Jehovah`s Witness/Duplicate message (Archeological Proof for "CROSS")
Hello and Good day to you Sir Brent
Hope you are well and your family... I guess you didn't receive my previous message so I'll send you an another one.. Hope you'll mind this message. It's a duplicate one because I already send this message to EddieG one of the expert in JW forum at ALLEXPERTS.COM. Here's the message I am just going to paste it(I'm really hoping that you'll mind this message):
"Thank you so much EddieG
Thank you for allowing me to prove my point... So let me start out by saying that Stauros and Xylon both have multiple meanings and not just a single one as the WT has implied. Like for an instance, according to Strong's concordance (referred to regularly by the Watchtower) the word stauros can mean;
"(4716) stauros stow-ros' from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:--cross.
(4717) stauroo stow-ro'-o from 4716; to impale on the cross; figuratively, to extinguish (subdue) passion or selfishness:--crucify."
>>Contradicting itself the Awake! 1963 April 8 p.28 actually went on to say;
"While the word xylon generally means a piece of wood, no longer living, it is at times used in the Scriptures to refer to figurative living trees...." ---End quote
By Jesus day xylon had many meanings, including wooden artefacts made out of more than one piece of wood. In classical and Koine Greek xylon was used to refer to "benches" (Demosthenes, 1111.22; Aristophanes, Vespae, 90; Acharnenses, 25)--End quote
>>I've never seen a "tree" that looks just like a single pole. Trees have branches.
So even looking ONLY at these two words, we can see that Stauros and Xylon both have multiple meanings and not just a single one as the WT has implied.
And I may also agree that Stauros originally meant an upright pole, but 100 years before Jesus it came to refer to a pole with
a crossbeam (among other things).
I showed you an example of the same with Xylon, and how it came to refer to something made of wood (eg a bench).
So words change(or has evolve) EddieG. And we have examples of this in English.
The word "GAY" originally meant "happy". But it eventually came to refer to a homosexual person. If we lived in the future and were studying the 90s, we would be confused if we insisted that since "gay" originally referred to being happy, it could mean nothing else.
I hope it does make sense to you...
And also, I want you to consider this ARCHEOLOGICAL FACT: http://www.leaderu.com/theology/burialcave.html
Here are some quotes from the discovery:
The first century catacomb, uncovered by archaeologist P. Bagatti on the Mount of Olives, contains inscriptions clearly indicating its use, "by the very first Christians in Jerusalem."
Here is an example of a "head stone", found near the entrance to the first century catacomb, is inscribed with the sign of the cross:
The catacombs were found and excavated primarily by two well-known archaeologists, but their findings were later read and verified by other scholars such as Yigael Yadin, J. T. Milik and J. Finegan.
You can also check out for this link(from NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC): http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2005/07/0720_050720_christianity_2.html
Further archaeological evidence can be found by examining the body of a man crucified sometime between 7AD and 60AD. The name of the man that archaeologists found was Yehohanan, whos name was inscribed on his tomb.
Here is an article that describes the crucifixion of this man.
An interesting side not about this is that Yehohanan was crucified by the nails being driven in to his ARMS and not his hands. In fact, some have suggested that the translation of "hands" in Luke 24 and John 20 should be translated "arms" rather than hands. Yehohanan's arms were stretched OUT and they were fixed to the cross with nails being driven through his arms. Here is a forensic artists rendering of what this mans crucifixion would have looked like:
So EddieG I'm hoping for your prompt answer as always but, would you start with the evidence based posts from the top and work your way down to show with evidence that they are wrong? I mean, just take the things that have been shown in archaeology and deconstruct them if they are wrong.
Looking forward as always
May Jehovah Bless you more &
Thank you in adv.
God Bless you sir
And I'm also looking forward to your Scholarly response
And as always, thank you in advance
When we compare the words used by Luke when he wrote Acts and Peter who with with Jesus when he died and the Apostle Paul who was trained as a Pharisee being schooled in the LAW of the Jews how they used the worrd xylon = (Wood, plank, club stick, staff and tree) with the first meaning of the word stauro, we can conclude by the use of both words that a single pole or stake was used.
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree <3586>.
And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree <3586>:
And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree <3586>, and laid him in a sepulchre.
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree <3586>:
1Pe 2:24</b> Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree <3586>, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.
Here are some internet references to show that “scholars” do not all agree with the findings about those artefacts. Who is more reliable.... The Bible or disputing scholars??? If one has the time to search the internet and read the various arguments we will find strong argumentation for both sides of the matter. The “Jesus family tombs” are widely debated especially from non Christian people who do not believe that Jesus was resurrected .. Different scholars with different out looks will try to link the “Jesus family tombs “ with other so called “Christian” tombs.
One of the burial options is a sarcophagus which is a stone coffin that apparently rich or important people such as high priests were buried in...
The second coffin called ossuaries were reserved for common people. An ossuary is a small coffin in which the bones of the dead were inside – that means that after a person died, their body was buried in a burial cave and after a certain period of time the bones were removed and placed in an ossuary. http://allaboutjerusalem.com/article/sarcophagus-and-ossuaries
( Bod mine)
Certain ossuaries, such as the one inscribed "Jacob the son of Joseph the brother of Jesus" (provenance unknown) and a group of six inscribed boxes from East Talpiyot bearing names similar to those in the family of Jesus of Nazareth, have recently created much noise in the media. But it is not these sensational individual pieces which interest me so much as the aggregate of the hundreds of names and remnants of lives which are not mentioned in any other source and would otherwise be lost entirely. Through ossuary inscriptions we meet individuals named Shoshana, Shimi, Horkanos, Dositheos, Zechariah, and many, many more, as well as dozens with the common names
Shimon (Simon), Yehosua (Jesus), Yehuda (Judah), Mariam (Mary), Yehonatan (Jonathan) and Yosef (Joseph). http://www.travelujah.com/blogs/entry/Ossuaries-from-Jerusalem
Another one to look at
“A few scholars have already voiced doubts about the site's connections to Christianity and to the nearby "Jesus family tomb" site. New Testament scholar Ben Witherington of Asbury Theological Seminary told MSNBC's Alan Boyle that linking the tombs is "sheer conjecture."
The “Jesus family tomb” mentioned in that is discussed down the page
The following is from page 57 of a google book that can be read on line. The link is at the end. (Italics original, bold and underline mine)
“The Talpioth ossuariescould
therefore well be evidence for the ongoing lamentations of Jesus' death among early Christians in first-century Jerusalem. The cross marks found on these ossuaries are probably protective
taus rather than
Christian crosses which function to protect the burial from being disturbed by evil spirits”
(Italics original underline mine)
1. The opinion of the archaeological expert who knows these ossuaries best
According to The Jerusalem Post, Amos Kloner, the archeologist who officially oversaw the work at the tomb starting in 1980 and has published detailed findings on its contents, dismissed the claims: It makes a great story for a TV film, but it's impossible... There is no likelihood that Jesus and his relatives had a family tomb
. They were a Galilee family with no ties in Jerusalem. The Talpiot tomb belonged to a middle-class family from the 1st century CE. http://www.losttombofjesuschrist.com/
( bold and underline mime)
“Identifying religious affiliations
, especially Jewish or Christian, in ancient epigraphic sources is notoriously fraught with difficulties and complexities, as Ross Kraemer and others have pointed out.57 Many scholars are convinced that the Jewish followers of Jesus, living and dying as Jews, and burying their dead in Jerusalem and Galilee in the 1st century CE <b>left behind no distinctive material remains— no cross or tau marks
, no iconographic images, and no epigrams or inscriptions.58 And yet we have a near contemporary text that explicitly compares the cross to the letter Tau or T <u>two centuries <b>before
the cross was supposed to have first appeared as a Christian</u>symbol (Barnabas 9.8). We hope the evidence in this tomb, alongside its wider immediate context of the “Jesus tomb,” will spur a full reexamination and discussion of the entire phenomenon of Jewish-Christian archaeological remains in 1st century CE Judea and Galilee. In both the case of the Greek inscription and the Jonah image context is everything” - From page 26 of the PDF file found at http://www.bibleinterp.com/PDFs/Tabor2.pdf