Jehovah`s Witness/Revelations 8:10 and 9:10
Good day Sister Doxsey
Please note that i have posed this question to the other "experts" on this site. I only sent it to you for readers to compare. I have connected the dots around these verses, hoping others will as well
Can you please commment on these two verses for me; Rev 8:10 and Rev 9:1. Why does the Society say that the star that had fallen is Jesus in Rev 9? Would you not say that the star in question is the very one that is mentioned in Rev 8:10?
In Revelations 1 we are told that the stars are the anointed Christians and in Rev 12 it is said that the dragon dragged a third of the stars to earth, is that not referring to the anointed?
I am having difficulties in understanding the Societies stand on these verses. In the Climax book it is said that the fallen stars in Rev 12 are those in Noah's days, was not Revelations written about the things about to take place and not history?
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"The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water"
Heb.12:23; 2Pet.1:10; 3:17
"The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss."
There are four reasons I know of, as to why the Organization of "Jehovah's Witnesses" believe that the "fallen star" of Rev.9:1 is Jesus Christ.
1. Jesus is spoken of as coming "down out of heaven" (Rev.20:1)
2. Jesus is said to have the key to the abyss (Rev.20:1; 1:18)
3. The "stars" of Revelation are compared to "angels" (Rev.1:20)
so they may view this star as Michael the Archangel. (Rev.12:7; 22:16)
(They also view Job38:7 as applying to the original creation...
not prophetically to the new creation, so they would consistently
see these angels as spirits in literal heaven. "JW's" conclude
that "angel" is literal, and that all angels must be spirit beings
of the sort which were never human.
4. JW's" can't imagine that their own collective anointed leader identity, with power over
living spiritual waters ("springs" John4:14; Rev.8:10), could ever "fall".
As long as such ones retain power and remain in subjection to the Organization
(they have forgotten about subjection to God);
they believe that they need not be concerned with "falling" from God's grace.
(Jer.22:5; Matt.7:21; 23:38; Amos6:8; Rev.8:8) This is their false sense
of "peace and security" (1Thess.5:3).
I do not agree with these interpretations. I hope to show by means of scripture, why I have this faith.
These interpretations can only hold incontrovertibly true, IF :
1. No other star but Jesus "falls from heaven"
(right away we know this is not true, due to Rev.8:10,11)
2. No one else has a key to the Abyss
3. Stars/angels can only be spirit beings (not human messengers)
4. Anointed are NOT prophesied to "fall" in the Lord's Day, while
they have the approval of men.
And lastly, any interpretations must be by means of scripture, and harmonious with Biblical context.
If the Bible informs us that:
1. Other stars "fall" from heaven;
then we must explore the possibility that these other stars can also
fulfill the prophecy of Rev.9:1. This possibility must be explored scripturally.
2. If these same others can also have a key to the abyss, the possibility
that these fulfill this role is strengthened. Again, this must be
3. If "stars"/"angels" are anointed human messengers *according to the Bible*,
then this possible impact upon prophecy must be considered.
"Angel" simply means "messenger". We must not assume then, that God's only
messengers/angels, are unseen (Isa.43:10,11,21; 1Pet.2:9; 2Cor.5:20).
4. If anointed ARE the symbolic stars/angels, and a "great" one is prophesied to "fall"
during Revelation's end-time prophecies, then we can not assume
that the fallen stars MUST be demon angels from the flood era (Rev.12:4),
OR Jesus Christ (Rev.20:1), OR Christendom (Rev.8:10,11)
(which is not an anointed star at all -Rev.1:20).
And lastly, if the stars of Rev.8:10 and Rev.9:1 prove Biblically true as consistently meaning anointed ones (Rev.1:20); that singular, cohesive, consistent interpretation, must be explored as an option for this prophetic fulfillment.
If this new prophetic interpretation also proves harmonious, not only to Revelation's context, but also to the Bible as a whole; it must be preferred as a more accurate interpretation; rather than those interpretations taken out of Revelation's full context.
First let me point out that while the WT dismisses the possibility that the fallen star of Rev.9:1 can be anyone but Jesus Christ, their interpretation is not consistent with their interpretation of the fallen stars of Rev.8:10 or Rev.12:4.
The fallen star of Rev.8:10 is interpreted as human (Christendom); Yet Rev.12:4 is interpreted as ancient demonic figures.
Such baseless inconsistencies should not be assumed as true. If scripture itself points to a different, yet consistent identity for these "stars"/"angels"; it is reasonable to allow this harmonious scriptural consistency to persuade us.
Further reason exists, if this consistent identity is harmonious to parallel accounts of the same prophecies.
1.Are anointed ones symbolized by "stars"/"angels" in the Bible
and book of Revelation?
2.Are anointed ones prophesied to "fall" "in the Lord's day"?
3.Who else holds a "key" to the abyss?
Can unfaithful anointed ones receive a "key" to the abyss?
If so, from whom? For what purpose?
If ONE identity (unfaithful anointed ones) consistently fulfills ALL the meanings and descriptions of this fallen star (Rev.8:10; 9:1; 12:4) *according to scripture*, then we MUST consider this alternate interpretation. It is folly to interpret the very same symbol, inconsistently and out of context, and as unrelated to the rest of the Bible. (IE: "FALLEN STAR" = Jesus Christ, Christendom, flood demons)
What if ALL these "fallen stars" point to the same identity, according to the Bible?
I will approach each building block to our reasoning, separately.
I will not look to the thoughts of men for interpretation,
but to God's Word.
...Who does GOD'S WORD describe as "stars"?:
Dan.12:3; Phil.2:15; Isa.49:6; Matt.5:16; 1Pet.2:9
(Job38:7 ("angels" Hebrew literally: "sons of God")
(stars of the "morning" Isa.58:8; 60:1,2,3; 2Pet.1:19;
1Thess.5:5; Matt.4:16; Job38:7; Rev.1:20)
...Of the NEW CREATION
(Gal.6:15; 2Cor.5:17; Eph.4:24; Col.3:10; Rev.21:5; 2Pet.3:13)
We should also note that Rev.8:10 speaks of this "great" fallen star as "blazing as a torch/lamp".
This reminds us of John5:35,33 and
Rev.4:5; 5:6; which is the light given off by a chosen one who is preaching (Matt.5:15,16,14).
Next I will show scriptures which reveal who the angels "messengers" of the book of Revelation are. This will not be based upon assumptions which seem apparent and surface, but by means of scripture.
The first occurrence where Jesus introduces the "angel" messengers of Revelation, is at Rev.1:1,2:
"The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John, 2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."
We are clearly told that this angel messenger is the one who delivers the "known" meaning of Revelation TO John. Why was not John given the full interpretation of Revelation directly in his own era (Rev.10:4)? Why did he need to have a messenger angel deliver it to him? Why was it shown to him "in the Lord's day"? (Rev.1:10)
Because, these things were not to be revealed until the Lord's Day (Dan.12:4; Rev.22:10). John "heard a voice "behind" him. This voice/"trumpet" (Rev.1:10) was to come after John's ministry. This voice is compared to "rushing waters" (see Rev.14:2; 19:6). These scriptures compare this sound to "harpists playing their harps" and "a great multitude" (Rev.19:1; 7:9,10). But when John turns to look; What does he see?
"I turned around to see the voice that was speaking to me. And when I turned I saw seven golden lampstands" (Rev.1:12)
Do these lampstands compare to the harpists, waters, trumpet, voice?
We are told that the seven lampstands are the seven churches (Rev.1:20) belonging to the seven angels, two of which prophesy truth in the Lord's Day (Rev.11:4,3; John8:17). These two olive trees of the two lampstands, are the ones appointed to serve the Lord (Rev.11:4; 1:13; Zech.4:11,12,13,14) Serve him how? To serve as messengers/"angels"/prophets (Rev.11:3,5). To whom? To the congregations/lampstands. Rev.1:20 B literally says:
"The mystery of the seven stars (anointed illuminators) that you saw in my right hand and of the seven golden lampstands is this: The seven stars are the messengers OF the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches."
Here we are given a clear correlation between the "stars" and the "angels"/messengers OF the seven churches/Congregations.
Jesus tells us that angels and stars are the same identity (as messengers of light Rev.1:20). Yet according to Rev.8:10, one of THESE "falls" (Rev.2:5; 2Pet.1:10; 3:17; 2Cor.11:3). The context of Rev.8:10 (Rev.8:8,9,10,11) dissuades us from seeing this star as an unseen spirit. This is because these stars are not unseen. They are just as Jesus depicts the stars...as messengers/prophets of light, to their congregations.
Rev.1:20 begins by telling us that this is a mystery. Those given revelations into these mysteries, and the responsibility to "voice" them, are the anointed (Zech.4:14; 1Cor.4:1; Rom.16:25)
and the congregational group who receive each of them (Matt.10:40,41,42; 1Thess.2:13).
You have likely discerned that I am promoting the idea that the angel messengers in Revelation are anointed priests. Lets look at more Bible evidence.
We are told that these angels are given seven trumpets (Rev.8:6; Matt.25:7)
(Greek word "trumpet" associated with "voice").
Who does the Bible define these seven trumpet blowers to be, since we must get our interpretation from God and His Word? (Gen.40:8)
Please consider these scriptures:
"Have seven priests carry trumpets of rams' horns in front of the ark. On the seventh day, march around the city seven times, with the priests blowing the trumpets. The seven priests carrying the seven trumpets went forward, marching before the ark of the LORD and blowing the trumpets. The armed men went ahead of them and the rear guard followed the ark of the LORD, while the trumpets kept sounding." Joshua6:4,13
"The sons of Aaron, the priests, are to blow the trumpets. This is to be a lasting ordinance for you and the generations to come." Num.10:8
According to God's interpretation by scripture, there are no other trumpet blowers (of any number). According to these scriptures, the seven angels who blow the seven trumpets (horns), are priests Rev.5:9,10; 6:9,10,11; 20:4,6; Mal.2:7; Eze.44:23; Hosea8:1.
These are not unseen, unheard spirit beings. They are anointed priestly prophets who have been chosen to bear the message of Christ throughout the earth in the time of the end. (See Rev.5:6)(Matt.24:27; Heb.9:11; Zech.3:8,9; Isa.4:2; 11:1; Zech.6:12; Heb.3:1; Dan.8:13,14)
("Horns" are anointed kings Rev.17:12,16,18; 1:5; 5:6,10)
["Eyes" symbolize insight and understanding (Rev.3:18; Matt.6:22; Luke11:34)]
[That insight is by God's spirit (Rev.5:6; Matt.10:20; John16:13; 14:17; 1John2:20,27,28)
given to the seven "angels"/priests/horns (Rev.1:4; 3:1; 4:5; Matt.5:15,16,14; Rev.5:6).
Next, we see in the first three chapters of Revelation, that Jesus disciplines the seven angels of the seven congregations. When you look at what these are accused of, do you perceive them as being human anointed, or invisible spirits in heaven?
Jesus calls these anointed ones angels. According to Rev.1:20, they are, the stars.
Click here for more information about Rev.9-- ( http://pearl-revelation9.blogspot.com
My personal notes for next continuation:
(Makes his angels spirits---you will live the spirit in you---passed over from death to life---will never die at all. Key to Abyss---abyss is death---Heb.2:14; 1Cor.15:54,57; 1John3:8; John8:44; Rev.9:11; Rom.5:17,12,15; James1:15; Rom.5:12; 1John3:8,5,10; Heb.9:26)
I will continue to answer your questions as I am able.
--to be continued--