicting" that you would "eventually run to the opposers", when if I am not mistaken, you had PREVIOUSLY WRITTEN me BEFORE her "prediction", in times past.  I believe it was you who wrote under another name beginning with "D", wasn't it?  

TO EDDIE G: Just who do you think you are, telling a grown woman who she is to ask questions to, and issue "friendly warnings"?  If you want to issue some warnings, why don't you issue some BIBLICAL warnings about what Jehovah God thinks of LYING, when you have JWs who have been caught red-handed time and time and time again, telling things they KNOW themselves to be false, but doing so to slander?  Eddie, I have not seen you issue ONE SINGLE warning to a fellow JW about his lying, yet you presume to "warn" Dee that she should not be writing to myself, Robert Jones, etc?

A word of advice, Eddie....Mind your own business, and don't think too highly of your own authority.  Dee has been treated and talked to so badly by several of the JWs on here, slandered, called a liar, and accused of being someone else, while the non-JWs have ALL shown her kindness and been polite to her.  If you want to see the problem, then look at yourselves.

Dee, I hope you realize the mind-set that these people have, and that Eddie's words are simply an indication of the control these people will exercise over you and your thinking, should you make the decision to become baptized into the Organization.


TO STEWART:  You sir, are completely out of line.  When I first read your ridiculous comments about Mr. Hepburn, the first thing I thought of, is that you are so "spiritually discerning", that Jehovah God is leading you to know when the Tribulation is going to occur, and uncovering mysteries that have been hidden in the Scriptures for years, yet you can't even grasp the SIMPLE Scriptural counsel in Matthew 18:15-17, that you should have written your brother IN PRIVATE before posting your nonsense about him in the public forum.

Furthermore, your remarks about him, do not show you to be a spiritual man at all, but one who needs to grow a great deal.  You comment that you don't want Witnesses like him answering questions in this "apostate forum".  If its an "apostate forum", then what are YOU doing here, Stewart?  Futhermore, you don't get to decide who answers questions here, while you are going around predicting all sorts of nonsense and setting dates that you have no clue about.  

You may not realize it, but Mr. Hepburn comes off as quite sensible, while you are looking quite ridiculous with your unbiblical predictions.  I also noticed that Mr. Hepburn showed great restraint by NOT addressing you in public, although I am sure he was tempted.  I admire him at least for that.  I probably would have called you out in public....he took the high road.  

Then you tell him that Robert Jones must have perceived him as "weak".  That is nonsense.  Mr. Jones is not "evil", nor was he looking for a weakness to pounce on.  Do you have any idea how the sensible readers perceive YOU, Stewart?  


SISTER T:  You simply repeat the same worn-out false accusations over and over, by saying the "opposers" (as you call them), are here to "lie".  Funny, but you never tell what lies the non-Witnesses are telling.  Also, you never address the ACTUAL lies that are being told by the likes of Rando.  I just caught him in another one recently, and it was an obvious one.  And as always, I wrote him and asked him to either explain, or retract.  His reply?  Typical...he just called me a "hypocrite", and completely ignored the fact that he knows he was lying.  He doesn't even deny it....he just thinks its justified.  And you validate someone like that, and then talk about the "opposers spreading their lies"?  Ridiculous.

Then, we have this poor questioner writing to one of the experts, thinking all this date predicting is a GOOD thing, because it is making people want to study the Bible.  Amazing.  Since when is FALSELY predicting a date, and trying to raise false hopes, and GOOD thing?  History does not support this notion.  The only thing false prophesying does, is to raise hopes and motivate study TEMPORARILY....until the date proves false, that is.  Then, it becomes a major source of causing them to become disillusioned.  

Oh, I know, when that happens, you can just write them off as "evil", and shrug it off by claiming they "were serving Jehovah with a date in mind".  That is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.  Check your records....After the 1975 debacle, the WT Society actually showed a DECREASE in the 2 years following!  So much for the notion that date-predicting causes people to "want to study".  

Were those people RIGHT for leaving the Society after the 1975 failure?  Yes, they were.  Does that mean they were only serving Jehovah "with a date in mind?"  Absolutely not!  For one thing, not all of those people who left the Organization, actually quit serving God.  They simply quit following a false organization that led them to have faith in a date that wasn't Biblical to begin with.  Many of those people continued to serve Jehovah....They just left the Organization that pretended to have insight on when the end would come, and raised false hopes in the process.  

So, that isn't exactly "serving Jehovah with a date in mind".  Actually, it means they decided to serve Him, WITHOUT letting the Org. put any more dates in their mind.  Don't forget....it wasn't the average JW that came up with the 1975 date.  It was the Organization that put it into the literature, and voiced it repeatedly from the KH platforms.


Dee, I apologize, but those are things that needed to be said.  You have this Stewart character, thinking he can come on here and convince people that he knows when the end is coming.  And the date has already had to change to one year later....Who didn't see that coming?

Bottom line....Stewart doesn't have a clue when the end is coming, and as you said Dee, we should just BE CHRISTIANS and follow the Word of God EVERY day.  


Dee, you said...."if we served them because of dates, how selfish would that be, we would only do it to get something. We don't serve God for any other reason than WE LOVE HIM."

REPLY:  That is so true.  I am convinced that is one of the reasons that He does NOT reveal the dates....Because our service does not depend on such.  My belief in the end times events, are quite different from the JW teaching, but like them, I DO believe it is near.  However, if Christ doesn't return for the next 50 years, that will not affect my service to Him.  


YOU:  "If the date was Feb. 18, 2018...We would do what we wanted til Feb. 17, 2018"

REPLY:  Exactly!!!!  That is the point I have made several times, and that is just our human nature.  And THAT is the reason we are to be "watching and expecting" each day, and living our lives like TODAY could be the day.  The reason you just stated above, is why Jehovah does not, has not, and WILL not, reveal the date of the end....not to Stewart, not to the Organization, and not to anyone else.  

At least Harold Camping learned his lesson, and repented....It seems people like this Stewart, never will.  At least not until he's proven wrong.


YOU:  "There has been alot of talk about Brenton, Robert & Myself. They are all wrong about Mr. Jones..he tells the facts & although he isn't a witness right now, he never talks about the Society, he brings out, what they think & do. I go to the hall, so he isn't wrong. He is just telling it like it is. But what bothers most of the witnesses on the site is that they know it too, but want to give the Society a different image."


REPLY:  You know, you hit on something here.  I think you are correct, that they have the need to present this "polished" image, and to do so, they have to discredit people like Mr. Jones and myself.  

I will tell you this....Mr. Jones has no axe to grind, nor does he dislike Jehovah's Witnesses.  I have seen him be very fair and honest in his answers, although he does NOT hesitate to correct a false answer given by a JW.  Like the one recently, about whether JWs are encouraged not to associate with non-JWs.  Anyone who has ever been in the Organization for any length of time, knows that is the case.  Mr. Jones, like you said, calls it like it is.

They hate both of us, but the thing about Mr. Jones, is that he has been on the inside and knows a great deal more than me, about the workings of the local congregation.  My expertise is doctrinal, from a Biblical perspective.  No matter that I haven't actually ever BEEN a JW....that doesn't stop them from labelling me as an "apostate" anyway...:)

But Mr. Jones WAS one of them.  And to them, they view someone like him as a threat, because he knows too much.  So, they must discredit him.  Sad...I really can't see Jesus acting like the ones on here.


YOU:  "A thought, maybe the Society placed some of them here because they may not have good people skills."

REPLY:  Well, I agree with you about them not having people skills.  But the Society placing them on here?  I can't imagine.  I can only verify that this was true of ONE, possibly two.  And of course, the one I know for sure was here by the Society's request, is now gone.  

The others....I think they are just zealous to "do something", but don't know how to go about doing it, and they think lying, slander, and insulting, is somehow what Jehovah had in mind.


YOU:  "This Sunday we were out in service, knocked on this door, the male, was very very angry with us. I think whoever knocked on his door before told him we are all sinners born into sin, because one of his statements was he was told that even a baby is a sinner, that really sent him off, started to curse & said do not come back to his door any more...add him to the list of DND, & said anyone of us knocks again, he'll punch them in the face."

REPLY:  I am sorry you had such an experience with a person of this sort.  That's a shame.  He could just as easily asked in a NICE way, for you guys not to call again.  That reminded me of a question I had on here several years back, where a guy mentioned the possibility of shooting the next JW that came to his door.  I told him that was not a sensible reaction, and that it would be preferable to just TELL them he wasn't interested, and not to come back.  

Some people are "off their rockers", and you must be very careful.  

I'm not sure why this would set the guy off.  As far as a baby being a sinner, the answer is "yes" and "no".  YES, in that ALL humans are born with an inherited sin nature, that we got from Adam.  ALL people have the inclination to sin, even babies.  NO, in that small babies are not capable of CHOOSING to commit a sinful act, nor understanding that what they are doing is sinful.  But due to their sin nature at birth, that WILL come in time, as they grow older.  You don't have to teach a child how to lie....you have to teach them NOT to.  

Furthermore, babies are NOT held accountable for being born with a sin nature, until they have a conscious understanding of what sin is.  The notion that a baby is held accountable before God, based on the righteousness/unrighteousness of its parents, is one of the sorriest teachings I have ever heard of, and one of the most unbiblical, as well.

Anyway, I am not sure why being told a baby has a sin nature, would set the guy off to the point of wanting to punch somebody.  Sounds like the has some issues.


Anyway Dee, it is always good to hear from you.  I will be unavailable next week, because my wife and I are going away for our 20th anniversary.  But you can reach me the following week.

I hope you are well, and that you have a good evening.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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