Jehovah`s Witness/Revelations

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QUESTION: Good day

Can you please commment on these two verses for me; Rev 8:10 and Rev 9:1. Why does the Society say that the star that had fallen is Jesus in Rev 9? Would you not say that the star in question is the very one that is mentioned in Rev 8:10?

In Revelations 1 we are told that the stars are the anointed Christians and in Rev 12 it is said that the dragon dragged a third of the stars to earth, is that not referring to the anointed?

I am having difficulties in understanding the Societies stand on these verses. In the Climax book it is said that the fallen stars in Rev 12 are those in Noah's days, was not Revelations written about the things about to take place and not history?

Thank you

ANSWER: Hello mate

Thank's for writing.

Sorry for the delay.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<Can you please commment on these two verses for me; Rev 8:10 and Rev 9:1. Why does the Society say that the star that had fallen is Jesus in Rev 9? Would you not say that the star in question is the very one that is mentioned in Rev 8:10?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

You're going to struggle greatly if you base a belief on one word. To base your argument on the word "fall" or "fallen" is very weak indeed. It's the way we used to do thing's years ago back in the day's of Brother Russell and Bro Rutherford we've learnt a lot since then. Rather interpretation is largely to be a combination of parallel ,context and common sense.

In the first instance we see this star "Wormwood" which denote's something poisonous which kills many people by it's poison we also see it makes people bitter.

10  "And the third angel blew his trumpet. And a great star burning as a lamp fell from heaven, and it fell upon a third of the rivers and upon the fountains of waters. 11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood. And a third of the waters turned into wormwood, and many of the men died from the waters, because these had been made bitter"

So this star really isn't nice at all.

On the other hand in Rev 9 the star here releases "locusts" from a prison to torment the unrighteous to torment those on not on the side of God.

9 "And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads"

So this is obviously something/someone righteous.

So reading context it's obvious these aren't the same stars.

<<<<<<<<<<<<In Revelations 1 we are told that the stars are the anointed Christians and in Rev 12 it is said that the dragon dragged a third of the stars to earth, is that not referring to the anointed? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

See again you're going on the word "stars" it just doesn't work.

In Rev 1 we see Jesus has control of these stars

16" And he had in his right hand seven stars, and out of his mouth a sharp, long two-edged sword was protruding, and his countenance was as the sun when it shines in its power. 17 And when I saw him, I fell as dead at his feet.
And he laid his right hand upon me and said: “Do not be fearful. I am the First and the Last"

Whereas on the other hand in Rev 12 we see a description of the dragon/Satan and he has these stars under his control.

4 "and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth."

This is even before the birth of the Kingdom

4" And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, that, when she did give birth, it might devour her child"

So it can't be the anointed.

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<I am having difficulties in understanding the Societies stand on these verses. In the Climax book it is said that the fallen stars in Rev 12 are those in Noah's days, was not Revelations written about the things about to take place and not history?>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's just a description of Satan, it's not an action of Satan. In John's day Satan had control of the demon's and in his future vision he still had control of the demon's.

So just remember Parallel, context and common sense. Try to avoid basing an argument on a single word as much as possible.

Follow up if you need

Take Care





---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: common sense you say???

Please tell me, is it possible or not for an anointed to fall?

and is it common sense to believe that the stars are the anointed or not

Thanks

ANSWER: Hello again

Thanks for writing

I'm not sure what you mean about an anointed falling.

I'm assuming you mean Jesus falling from heaven, so that's what I'll answer.

Like I said you can't base a belief on a single word. There's many ways you can fall , fall from grace, fall in love ,fall over or fall through the sky. etc etc

If Jesus had to ascend to heaven then he has to descend to Earth or in other words if he had to rise to heaven he has to fall to Earth.

Fall = Descend , because he comes from heaven.

Follow up if you need

Take Care

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: just re-read your first response - did you imply that Russell never used common sense?

back to the question at hand - does not falling in biblical terms refer to falling out of favor with God?

Does applying the term "fallen star" make sense to you if when you apply it to Jesus (Rev 9:1), Christendom (Rev 8:10) and demons (Rev 12:4)?


In your view why is the Bible inconsistent by describing Jesus as "coming down from heaven" and not falling Rev 20:1?

Answer
<<<<<<<<<just re-read your first response - did you imply that Russell never used common sense?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

No that's not what I implied. He certainly had the basics right. He pioneered the way. But unfortunately he came out of the "blackness" of the Churches of Christendom and he didn't have time to thoroughly study and analyze all 31+ thousand verses of scripture before his death. So he concentrated on the important one's and got them right just as God directed him.

<<<<<<<does not falling in biblical terms refer to falling out of favor with God?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Not always no

Gen 2:

21 "Hence Jehovah God had a deep sleep fall upon the man"

33:

4 "And E′sau went running to meet him, and he began to embrace him and fall upon his neck and kiss him"

Psalms 140:

10 "Let them be made to fall .............. into watery pits"

Acts 5:

15 "shadow might fall upon some one of them"

And hundreds more.

<<<<<<<<<Does applying the term "fallen star" make sense to you if when you apply it to Jesus (Rev 9:1), Christendom (Rev 8:10) and demons (Rev 12:4)?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Yes absolutely!!

As I explained you get the answer by reading CONTEXT, not hand picking words at random!!

<<<<<<<<<<<In your view why is the Bible inconsistent by describing Jesus as "coming down from heaven" and not falling Rev 20:1?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

It's not inconsistent.

It's actually really quite simple fall means many things including descend.

It's a bit like saying , why are these expressions inconsistent.

Matt 20:

28 "to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many"

Gal 2:

21 "Christ actually died"

Why does one say "died" and one say "give his soul" ?? Because it means EXACTLY the same thing.

Just the same as "fall" means "coming down" . It's basic English and really not that difficult to understand.

http://www.talkenglish.com/Grammar/Grammar.aspx

There's nothing inconsistent about it.

Follow up if you need

Take Care.  

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I have many years of experience serving Jehovah . I have known Jehovah a long time and I have known his organization . I have been privileged to see great progress not only in my own personal relationship with my God and Father but within his organization. I am an avid reader of the bible and have been gifted by my Father with the indescribable privilege of being allowed to understand his own word.

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The truth is all about scripture and logic. The two go hand in hand . There is not one bible verse that cannot be understood within the realms of human reasoning. Not one!! Why would it?? The bible is God's message to his creation . His creation who he made to understand things in a specific way. God is not stupid or unwise as to leave as a message then allow us to guess what it means or who he is. 1 Tim 2:3This is fine and acceptable in the sight of our Savior, God, 4whose will is that all sorts of people should be saved and come to an accurate knowledge of truth" Notice the expression "accurate knowledge".

Organizations
The bible leaves signs of true christianity there are many. Jehovah's witnesses meet every single sign. One sign is the removal of false teachings that permeated the world soon after the apostles died. Jesus foretold this and he also foretold of the restoration of pure worship in the period known as the last days. The days we are currently living in. Jesus was a master of using illustrations he used an illustration to highlight this point Matt 13: "The Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a man who sowed fine seed in his field. 25While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat and left. 26When the stalk sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds also appeared. 27So the slaves of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it have weeds?’ 28He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ The slaves said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29He said, ‘No, for fear that while collecting the weeds, you uproot the wheat with them. 30Let both grow together until the harvest, and in the harvest season, I will tell the reapers: First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up; then gather the wheat into my storehouse" Why did he speak in illustrations? Matt 13:10So the disciples came and said to him: “Why do you speak to them by the use of illustrations?” 11In reply he said: “To you it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the Kingdom of the heavens, but to them it is not granted" The kingdom of the heavens is full of sacred secrets that Jesus reveals only to his followers. This privilege is open to all who are really willing to submit to God and his Christ in action not just in words. These are the ones God is looking for. Are you really one?? If so I encourage you to let Jehovah's witnesses show you what the Bible really teaches.

Education/Credentials
False religion is disgusting to God and to his true worshippers it is likened in the Bible to a harlot Rev 17:"I will show you the judgment upon the great harlot who sits on many waters, 2with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, whereas those who inhabit the earth were made drunk with the wine of her fornication" Whereas the bride of Christ is likened to a virgin Rev 14: 4"These are the ones who did not defile themselves with women; in fact, they are virgins" These are both used as spiritual terms here and show the importance of pure and clean worship for God's people.

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