Jehovah`s Witness/Is God Father ?

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QUESTION: Derrick hope you are doing well! Can you tell me why you think the JW are wrong re saying God is not Father to the great crowd now even though they say they can call him Father, but that they will only become free sons of God once they have passed a test based on their own merits   

Shalom!

ANSWER: Hello, Johan.  How are you?  Man, I'm sorry for once again, the long delay.  I have been on here very little in the past several weeks.  It has literally been one thing after another.  In fact, I saw several weeks (actually back in early May), where some more lies had been told in reference to me, by 2 of the JW experts here, and I was planning to respond.  But due to an extremely full schedule, I didn't even do that.  Not much point now, I guess.  They're gonna lie, because that is the only way they know how to act towards those who come armed against their teachings with the Scriptures.


Anyway, to get to your question.  You asked....

"Can you tell me why you think the JW are wrong re saying God is not Father to the great crowd now even though they say they can call him Father, but that they will only become free sons of God once they have passed a test based on their own merits."


Well, they are wrong for a number of reasons.  Should we approach it from the angle of the false "great crowd" doctrine?  You know, a teaching is only as strong as the foundation it rests on, and the WT teaching regarding the "great crowd" is itself, unscriptural.  But let's go from another angle.

There are a couple of Scriptures that come to mind, that should put the issue to rest.  You know, I wanted to compare these Scriptures, with the ones that say that God is not Father but to the "anointed" ones.  But you know what?  I couldn't find those, so no comparison is possible.

Anyway, the Bible very clearly, and plainly, tells us who are "sons"/"children" of God.


John 1:12-13-  "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:  

Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God."


How simple is that?  WHO have been given the power to become God's "sons"?  Clearly, it is those who RECEIVED Him, and believe on His name.  Not one word about being part some group of 144,000 select indiviuduals, not one word about belonging to an Organization....just faith in Christ.  


Now, let's look at another passage....


Galatians 3:26-29-  "For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.  

For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.  

And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."


Well, how's that passage for showing the error of Watchtower teaching, not only in regards to the distinction between the "great crowd" and the "anointed", but also the notion that we only become a "son" of God by passing a test?  Again, we see the requirement to be a child of God, is FAITH in Christ Jesus.  Why do they keep wanting to add to that??


Condsider also....


Romans 8:14-16-  "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"


Again, I'm trying my best to find the WT requirements in this passage of Scripture.

To answer your question "Why do I think they are wrong?"  Well, because their view doesn't seem to have any solid Scriptural support, and the verses above, seem to contradict their view.  That would be the biggest reason.

Take care, Johan.  God bless.  




---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks Derrick for your reply ! I asked Drake yo explain ! He gave me an Genesis to Armageddon reply but nowhere could he share scriptures to show where it says anything of the  Great crowd distincting them as children now in the await to pass a test to become free sons! Yet he says they can call him Father! Though I commend him for his lenghtly response . you will the verses totalu lacking as if the long sermon will answer it!   

So in affect what the JW are saying is that Jesus came to die to make it  only possible for the great crowd to pass a test based on their own merits before they are accepted as free sons, but if you are of the special class who will rule with him in heaven you are accepted as a son of God without heaving to pass a test and dont come into judgement !     

Shalom and kleep well!

ANSWER: Hello, Johan.  Yes, it would be helpful in comparing Scriptures, if we had some to compare.  

I will be honest, in that I did not read in detail Mr. Drake's answer to you, but I did skim through it.  I was looking for the passages of Scripture which support the Watchtower view, but apparently I missed them, because I found none.  Perhaps they were there, but I didn't see them.  If there is a passage that indicates in any way, that the "great crowd" are not actually "sons" of God at this time, then please bring it to my attention, and I will be happy to discuss it.

Now, I want to show respect to Mr. Drake, as I believe he is sincere and carries himself with politeness and respect for his questioner.  That is commendable.  So, what I am about to say is not about him personally, but rather an observation that I made while skimming his reply to you.  Again, I did not read every line, but what I did see, here is what I noticed.....He listed a good many Scriptures, but they were on topics that we would basically be in agreement with JWs on, but then a number of statements (with which we would disagree), simply "thrown out" there, with no Scriptural support at all.  

Such as this one....."But since they are still imperfect, being fully acknowledged as Godís children is yet future."


That one sort of jumped out at me.  First of all, ALL people are imperfect, including those whom he would regard as of the "anointed".  I mean, there are some who make this claim, who even tell lies....imagine that.  Perfection has nothing to do with it, and I felt this statement overlooks the fact that when we believe on Christ (the requirement for BECOMING a "son of God"), then we are given credit for HIS righteousness, which is imputed to our account.

Romans 5:16-19-  "And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.  

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)  

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.  

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."


Romans 10:3-4, 10-  "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.  

For Christ [is] the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth."

v. 10-  "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."


2 Corinthians 5:21-  "For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him."


Philipians 3:9-  "And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:"


So many more could be given, but you get the picture....It isn't about OUR righteousness, but its all about HIS righteousness, which we are given credit for, by faith in Him.  It is only that righteousness, that allows us the privilege of being "sons of God".  

That is the biggest problem with the above comment....It completely fails to take into account, the fact that we are not under some "test" to become a "son of God", but are given that honor by Christ's righteousness, which is applied to us, when we trust in Him.  

Sadly, there was no verse of Scripture given after the statement, that we might examine to see what it is saying.


You wrote...."So in affect what the JW are saying is that Jesus came to die to make it  only possible for the great crowd to pass a test based on their own merits before they are accepted as free sons, but if you are of the special class who will rule with him in heaven you are accepted as a son of God without heaving to pass a test and dont come into judgement"


Yes, that is what I am getting, as well.  Unfortunately, the Bible does not teach that, and sadly, many people are being deprived the wonderful privilege of being a child of God, when the blood of Jesus Christ has made this offer open to ALL people.  

I hope you have a good evening, Johan.  God bless.


Derrick

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thanks again Derrick!

Yes I agree unlike Grunbaum Drake is polite and show respect for his questioner which we all can see and commend , though sincerely wrong!

As I said to Drake one has no other option ,but to believe then that the WTS and JW are nullifying Jesus death for the great crowd , since you are not accepted as son cause of what Jesus did, but rather you are accepted based on your own merits !

God bless and have a nice day!

Answer
Hello, Johan.  You know, there are many WT teachings that I disagree with, when placed alongside the Bible.  But this one here in regards to the "great crowd" not being "sons of God" until passing a future test, is a real head-scratcher.  

There are some JW doctrines that I can look at, and say "Okay, even though I don't agree, I can see how they might arrive at that conclusion".  Then, there are those that simply leave one shaking their head in amazement, that a doctrine could be so directly contradictory to the Scriptures, and the ones believing the doctrine, cannot see it.  

The doctrine we are discussing now, falls into the second category.

In regards to WHEN we become "sons" of God, then I will just leave you with a Scripture that I believe knocks the legs out from under the Watchtower teaching.....

Romans 8:14-16-  "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.  

For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.  

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:"


Notice this passage is not referring to something that will happen after passing some future test, but is written in past tense, as something that we HAVE received when we trusted in Christ.    

Thanks for writing, Johan, and take care.


Derrick

Jehovah`s Witness

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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