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Jehovah`s Witness/How Christ died - Not a BIG DEAL Mr. Holland?

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Question
So Mr. Holland you said in your latest post:

"What's the big deal HOW He died, as long as we understand that He DID die?"

"who DOES care HOW Jesus died….it’s the JW position that makes such an issue of it"

Really?

Answer
Mr. Holland, not sure why, maybe you missed it, then again maybe not. In any case I was hoping for an answer from you about the questions in my last post. But after reading through your latest post there wasn't much there - except more attacks.

Oh well, I guess I'll just have to answer them for you in order to show the nonsense and the danger of this  statement - 'the way Jesus died doesn't matter'. But before I do that, I need to respond first to what you said below so as not get accused of ignoring it.

you said in part:

And we all know who is “desperate”, and who DOES care HOW Jesus died….it’s the JW position that makes such an issue of it.  Even Mr. Hepburn acknowledges that it doesn’t matter HOW, just that it happened.  I agree with him on that point.   Eddie, however, is obsessed with his hatred for the cross.

So, there is no desperation or need on my part to prove anything…I am happy either way.  If it was a stake and my sins are still forgiven, then praise be to God!  But it just so happens, that it was on a cross, and Eddie is giving out misleading information.  That just shouldn’t happen.

No Mr. Holland it's not “desperation” or "obsession" that you're witnessing, but rather a toleration of "no rivalry toward Jehovah”(2 Kings 10:16)! That's what your seeing. It's my complete devotion to my God and Father Jehovah that is moving me to uphold his name and his sovereignty. That's what you're seeing. And it's something proponents of the CROSS like you can NEVER understand nor will do.

It's just like what Jesus Christ my master said to the arc-enemy of the truth Satan:


“It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’” (Luke 4:8)

Thus to uphold the truth, it must be told to all who will listen, for God said ...

“. . .This people honors me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach commands of men as doctrines.’”” (Matthew 15:8, 9)

And sadly you Mr. Holland, as the supporter and promoter of the CROSS, you're leading people to believe the lie that is the CROSS!


But you say:

"What's the big deal HOW He died, as long as we understand that He DID die?"

"who DOES care HOW Jesus died….it’s the JW position that makes such an issue of it"


That is sad Mr. Holland if not BLIND faith. And to think that you were once a Pastor in your church, teaching people that "IT IS NOT A BIG DEAL how Jesus died"? Yes of course, his death is what freed us from sin and death, and one the MOST IMPORTANT teachings a person must learn. No doubt about it! But since a lie was introduced in his NAME - thus it is a BIG DEAL. It matters a lot!

And to all of those who say that it is not, I hope YOU rethink your position very seriously and carefully because if it IS - you will end up supporting a lie, whether you like it or not.

I really hope and pray that you or for that matter those of the same mindset like you Mr. Holland will consider carefully what you're saying because this is a very serious matter if not a dangerous one!

If you don't believe me then please consider the consequences of such statement.

That is:

If it's proven that Jesus didn't die on a CROSS, IT would mean that what you've come to believe all along, is a lie. Thus the very foundation of your faith (as I said from the very start of this expose') will be shaken to its very core.

As it is, the evidence already presented are undeniable. The CROSS IS of Pagan origin and  used in pagan worship in one form or another!


In addition, if it's proven that Jesus didn't die on a traditional CROSS, it would mean that MAJORITY of  Bibles out there contained a lie.


It would mean that the KJV Bible that you highly treasure has in its pages the lie (since 1611).

It would also mean that God's Word was changed and tampered with for a long long time.

Which would mean that whoever did it and promoted it and keep promoting it is guilty of the lie and thereby merit Jesus Christ's warning:

That is:

“. . . to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone makes an addition to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll; 19 and if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy, God will take his portion away from the trees of life and out of the holy city, things which are written about in this scroll.” (Revelation 22:18, 19)

On these alone if you're not convinced of the seriousness of such matter, then you have no one to blame but yourself!

Now do you still think it's not a BIG DEAL and it doesn't matter - how Jesus died?

If so, may I suggest that you rethink your position again Mr. Holland, otherwise you will be found guilty and a willing promoter of this lie that is the CROSS.

I hope this is a BIG DEAL enough matter for you to rethink your position!

But alas and unfortunately, judging from your many posts, I'm afraid there's no point of convincing you. But for the sake of those who are still willing to listen, please consider the following.


As I said already:

If "Xylon" stands for a "tree" (torture stake - NWT), what makes you think that it is right and acceptable to translate "stauros" into the traditional "CROSS" when describing the same thing?

Like these ones from the KJV:
[Mat 27:42 KJV] 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross , and we will believe him.
[Mar 15:30 KJV] 30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross .
[Luk 9:23 KJV] 23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
[Jhn 19:25 KJV] 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

Is there ANY justification of changing the meaning of the word "stauros" into "CROSS" if its equivalent Greek word "xylon" or Hebrew word "ets" means a tree or a stake (NWT)?

Furthermore, how accurate and reliable is a translation if two words of the same meaning are translated into a totally different thing?

Can you trust such Bible?

Really? If your Bible is the KJB and is telling you in one verse that Jesus was going to be "hanged on a tree" then tells you in another that he's not not but is to be "crucified on a cross", would you say that it's a trustworthy translation?

If NO, then why on earth IT'S not a BIG DEAL?

Remember this scripture?

“. . .The person faithful in what is least is faithful also in much, and the person unrighteous in what is least is unrighteous also in much. . .” (Luke 16:10)

If the KJB or for that matter any Bible other than the NWT is not faithful in accurately translating even single word like "stauros", then what to do with the rest? Would you still put your full trust to it?

If NOT, then why IT'S NOT A BIG DEAL?

If on the other hand you say yes (like Mr. Holland is expected to do), would you drink a cup of cold sweet clear water that has a drop of poison in it?

I hope not. But any Bible that contain a lie especially a deliberate one is enough to put your very salvation into grave danger.

As the scripture say:

“YOU cannot be drinking the cup of Jehovah and the cup of demons; YOU cannot be partaking of “the table of Jehovah” and the table of demons.” (1 Corinthians 10:21)


Oh, but you say, 'the KJV translated it correctly. Our scholars said so. Our experts said so. Who are you to question them? Why the KJV was produced by thousands of people for over hundreds if not thousands of years, how dare you question their knowledge. Why you're own NWT is quite new and was produced by unknown people. You can't compare it with the KJV'.

Okay then, if you say so, why wouldn't God say in the prophecy that His son will be "crucified on a cross" rather than "hangeth on a tree" or a "stake" at Deut 21:22-23 if the cross is the same a tree in the KJV?

Why all of a sudden (in the New Testament) the writers say that Jesus was "crucified on a cross" when they knew that according to the prophecy Jesus will be "hanging on a tree" ("stake" NWT)?


Were the apostles somehow didn't know the difference between a "tree" with the "traditional Christian CROSS"?

Really? Were the writers (of the NT) so unaware of their own writing that in some instances they wrote "tree" while "CROSS" on others when describing the same thing?

If not, who's lying to whom here then?


Is this what Mr. Holland leading people to believe? That the writers of the Bible we're NOT aware of the difference between "stauros" and "xylon"?

That "xylon" stands for a "tree" while "stauros" stands for the traditional CROSS?


Furthermore, how would you explain that the prophecy about Jesus "hanging on a tree" (stake NWT) was fulfilled if IN FACT he was "crucified / nailed to a cross"?

Really? Are you this gullible to swallow hook line and sinker that a tree is a cross and a cross is a tree?

If so I have a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.


But since we Jehovah's Witnesses, especially me believe and accept 100% the fact that Jesus Christ died on a stake, thus the challenge is on the believers and defenders of the CROSS to prove their case.

And as far as its turning out, the evidence presented by Mr. Holland is crumbling.

And there's nothing he can do to stop it from collapsing!

I can go further but I think I made my point already  - it is a BIG DEAL how Jesus died!


As for this:

.C’mon, Eddie. Stop obfuscating.  You’re ignoring the point, and desperately trying to change the subject.  We weren’t talking about a Hebrew word for “cross”, nor were we talking about an unrelated passage in Deuteronomy.  Nobody said the word “cross” was used in Exodus 12, so it was a complete waste of your time to even bring that up….I said that the instructions were, to place the blood on the door in the SHAPE of the cross.  And then I asked you to explain WHY? Why not at all 4 corners of the door?  Why not the top and bottom, in the shape of a torture stake? Why not 3 times on one side, and once on the other?

Why once above the door, and then on two locations on the side?  Simple question, Eddie.  And I saw NOTHING from you, by way of a real explanation.   

AGAIN…Why did Jehovah specify this particular shape?  You DO agree that this was a foreshadowing of the death of the Lamb of God, Jesus Christ, don’t you, Eddie?   

Sure "Nobody said the word “cross” was used in Exodus 12”.

No, but you IMPLIED that it was used, Mr. Holland.


Here again is what you said:

<"This is significant, in that God specifies the exact manner in which the blood of the lamb (a foreshadowing of Jesus Christ), was to be placed on the door.  In the form of a CROSS.  Granted, the word “cross” is not used here, but the shape of it is certainly implied.  " >

"I said that the instructions were, to place the blood on the door in the SHAPE of the cross".

So if you knew that the word CROSS wasn't there, then why IMPLY that it's there?

Why say "Granted, the word “cross” is not used here, but the shape of it is certainly implied. "  ?

Only one conclusion - desperation and obsession to prove a lie!

So still think it's not a BIG DEAL and it doesn't matter how Jesus died?

Still think that the answers to my simple questions DOESN'T MATTER much?

And if you still believe that Jesus died on the traditional cross, what say to my questions to prove me wrong?


I hope you reconsider because you're burying yourself deeper and deeper into the unknown Mr. Holland and time is running out.




BTW - just to show you the accuracy and consistency of the NWT, I'll cite some scriptures for comparison.

From the KJV Bible:

The prophecy about Jesus' manner of death:

[Deu 21:22-23 KJV] 22 And if a man have committed a sin worthy of death, and he be to be put to death, and thou hang him on a tree : 23 His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged [is] accursed of God;) that thy land be not defiled, which the LORD thy God giveth thee [for] an inheritance.

The fulfillment:

"Gal 3:13 KJV - Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree (xylon) "

The inconsistency:

[Mat 27:42 KJV] 42 He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel, let him now come down from the cross , and we will believe him.
[Mar 15:30 KJV] 30 Save thyself, and come down from the cross .
[Luk 9:23 KJV] 23 And he said to [them] all, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
[Jhn 19:25 KJV] 25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the [wife] of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.


The N W T:

The prophecy:
(Deuteronomy 21:22, 23)“. . .“And in case there comes to be in a man a sin deserving the sentence of death, and he has been put to death, and you have hung him upon a stake , 23 his dead body should not stay all night on the stake; but you should by all means bury him on that day, because something accursed of God is the one hung up. . .”

The Fulfillment:
(Galatians 3:13) - “. . .Christ by purchase released us from the curse of the Law by becoming a curse instead of us, because it is written: “Accursed is every man hanged upon a stake .(xylon)””

(Matthew 27:42) - “. . .Others he saved; himself he cannot save! He is King of Israel; let him now come down off the torture stake (stauros) and we will believe on him. . .”

(Mark 15:30) - “. . .save yourself by coming down off the torture stake .””

(Luke 9:23) - “. . .Then he went on to say to all: “If anyone wants to come after me, let him disown himself and pick up his torture stake day after day and follow me continually. . .”

(John 19:25)  - “. . .By the torture stake of Jesus , however, there were standing his mother and the sister of his mother; Mary the wife of Clo′pas, and Mary Mag′da·lene. . .”


BTW - the "torture stake" that we are to carry is Jesus' "sacrifice and suffering". If we are to follow his footsteps we will accept ALL the suffering that will come to us because of his name and for what he stands for.


next time - item #5 and who are the MAJORITY of Christians who use the cross as PART of their worship to God and who are the Christians who worship the CROSS.  

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