Jehovah`s Witness/Pot calling the kettle black
QUESTION: Hello Mr.G, I skimmed over your organ transplant answer because to me, it's a boring issue that's been talked to death on this forum. We get it...... Personal choice. Enough said. My question is much less complex. Question 1. Why do Jw's give such long winded answers with analogies and examples? You kinda talk to people like they are elementary school age children. I am sure Dave understood what "personal choice" meant. Your " plane crash" example was a little confusing. Basically, you said to condemn or judge someone based on their own personal decision would be wrong and no one has the right to this. I could not agree more! this brings me to question 2. Don't Jw's do exactly what you say is wrong all the time? Assuming that another person is morally not your equal (ie worldly ie bad association) simply because they are not a Jw is really condemning and judging them based on a religious choice. Where's their right to choose? What gives you the right to judge them anymore than someone judging another for a organ transplant choice? Also, how do you consider shunning not a form of judgement and condemnation? It certainly does not show respect. I just did not understand how you agree that judging and condemning someone for a personal choice is wrong , when you actually engage in that behavior yourself. I clearly see a bit oy hypocrisy.
ANSWER: Ok Mark let's make this short as possible as you wish.
On Q1. Plane crash illustration shows you that it's a personal decision, no one else is. No one should condemn them for whatever decision they made.
On Q2a. “. . .“Into whatever city or village YOU enter, search out who in it is deserving, and stay there until YOU leave. 12 When YOU are entering into the house, greet the household; 13 and if the house is deserving, let the peace YOU wish it come upon it; but if it is not deserving, let the peace from YOU return upon YOU. 14 Wherever anyone does not take YOU in or listen to YOUR words, on going out of that house or that city shake the dust off YOUR feet.” (Matthew 10:11-14)
On Q2b. “. . . In my letter I wrote YOU to quit mixing in company with fornicators, 10 not [meaning] entirely with the fornicators of this world or the greedy persons and extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, YOU would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves.”” (1 Corinthians 5:9-13)
There you go Mark. Hope this helps.
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QUESTION: Thanks for keeping it semi short. I understood your analogy of the place crash. That was not what I was trying to convey to you. I think you know that, so I want explain again. I agree with the provided scriptures. I think the problem is you are confusing their meaning with being given the right to judge others simply because of a religious choice. No where in these scriptures does it say that determining good from evil is based merely on choice of a man made/man run religion. C,mon you surely did not interpret those scriptures that way did you? Nowhere in the Bible does God grant permission for one to judge and condemn anybody. If these scriptures is what you use to give yourself permission to do so, you are just wrong. Anybody can throw up a scripture to support wrongdoing if it is misinterpreted. Geez, I thought you would have a better answer. I guess there really is no answer to support hypocrisy. Thanks anyhow.
ANSWER: Thanks for the follow up Mark.
I was afraid this, that without any explanation or clarification of the scriptures you will MISSED the point. And missed the point you did. So to avoid the confusion or misinterpretation / misapplication of the scriptures, allow me please to make a short (I hope) explanation of the cited verses.
The main point of Matthew 10:11 is to "search out who ...is deserving".
We don't go preaching from house to house or door to door with the intention of judging people Mark. No, we go door to door, we go wherever people are to look for the "deserving ones"
. And if they don't want to listen then that's their choice. In short were looking for the "diamond in the rough"! Are a "diamond Mark"? I sure hope so.
But why do we keep knocking on people's doors Mark even though the majority we meet are not interested and even hostile to our message? We go because circumstances change. In fact we have many brothers and sisters who were former oppossers and persecutors. But through the perseverance of our loving brotherhood these former men and women are now our beloved brothers and sisters. Now if we've judged these people as such, then there's no way for them to become one of us - a Jehovah's Witness!
I hope this is clear enough for you.
If one of your family members KEEPS doing bad things and KEEPS sullying your family name and reputation, as a father what would you do Mark? Will just ignore him/her or lovingly discipline him? If so how?
For true Christians, the command is clear:
IF UNREPENTANT “Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves. (1 Corinthians 5:13)
"...quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man..." (1 Corinthians 5:11)
In fact many of our former brothers and sisters who were disfellowshipped but came back said that the discipline they received (as instructed by Paul) proved to be a wake up call for them. Now they are zealous preachers and servants of God.
BTW - do you what people will say if let "bad things" continue to happen in the congregation? We will be called hypocrites.
Yet here we are removing those who CONTINUE to do bad things and are UNREPENTANT, we still get labeled hypocrites.
In any case - the preaching work will continue UNTIL Jesus our Master says the work is done. Once DONE, once accomplish, Jesus our Lord will finally JUDGE those who are "goats" and those are "sheep". (Matt 25:32). I hope before that happens Mark, you're one of his sheep.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi again Ed, I understood the scriptures you provided. I think you may be missing my point. I may not be making myself clear. I understand the idea of not associating and hanging out with folks who are simply pure evil. Murders, rapists, pedophiles, thieves, etc. That makes sense. I think the issue I am having (and correct me if I am wrong) is that Jw's believe if you are not a Jw then you must be as evil and bad as a murderer, rapist, pedophile, etc. You seem to be lumping everyone who is not a member of your organization into one basket, so to speak. How can that be? Surely you do not think less of someone because they may have a different perspective? I can even understand the removal of someone from your organization as acceptable, but to order others (even family members) to do the same is wrong. Asking someone to not return to the Kingdom Hall is one thing, destroying a family is quite another. Where is their "personal choice" Ed? To answer your question regarding my children and how I would discipline them if they did something wrong. Yes, I would be angry, upset, and greatly disappointed. Would I turn my back on them? I would not. Would I shun them? I would not. Would I still love them unconditionally? Yes I would. But, you know what Ed, most of all ,I would forgive them. We are ALL Gods children. You are not superior to me, nor I to you. Hey, if you don't want to hang out with the town drunk, I get it, but don't pass judgement Ed. Its wrong. Its not what God wants or expects from us. He'll take care of it. I know you are a great guy Ed, we just see Gods words and messages a little differently . Take Care Buddy.
Since you don't want long answers, I'll make it short as I can.
Because - we love:
1. Jehovah our God - our loyalty is to Him alone (Matt 22:37).
2. Jesus our lord - we owe our salvation to him and to his Father for giving his son (John 3:16).
3. Our fellowman - we continue to teach and preach to all. (Matt 22:39, 24:14, 28:10,20)
4. Ourselves - we follow what 1)Jehovah and 2)Jesus commanded us to do. Matt 22: 39,40)
Thus we're no part of the "world" (that is alienated from God) " just as Jesus is no part of the world.(John 17:16)
In other words, it has nothing to do with what you said.