Jehovah`s Witness/Answering Eddie G's Questions To Me...
Eddie G posed several questions to me, in regards to what I expected from him in regards to truth. While I do not doubt Eddie's sincerity as a person, he simply made some very inaccurate statements, which I had to address. He published a series of writings several weeks back, stating that Christians WORSHIP the cross. He stated this, not once, but several times. In addition, he took an unscriptural and historically false position, that our Savior did not die on a cross, but instead, on an upright pole.
Someone may ask...."What's the big deal HOW He died, as long as we understand that He DID die?"
I agree somewhat with this question, but let it be known that it is not us, but rather the JWs, who make this an issue of contention. And they are wrong, both Scripturally and historically. When I return next week, I will address this more in detail. But for now, I am going to answer Eddie's questions posed to me, and address some observations of my own, and also...
Ask him for a retraction of his comment, that Christians WORSHIP crosses.
I have to say that I noticed that Eddie's manner of writing, seems to appeal more to the emotion, than to logic. Misquoting me, challenging me to "tell the truth", trying to make his case as dramatic as possible. Anyway, my goal will be to simply address his comments, and point out where I believe his arguments are illogical, presumptuous, and unscriptural. My response is so lengthy, because unfortunately, there were many such instances of his being illogical.
In reference to Eddie G’s question….”OK Mr. Holland what truth are you looking for?”, I will now provide a response.
Eddie, I am looking for truth in ANY AND ALL comments made in this public forum, by a person who is a Jehovah’s Witness in good standing, and who claims to be a person of “the truth”?
This means that ALL of your statements regarding another person, OR the beliefs of someone else that you presume to make a topic of conversation, should be true and accurate. And if at ANY time you are made aware of an error, you should immediately issue a correction/retraction.
Just as you, a JW, resent someone coming on here and stating something false about your beliefs, you need to apply the same standard when speaking of the beliefs of others, as well. That sword cuts both ways, Sir. I have never understood how JWs can complain and talk about “opposers tell lies on us“, and then turn right around and make statements about our doctrine, that are outright false, and plain ridiculous.
Now on that count, I would like to let you know that I personally have corrected MANY false notions that people have about JWs, when they have voiced those misconceptions in their questions. One such issue, is the often-repeated charge that “Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus Christ!” Several times I have had a questioner say/ask this, and I always correct the falsehood, and acknowledge that Jehovah’s Witnesses DO believe in Jesus Christ, although their concept of Who He is, is not Biblical in my view. Then, the lying Rando comes on here and repeats at least a hundred times now, that “Born again Christians don’t believe Jesus is the Christ”, and there is nothing on the part of a single JW here, to make sure this false statement is corrected.
That’s the type of truth I’m talking about, Sir. Why should we all not have a right to expect this, Eddie?
Do you believe that its okay to misrepresent the doctrine of others, just because you don’t happen to agree with it? If you think a person’s doctrine is wrong, you don’t have to tell the truth about what it is, when you talk about it?
Let me just address this one briefly, since you brought it up. You said…
“Are you asking for personal truth about a person here? Sorry I can't do that as it's a personal matter between you and the person.”
Well, we both know that you are referencing myself and Rando here. Now, if you choose to stay out of it, that’s fine. I can certainly handle him myself, as I have for years now. He always follows the same predictable pattern, anyway.
However, I think this comment of yours is quite revealing. It reveals to me that you KNOW he is guilty of lying. That is why you don’t want to have to address it. I understand, his actions selfishly put other Witnesses such as yourself, in a difficult position. And he doesn’t seem to care. You don’t want to come out in public and admit a fellow “brother” is an embarrassment, but you can’t come out and say he’s honest, either. Must be embarrassing.
Here is how I would handle a situation like that, however. Let’s just say a fellow born again Christian was on this forum, constantly spreading lies. Let’s just say he was maliciously attacking you and your character, with things like “Eddie G beats his wife, is a drunkard, and a thief, and he was a former Baptist church-goer, but he got out in sin and eventually left the church”. But in reality, he has never met you, and has no knowledge of you. His goal was merely to discredit you.
Then, let’s say he also posted numerous articles, claiming that “Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t believe in Jesus Christ, or that He died for their sins, and that they have no morals whatsoever”.
You know what I would do, Eddie? First of all, I don’t have to worry about it, because NOBODY else besides the JW in question, even does this sort of thing. But for the sake of this point, I would write in private to this “brother”, and say….”Brother/Sister, WHAT ARE YOU DOING?? Do you not realize that our job is to be a reflection of Jesus Christ, and that we must be accurate in our statements? Our goal is not to attack anybody personally, but to expose their false doctrine, in the hopes that we might win them to Christ.”
I would then ask the person to make a public retraction, for the sake of their Christian testimony. If they are truly a Christian, surely they would want to do this. If they refused, I would publicly distance myself from them, and would sadly have to make a statement that they do not represent the Christian beliefs that I hold dear, in a way that is honoring to our Savior.
What I would NOT do, is after reading their countless lies, is write to them, with this “Phileo/Agape, my dear Brother in Christ, thank you for your wonderful information”, especially after I had seen them lie time and time again, and knew they had no remorse.
And I certainly would not DARE to turn around and post how morally superior JWs are, and how “we deal with liars in our wonderful Organization”.
You really don’t see how that looks, Eddie?
Look, I can handle that clown myself. That isn’t the point. The point is, why you people who claim to love truth so much, consistently misrepresent, and applaud those who are proven liars, and then think you are going to convince people that you have “the truth”, and such high standards.
And yes, Eddie, you misrepresent things also. You made several comments about Christians and the cross, which were complete nonsense. And unfortunately, you seem as if you are going to stick with your story, by repeating your comment and calling it a “FACT”.
I quote….”So by your own testimony, you've accused me of LYING and an IGNORAMUS for stating the FACT that "Christians WORSHIP crosses?"
Several problems with this comment. First, it is not a “fact“ that Christians worship crosses. It is completely false. I believe that, since I AM a born again Christian and have been one for 28 years now, I am in a much better position than you are, to state what our worship practices are.
Now, had you simply said that Roman Catholics employ the worship of images, which amounts to idolatry, in their worship, you would have had a point. But you didn‘t….you lumped all Christians together, and said the “majority“ of Christians do it.
Now, I will counter your false statement, and say this….NO true born again, Bible-believing Christian, worships crosses.
Now, one of us is wrong. And it isn’t me. By the way, what was YOUR former religion, Eddie?
This is the problem with you people….You presume to think you know more about other people’s beliefs and practices, than they know themselves. And the result is, you make yourself look silly. Now, I am not going to have a long, drawn out argument with you, on how, what, or Who, we worship. You don’t know what you’re talking about…I do. And I resent your coming on here and making this utterly absurd, and false statement.
Now, let’s define the term “Christian” here. For your statement to have ANY sense of merit at all, you would have to define it loosely, as in…”60% of Americans consider themselves as Christians”, and they base this on their living in America, or having attended a church at some point in their life, or perhaps they were baptized as a baby, or something such as that, that has nothing to do with being a Christian.
I am defining “Christian” in the Biblical way….One who has been born again into the family of God, by virtue of having placed their faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and have become a “new creature in Christ Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:17).
Scripturally speaking, that is the ONLY kind of “Christian” there is. If a person is relying on being a good Baptist, Methodist, Catholic, Presbyterian, Lutheran, Pentecostal, or JW to save them, then they are lost, and not a true Christian in the Biblical sense.
So again, I say unequivocally that NO born again, Bible-believing Christian, worships a cross. And for you to make that statement, makes you guilty of falsehood.
Now, to the 2nd part of this comment of yours. How you managed to misunderstand what I said, is typical of how JWs cannot comprehend what is right in front of them, because they for some reason, tend to misread and misinterpret everything.
Let me illustrate from the following statement from you…..
YOU: “So by your own testimony, you've accused me of LYING and an IGNORAMUS for stating the FACT that "Christians WORSHIP crosses?"
WHAT I ACTUALLY SAID: “Like Eddie G telling the reading audience the other week, that Christians WORSHIP crosses! Have you ever heard of anything so ludicrous? Does he know that's a lie, or is he just that ignorant? "Pure ignorance", as your question title states? I don't know...but either way, he certainly has no business making a statement like that in a public forum.”
Uh Eddie, I am confident that everyone reading this, can see that I did not say you were “lying AND an ignoramus”. I clearly left it open to be either/or. I even clearly stated “I don’t know” which it is. A lot of that will depend on where it goes from here. If you acknowledge your comment on Christians worshipping crosses was false, then I have no problem assuming you were just ignorant. If you persist in your false statement after being told by someone in the know, that you are misrepresenting us, then you are lying.
So no, I did not say you were both lying and an ignoramus. But you are definitely ONE of the two, because your statement is false.
And whichever one turns out to be the case, you had NO business making that statement then, and you had no business repeating it as a “FACT” now.
YOU: “Yes, how about the Cross? Since you specifically said that I "lied and is ignorant" about it, let's get to the bottom of it. Let's see who's telling the truth!”
REPLY: Just shaking my head…again. Shaking it at your inability to even read a simple statement, and get it right. I did NOT say you “lied AND is ignorant”, Eddie. First off, my grammar is better than that. Don’t put something in quotes, unless you are QUOTING me correctly. I would appreciate it.
And you want to “get to the bottom of it and see who’s telling the truth”, Eddie, and you can’t even get a simple quote correct? How can we get to the bottom of anything, if I am constantly having to stop and correct your misinterpretation of what I just said? Yet, we are supposed to rely on you to get the facts of history correct, especially when you are using quotes? We are supposed to trust you to CORRECTLY state what the position is of other Christians, and yet you repeatedly misread and misinterpret things?
This is why its hard to take you guys seriously….Just stuff like that right there. And you wonder why??
Moving on, I will discuss this issue of crosses in MUCH more detail later on in this reply, but right now, I am merely addressing your comments to me.
I was also going to address your posts, where you distorted the facts of whether or not the cross was the instrument on which Christ was put to death, but I think I will save that for another separate writing when I return to the board next week. You distorted the facts of history, not to mention you made a number of completely irrelevant points, which have nothing to do with the question of whether Jesus died on a pole with a cross-beam. He did, and the evidence is overwhelming.
I will save that for a separate writing, when I have time next week. For now, I will address your comments, and also the ridiculous notion that Christians worship the cross, and that a Christian carrying a cross is an act of worship.
YOU: “Is it the truth where YOU think I "know next to nothing about"?
Such as the Trinity Doctrine? Is it that one? If so please let me know. But are you aware that the very word Trinity is not in the Bible? What about the doctrine, is it scriptural? Would you like to know?”
REPLY: That isn’t what I was referring to, specifically. My comments were more directed at your more recent false comments about the cross, however I am sure if I looked back at your answers, I could find some misrepresentations of the Trinity, as well.
Eddie, is this a subtle challenge to a debate on the Trinity? I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but if that is what you would like, you just let me know. I will be happy to oblige. I seriously doubt you have anything I haven’t heard before, as JW answers typically follow the same pattern, considering they come from the same source.
And let me assure you, that if you plan on using weak arguments such as “Are you aware the very word Trinity is not in the Bible?”, then you will be in for a long and rough debate. I hope you have something better than that.
At any rate, if a Trinity debate is what you have on your mind, then perhaps that is something we can look at after my reply to you on the subject of the cross. Obviously we would have to first discuss, and agree upon, a format and some basic guidelines. That is pretty much standard with any debate, and we would both have to agree on them.
If you REALLY want to know the truth, I am more interested in some statements I read in your profile, regarding your scientific beliefs. Some things there I just couldn’t reconcile with JW doctrine, and would like to pick your brain about. But I’ll get to that another time, also.
YOU: “Now, how could this be a lie since it's a well known fact that the MAIN SYMBOL of Christianity is the Cross? Why is this a lie since majority of "Christians" view the cross as part of their worship to God?”
REPLY: There are 2 things wrong with this. One, is that the “majority of Christians do NOT view the cross as part of their worship to God”. I can honestly say that, in my 28 years of being a born again Christian, and having attended services in Baptist, and several Pentecostal churches, I have never once seen a Christian bow before a cross, or do an act of worship to it. I did attend 1 Catholic Mass in my lifetime, for curiosity reasons, with my wife being a former Catholic, and wanting to know more about their beliefs in an attempt to reach out to some of her family. That would be about the closest thing to “worshipping a cross” that I have ever witnessed.
Not one born again Christian I know, makes the “sign of the cross”, bows down to the cross, or views the cross as ANYTHING but a reminder of the death of Jesus Christ. And YES, we do acknowledge and believe that it was a cross that Jesus died on, and its about time for the WT Society to receive “new light” on this outdated doctrine, as well, because all the evidence is against them.
But the cross is just that….the instrument of Jesus’ death. The cross is not an object of worship, and it is not a good luck charm, and it doesn’t protect us from ANYTHING. It is an emblem that serves as a reminder…nothing more.
EDDIE G: “What about this one where I said?
> If you are a Christian and believe that the cross is something sacred and is a part of your sacred worship to God, then this post is not for you for it will question and shake the very foundation of your faith. It will shock you to your very core.<“
REPLY: What about it, Eddie? Again, the comment was based on your false statement, that the cross is part of our sacred worship, which it is not.
Therefore, your post did not “shake the foundation” of my faith. Didn’t even move it a little. The only thing shocking, is how you can be so irresponsible with the truth.
I would like for you to explain to all of us, exactly what role you believe the cross plays in the WORSHIP of a born again Christian. This should be interesting.
EDDIE G: “Really, did I lie in that post too? If so please by all means inform me, I'm all ears because as I stated clearly:”
REPLY: Please stop your complaining, Eddie. I did not say you “lied”. I said you either lied, OR are ignorant. We’ve been over this. I only bring it up again, because the VERY first time you ever wrote to me way back when, you accused me of LYING about the KJV translation of “Easter”. I don’t recall you giving me the benefit of any doubt, that perhaps I might actually believe that the information proved its correctness. No, you claimed I was lying..
I believe I have been much more generous in this regard, than you have been with me.
EDDIE G: “Prove to me that:
1. The cross has nothing to do with the male and female genital organs.
2. That it has nothing to do with sex worship.
3. That it has nothing to do with sun-worship.
4. That it did not already existed way before the advent of Christianity.
5. That is was not introduced / adopted later on by the apostate "Christian Church".
Prove to me that I'm mistaken based on the following archeological and historical facts.<
...because I can assure you I'm 100% correct!”
REPLY: I don’t have to prove it, because it is completely irrelevant to the question of whether Jesus died on a cross, or a stake. Merely showing that a cross has had pagan connotations and has been used in pagan ritual/worship, does not even come close to proving that Jesus didn’t die on one, especially since we KNOW that Romans routinely crucified people ON CROSSES, and we know HOW crucifixions were done in those days. Therefore, #5 is the only one of your points, that has any relevance to the discussions, and I will cover that one in my rebuttal to your posts, when I explore the evidence for the cross being the instrument of execution for Christ.
The first 4 are completely irrelevant, and I must wonder why you would attempt to create a diversion from the real issue…..Did Jesus die on a cross, or a stake?
And on that count, Eddie, I take great exception to your line of reasoning, that the cross having prior pagan connotations, somehow is proof that Jesus wasn’t crucified on one. I don’t guess it ever occurred to you that Jesus was crucified BY pagans, who certainly did not care what previous acts the cross had been used for. I seriously doubt that the Romans said….”No, we will not crucify anyone on a cross, because their pagan worship pre-dates Christianity, so that would be inappropriate”.
That has nothing to do with anything, Eddie. Sorry.
Furthermore, you neglected to mention that the STAKE itself was ALSO a phallic symbol, and had the same pagan connection to the male sex organ that you claim the cross had, and MORE SO. So, whether Jesus died on a cross or a stake, the SAME connection can be made. I didn’t see where you mentioned that, and had your “research” been as exhaustive as you tried to lead us to believe, you couldn’t have missed that part.
I hope you didn't just LEAVE IT OUT on purpose!
Consider the following passage from your NWT…
Exodus 34:13- “But their altars YOU people are to pull down, and their sacred pillars YOU are to shatter, and their sacred poles YOU are to cut down.”
Eddie, I do believe that we have here, PROOF positive that “poles” were used in pagan worship, LONG before Christianity. Hmm…This must prove that Jesus didn’t die on a “pole”, because after all, it has roots in pagan worship which pre-dates Christianity.
If the Watchtower Society wants to find pagan concepts in the death of Jesus they need look no further than their own teaching of a stake. Jesus death on a stake mimics the ancient Sumerian myth of Inanna. Inanna descended into the nether world. There she was turned into a corpse by the seven judges and "the corpse was hung from a stake" for three days and nights. After this she was resurrected by the instructions of Enki, the god of fertility. (The Hero with a Thousand Faces, Joseph Campbell, 1973, See also Mythology A Visual Encylopedia, Jo Forty 1999)
Your “logic” is astounding on this count. Cats have long been worshipped by various pagan groups. Do you have a cat, Eddie? Shouldn’t Christians SHUN cats, because of this? I hope you don’t wear a wedding ring, Eddie, because there is a good bit of evidence that suggests they have pagan origins. How would you feel, Eddie, if I came on here and chastised you and other JWs, claiming that you WORSHIPPED a wedding ring, merely because you use it as a symbol of your marriage, and because it has origins in paganism?
Why be so ridiculous, Eddie? If Christians bow down to a cross, worship a cross, pray to a cross, believe the cross is “good luck” or has some special power, then I agree with you 100%….This is idolatry, should be renounced as wicked, is detestable to God, and should be no PART of a Christian’s worship.
The good news is, we don’t do that. Stop saying we do.
On a side note, I would like to ask if the symbol of a WATCHTOWER itself, has any connection with paganism? I will merely enclose a link, and let the reader decide for themelves.
Now, I would like to discuss the cross as a SYMBOL, or an emblem.
EDDIE: “But wait "you say "we don't worship the cross! We only use it as a reminder, a remembrance!"
Okay, then why KNEEL down to it? Why bow down to it? Why kiss it? Why hold it sacred? Why venerate it? Why carry it around if you're not worshiping it? Really, why do you need such detestable thing as a reminder, a remembrance?
Are we not reminded that we should all be "walking by faith, not by sight.”? 2 Cor 5:7.
So, why carry such a thing?”
“Please be upfront about it and be honest Mr. Holland. Tell us the truth.
If KNEELING DOWN to the CROSS, BOWING TO IT, PRAYING TO IT, KISSING IT, CARRYING IT AROUND, HUGGING IT, VENERATING IT - is not an ACT of WORSHIP then what are these ACTS for?”
REPLY: Eddie, one more time….Born again Christians do NOT kneel TO a cross, bow down TO it, pray TO it, or hopefully, not kiss it. Although kissing it, would not NECESSARILY imply worship. More on that in a moment. I assure you that I have never, nor do I know of anyone who has, bowed, prayed, or worshipped a cross, within the context of a born again and Bible-believing church.
Now, I quoted a long portion from you on this one, and I think your opening comment of “But wait, you say, we don’t worship the cross”, PROVES that you know Christians do not view what they are doing as “worship”. Nor do we need YOU or the Watchtower, to explain to us what worship is.
“Worship” is defined by the online FREE DICTIONARY, as…
“a. The reverent love and devotion accorded a deity, an idol, or a sacred object.
b. The ceremonies, prayers, or other religious forms by which this love is expressed”
Nothing here about carrying something as a reminder, or having it hang in a church as a reminder. Christians that I have fellowshipped with for the past 28 years, do not revere, have devotion for, view as sacred, have ceremonies for, or pray to, a cross. It is an object of WOOD, for goodness’ sakes! Nothing more. It IS, however, the object that reminds us of the price our Savior paid for our forgiveness.
Now, ler’s just deal with this part in some detail, and I will attempt to address your objections here. The part about born again Christians kneeling to, bowing to, or praying to a cross, is simply hogwash, and completely false.
Now, it is true that SOME Christians do own a cross, or carry it, or wear one as a necklace, etc. It is also true that some Bible-believing churches do have a cross hanging in it, although mine does not happen to. I would have no problem with it if it did, but would definitely have a problem if anyone started to worship it. This is NOT worship, and not even close. You have to really do some twisting of the facts, to arrive at that conclusion.
One thing that is common in Bible-preaching churches, is the altar call. Let’s just say for instance, that a church has a cross hanging on the wall behind the choir loft or baptistry. When Christians come forward to the altar to pray, they are no more praying to the cross on the wall, than they are praying to the box of Kleenex that is also found at most altars. No more so, than they are praying to the pulpit, the microphone, the piano, or the Bible or hymnal that happens to be nearby. They are praying to their CREATOR. Every Christian I have ever met, recognizes this, and knows full well that the cross is a symbol, and emblem, and a reminder of what Christ did for us. That is where it begins, and that is where it ends.
Eddie really has to stretch things, to make having a symbol, and act of worship. Again, let’s go back to the wedding ring. It is a SYMBOL of a marriage. The man doesn’t become unmarried when he takes the wedding band off, but he wears it as a SYMBOL of his love and commitment to his spouse.
Let’s ask Eddie’s question….Why wear it at all? Well, why not wear it? If you worship it, then yes, that’s wrong. If you wear it as a reminder of your spouse, there is NOTHING unscriptural about that.
Same thing with someone who wears a locket around their neck, with a picture of their child, or perhaps a deceased spouse. it’s a REMINDER…not an object of worship! Good grief! What gives Eddie G the right to presume to know what is in a person’s heart, and that their being reminded of their Savior’s death, is actually the WORSHIP of the thing reminding them? This is ludicrous!
You know, Eddie, I would like to just say this. I am quite certain that a Christian who wears a cross (an empty one, and NOT a crucifix) around their neck, and is reminded of their Savior shedding His precious blood for their sins, and that what happened on that cross is the very means of their salvation, is NOT sitting there being reminded of a male or female sex organ! I mean, you really have a flair for the dramatics, but are we supposed to take that seriously?
I mean, if they were using the cross in the same way the pagans did, this is OBVIOUSLY idolatry. No disagreement there. If they view that cross as having any special power, or worthy of any special devotion, then they are guilty of idolatry. But to have one as a simple reminder of what happened on that cross, is NOT worship.
Look at how you have to distort the facts, and add all your emotional appeal, just to make it such.
And it is this argument, that usually brings out one of the MOST RIDICULOUS AND CLUELESS arguments, that JWs use to argue ANY subject. In fact, this argument would be laughable, if they weren’t dead serious when they use it. Any Christian EVER having a conversation about the cross with a JW, will be sure to hear this argument. And that argument goes something like this:
“If you had a loved one who was murdered, would you want to wear a replica of the gun used to shoot them, around your neck? If you had a loved one who was executed for a crime, would you want a replica of the electric chair hanging around your neck”?
It is hard to believe that sane people, who claim to know their Bibles, would ever use an argument such as that. Especially in light of the following Scripture….
Galatians 6:14- “But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.”
“But, but, but, that’s speaking of the cross in a symbolic way, signifying that we shouldn’t brag about our own fleshly accomplishments, but what Jesus did for us!!!!”, you might protest.
Yeah, no kidding. But why even use such a DESPICABLE word as “cross” OR “stake”, to illustrate that point? Why not just say that he “gloried in what Christ did for Him by His death”? Simple…Because for Paul, the cross was a SYMBOL (not an object of worship), of his redemption from sin.
Just as it is to a Christian.
But let’s analyze this argument, as it is THE most common one that JWs try and use, to appeal to a person’s emotions, and make them feel just terrible about remembering their Savior’s death when they see a cross. The IMPLICATION is, we are disrespecting Jehovah God if we are reminded of His Son’s death, by carrying around the method of His execution, and this is compared to the murder of a loved one and carrying around the thing that killed them.
This is one of the all-time sorriest, and most clueless answers to anything, that I have ever heard, on ANY subject. A JW using this argument, is merely proving their lack of understanding of the PURPOSE of Christ’s death. So, let’s answer this objection….
Would I want to carry around a replica of the gun that murdered my son? Obviously NOT! My son’s murder would serve no valid purpose. It would be a senseless tragedy, committed by a person who stole something from me, that could never be replaced. There would be no reason to celebrate it.
But the death of Jesus Christ is VASTLY different than this scenario. Jesus’ death in this manner was prophesied before it happened, and Jehovah God did not receive a phone call late one night, saying “I hate to tell you this, but your Son was murdered on a cross tonight”. It didn’t take Jehovah by surprise. In fact, it was HIS plan! The death of Jesus on the cross was not a senseless and tragic act, with no redemptive qualities. It was the ONLY thing that COULD redeem us. It was an act of love, and was His purpose in coming to this world in human flesh, from the very time He was born.
John 18:37- “Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
1 Timothy 1:15- “This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.”
This is more than comparing apples and oranges. JWs, when they use this argument, are making a comparison that has no relation between the two.
Now, it must be noted that, some people who have lost a loved one through murder, disease, or some other means, DO find comfort in simple reminders of that person’s life. Maybe a photograph, an article of clothing owned by the deceased, a possession of theirs, or maybe even going to a place that they enjoyed going to with the loved one. Is this worship? Absolutely not! And Christians who see a cross, and are immediately reminded of their Savior’s death, and their hearts become full of gratitude and love for their Creator, are NOT “worshipping” that cross.
And Eddie, I am especially worried about you, because of this verse….
1 Corinthians 1:18- “For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.”
Eddie, you called the cross, a “lie”. Yet, it is what we are supposed to preach. Not worship of the instrument itself, but of the One Who died on it. And yes, even the MANNER of his death, because it shows His complete emptying of Himself, and His humbling of Himself to even die a criminal’s death, for the sake of our redemption. That is very important to those of us who have been saved by faith in His shed blood.
A few more verses that show the cross is referenced as a SYMBOL of our faith in Christ….
Galatians 5:11- “And I, brethren, if I yet preach circumcision, why do I yet suffer persecution? then is the offence of the cross ceased.”
Galatians 6:12- “As many as desire to make a fair shew in the flesh, they constrain you to be circumcised; only lest they should suffer persecution for the cross of Christ.”
Ephesians 2:16- “And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:”
Colossians 1:20- “(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:”
Colossians 2:14- “Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;”
I think its quite obvious in reading the Scriptures, that Paul did not view the cross of Christ as something detestable, but rather, the means of his redemption and his freedom from sin, and a symbol of the message which he preached. According to Eddie, that would mean that Paul WORSHIPPED it, I guess.
And Eddie, please read this one very carefully…
Philippians 3:18- “(For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, [that they are] the enemies of the cross of Christ:”
Eddie, in reading your comments about the cross, I get the distinct impression that you are an enemy of the cross. And that caused Paul to weep. Obviously he didn’t view it in the way that you do.
EDDIE G: “(If you're married) do you love your wife too? If so...
Can you and will YOU take an image of your "EX-" in front of your beloved wife, then kneel down to it, bow down to it,pray to it, kiss it, carry it around, venerate it, hang it around your neck while at the same time telling your ONLY beloved wife that you're NOT doing ACTS of WORSHIP to it?
Really Mr. Holland, will you do such detestable things in front of your beloved ones? “
REPLY: Eddie, I don’t even do all of that to a picture of my OWN wife, let alone an ex. You really have a flair for the dramatics, don’t you?
Yes, I love my wife. Of course, if you ask Rando, then I beat her. But yes, I love her. What exactly, does that have to do with this topic?
Eddie, you seem to love straw-man arguments, which is a very common debate fallacy. You guys seem to employ a lot of those fallacies….Straw-man, ad-hominem, and in the case of trying to deny Jesus’ death on a cross due to the fact of the cross being used in pagan worship, a RED HERRING.
How about just dealing with FACTS that actually pertain to the issue under discussion????
EDDIE G: “If you're not married, how would you feel if someone does that to his wife? Will she be grateful? How about our loving God?
What say you Mr. Holland? Are you brave enough to answer these very basic questions? Please tell the truth.”
REPLY: Yes Eddie, I’m brave enough. And you don’t have to worry about ME telling the truth. A few of YOUR brethren on here…Yes. Me? No.
First of all, its an illogical question. I am married, and still do not think someone else should kiss a picture of their ex, in front of their wife, or even behind her back for that matter.
But here’s the problem….The cross is not God’s “ex”. Again, a Christian should NOT do the things you described in your exaggerations above. But to compare the cross to an “ex”, is ridiculous. The cross is the means by which Jesus died. Not a senseless, tragic death, but one that was ordained BY GOD, for our REDEMPTION.
How is it that you don’t see the difference?
Isaiah 53:4-6- “Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.
But he [was] wounded for our transgressions, [he was] bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace [was] upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
And that’s not all, Eddie….
Isaiah 53:8-11- “He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither [was any] deceit in his mouth.
Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put [him] to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see [his] seed, he shall prolong [his] days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, [and] shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
Eddie, I believe this makes it quite obvious that the death of Christ on the cross, was part of the Master Plan of God, for our redemption. And I believe that renders your analogy, as completely ludicrous.
You know, Eddie, your analogy about a man kissing a picture of his ex, DID bring a question to my mind, and I would like to get your thoughts.
SCENARIO: A man is going out of the country for 2 weeks, and will be away from his wife. He takes with him, a photograph of her, or maybe a personal belonging of hers. While he is away, he misses her terribly. He takes his photo/belonging out of his suitcase, and looks at it. He immediately begins to think of her. If it’s a picture of her, maybe he even KISSES it. He looks at the picture, and says “I love you, and I miss you so much”. Now, this is NOT his wife…its her IMAGE. it’s a SYMBOL. Does his kissing the photograph, mean that he is WORSHIPPING it, or that he is even WORSHIPPING HER? Or, could it be that he simply finds comfort in the reminder of her, because she is not PHYSICALLY PRESENT with him?
What say you, Eddie? Maybe you would like to tell him how detestable he is to her and God, and perhaps you could send him a Watchtower article, about how he is an idolater? After all, isn't he "slapping her in the face" by kissing a reminder of her? And isn't he actually worshipping the picture?
Eddie, you should feel embarrassed for falling for that line of thinking yourself, and insulting the intelligence of your reading audience.
EDDIE G: “Your reputation is on the line……Since your latest accusations of me puts your own reputation into question, it's best that you directly address my questions above, rather than going off-topic and talk in nonsense. It will be very obvious if your lying or obfuscating.”
REPLY: Okay Eddie, don’t start that stuff with me. My reputation is not on the line. You should know by now, that I am not the guy that you will succeed in turning everything around back on me, just to get the attention off of yourself. If you really want to know the truth, YOUR reputation is on the line as a JW, with how you view and react to a liar among your own brethren. You reply was, basically….”I don’t want to get involved. That’s between you two.” The reason you WERE involved, is because you made your ridiculous comments about how you people are morally superior to everyone else, and how your religion removes liars from the congregation. If you hadn’t spouted that nonsense, I wouldn’t have called you out over Rando. The fact is, he is a documented and proven liar, and you support him. End of story. That's not even a debatable point. My reputation isn’t on the line…yours is. My beliefs have not wavered on this site in 13 years, and I normally have solid Scriptural support for those beliefs.
So, just don’t go there. Your people have done everything possible to tarnish my reputation, and have failed time and time again. I’m not the least bit worried about your comment, regarding my reputation.
Actually, I believe I have answered your falsehoods quite thoroughly, as I have about 5 hours in this writing. As I said, I will be taking a long Labor Day week-end (going camping with the wife, and I will NOT be bringing along any photos of the ex), but when I return, I will address the actual METHOD of Christ’s execution. Suffice it to say for now, the evidence is against you and the Watchtower, which you so zealously defend.
What I would expect from you now, is an admission that your should not have stated that Christians WORSHIP crosses. You were flat out wrong on that one.
Have a great day, Eddie, and take care.