Jehovah`s Witness/A different meaning???

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Hello Brenton

Hope you're fine as always and your family as well. And also thank you for the last response.. that was quite satisfying. Well, anyway, I was planning to ask you this question through YAHOO once again but I guess this is an interesting one and perhaps many(inluding me) who thinks this way also. So I need your views as JW on this too(I'll quote):


"The Hebrew word for "Angel" is "Mlakim". It means "Messenger" or "Representative". It does not always mean a winged being in heaven. We always have to read the context of the passage to determine how to interpret the word Mlakim.

For example, in Genesis 32:3, it says that Jacob sent Mlakim before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, the country of Edom.

Did Jacob send out winged beings from heaven? This IS the same word that the OT uses to refer to Angels. But no, the context would show that he merely sent messengers ahead of him to meet with Esau.

So is Jesus being called the Angel of YHWH mean that He is a winged being in heaven? Absolutely not. Jesus was a messenger for the Father, this is true. But Jesus being called the Mlakim of YHWH in no way refers to His nature as being angelic. In just the same way Revelation talks about sending the book of Revelation out to the seven angels. This was used to represent the leaders in each of the 7 churches. Men. They were to be messengers or Angels of Jesus.

Genesis 16 is fascinating as it relates to this. It refers to the account where Hagar fled Sarah and the Angel of the LORD appeared to her. Vs 9,10 says: "The angel of the Lord said to her, “Return to your mistress, and submit to her authority.” 10 Then he added, “I will give you more descendants than you can count.”"

If the Angel of the LORD is just an ordinary angel, then why doesn't he say, "HE will give you more descendants"? He doesn't say God will giver her more descendants. He says, 'I will do it'.

Vs 13 really drives the point home. It says, " Thereafter, Hagar used another name to refer to the Lord, who had spoken to her. She said, “You are the God who sees me.” She also said, “Have I truly seen the One who sees me?”

The Vs 13 CLEARLY says that it was YHWH who actually spoke to Hagar. But vs 9,10 says it was the Angel of the LORD that spoke to her. So the author of Genesis clearly shows that the Angel of the LORD is the LORD Himself. Hagar even says that she has SEEN the God who sees her. I want to look at another passage in Exodous, but I'll put it in the comments since this post is already long."

END QUOTE



>>I want your thought on this sir


THANK YOU★

Answer
Hi Dave,

Thank you for your question and I hope you are well.  Sorry for the delay. This is the third attempt at writing this. Power failures shut down my computer twice before I could save the file.

I agree with some of what was said above.  The word of angel in both the Hebrew and Greek text means messenger  as Strongs Hebrew lexicon shows  “04397.   malak ; from an unused root meaning to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher):  —   ambassador, angel, king, messenger.”

In the New American Standard Bible the Hebrew word “malak” is rendered in the following ways “ambassadors (2), angel (101), angels (9), envoys (1), messenger (24), messengers (76).

In the KJV it is used in the following ways  angel (111), messenger (98), ambassadors (4)

The Greek word is aggelos   Strongs Greek Liecicon says “32  from αγγελλω aggello  (to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an "angel"; by implication, a pastor:  —   angel, messenger.

The NAS uses it angel (86), angel’s (2), angelic (1), angels (80), messenger (4), messengers (3).

The KJV uses it angel 179, messenger 7

So yes the context does depend on if  the word “angel” means an earthly representative or a heavenly representative.

In light of that I fully agree with this

quote
"The Hebrew word for "Angel" is "Mlakim". It means "Messenger" or "Representative". It does not always mean a winged being in heaven. We always have to read the context of the passage to determine how to interpret the word Mlakim.  

For example, in Genesis 32:3, it says that Jacob sent Mlakim before him to Esau his brother in the land of Seir, the country of Edom.  

Did Jacob send out winged beings from heaven? This IS the same word that the OT uses to refer to Angels. But no, the context would show that he merely sent messengers ahead of him to meet with Esau.   

end quote

Now  in this next paragraph I understand the writer to be trying to make the point the Jesus does not look like what we “normally” think a heavenly angel may look like.  In away a agree with with the writer.  However I would also say that us humans really have no idea as to what the personalties in the heavenly realm look like.

quote
So is Jesus being called the Angel of YHWH mean that He is a winged being in heaven? Absolutely not. Jesus was a messenger for the Father, this is true. But Jesus being called the Mlakim of YHWH in no way refers to His nature as being angelic.  
end quote

Whether Jesus is a “winged creature” or not is not stated in the Bible.  All in the heavenly realm share the same nature. They are all “spirit creatures”. Since spirit  are beyond the power of humans to see, any description of their appearance in human terms can only approximation of their appearance.  We have  various visions of the almighty and they all vary in details as to his appearance (see the following Eze 1:26-28; Da 7:9; Re 4:1-3 . )  There are other  other metaphoric references to God .For example in  Ps 84:11 he is also refered to as as a “sun,” and  “shield,”

But what  about “angels”?  There are four distinct descriptions of  different “classes” of winged creatures in the Bible that I have found.

When Moses was instructed to build the “Tent of Meeting” (Tabernacle) in the wilderness he was also instructed on the construction of the Ark of The Covenant”  The instructions on how to do this was given to him by God (Exodus 25:9 According to all that I am showing you as the pattern of the tabernacle and pattern of all its furnishings, that is the way YOU are to make it.”)  

Part of the instructions were for Cherubs to adorn the tent and to be placed on the “Ark”  The description of these Cherubs shows they had only two wings  (Exodus 25:18-21 ”18 And you must make two cherubs of gold. Of hammered work you are to make them on both ends of the cover. 19  And make one cherub on this end and one cherub on that end. On the cover YOU are to make the cherubs at its two ends. 20  And the cherubs must be spreading out their two wings upward, screening over the cover with their wings, with their faces one toward the other. Toward the cover the faces of the cherubs should be. 21  And you must place the cover above upon the Ark, and in the Ark you will place the testimony that I shall give you.  “)

Another group of “spirit creatures” are called Seraphs .  These are described as having 6 wings (Isaiah 6:2 ”Seraphs were standing above him. Each one had six wings . With two he kept his face covered, and with two he kept his feet covered, and with two he would fly about.”)

The third group  are spoken of as “four living creatures”.  These are recorded by Ezekiel in a vision he had

(Ezekiel 1:5-11 ” 5 And out of the midst of it there was the likeness of four living creatures , and this was how they looked: they had the likeness of earthling man . 6  And [each] one had four faces , and [each] one of them four wings . 7  And their feet were straight feet, and the sole of their feet was like the sole of the foot of a calf; and they were gleaming as with the glow of burnished copper. 8  And there were the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides, and the four of them had their faces and their wings. 9  Their wings were joining one to the other. They would not turn when they went; they would go each one straight forward. 10  And as for the likeness of their faces, the four of them had a man’s face with a lion’s face to the right, and the four of them had a bull’s face on the left; the four of them also had an eagle’s face . 11  That is the way their faces were. And their wings were spreading out upward. Each one had two joining to each other, and two were covering their bodies.”)

In  the book of revelation there is another group of four living creatures that are very similar to what Ezekiel saw, but not quite.

(Revelation 4:6-8 “And before the throne there is, as it were, a glassy sea like crystal. And in the midst of the throne and around the throne [there are] four living creatures that are full of eyes in front and behind . 7  And the first living creature is like a lion , and the second living creature is like a young bull , and the third living creature has a face like a man’s , and the fourth living creature is like a flying eagle . 8  And as for the four living creatures, each one of them respectively has six wings ; round about and underneath they are full of eyes.”)

It is more than likely that what is described in the Bible is not the actually look , or appearance, of these “spirit creatures” but are figurative ways of describing them in terms we understand.   God is spoken of as being  as a “sun,” “shield,” or “Rock.” (Ps 84:11; De 32:4,  31 ) These describe a quality not his look. The description of these “living creatures” reminds one of four of God main qualities

A lion is used in the Bible as a symbol of courage, especially in the pursuit of justice and righteousness. (2  Samuel 17:10; Proverbs 28:1 ) Thus, the lion well represents the godly quality of courageous justice. (Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 89:14 ) The second living creature resembles a young bull. What quality does a bull bring to your mind? To the Israelites the bull was a valuable possession because of its power. (Proverbs 14:4; see also Job 39:9-11 .) The young bull, then, represents power, dynamic energy as supplied by Jehovah.— Psalm 62:11; Isaiah 40:26.

The third living creature has a face like a man’s. This must represent godlike love, since on earth man alone was created in God’s image, with the superlative quality of love. (Genesis 1:26-28; Matthew 22:36-40; 1  John 4:8,  16 ) Undoubtedly, the cherubs display this quality as they serve around Jehovah’s throne.

The fourth  one is like a flying eagle in appearance. This reminds me of what Jehovah himself says about  the eagle’s great vision: “Far into the distance its eyes keep looking.” (Job 39:29 ) Hence, the eagle well symbolises far-sighted wisdom. Jehovah is the Source of wisdom.

So are these descriptions, what these “creatures actually” look like, or are they  pictorial of different qualities, put into human terms?  The answer.  We just do not know 100% for sure, but for me the evidence indicates that to be the case.

OK what about Genesis 16:13 . The writer says ”The Vs 13 CLEARLY says that it was YHWH who actually spoke to Hagar. .... So the author of Genesis clearly shows that the Angel of the LORD is the LORD Himself. Hagar even says that she has SEEN the God who sees her

Did Hagar actually say  as a matter of fact “ that she has SEEN the God who sees her”?  Note the wording from the following Bibles

“for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me?(JKV)
“for she said, "Have I also here seen Him who sees me?"” (NJKV)
“..for she said: “Have I here actually looked upon him who sees me?” (NWT)

Hagar did not make a statement of fact as suggested by the writer. She asked a question.  We must also keep in mind the following “it was impossible for God to lie,” (Hebrews 6:18 , JKV).  Remember what God told Moses ”Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.” (Exodus 33:20 . JKV), an d then we have the words of John “No man hath seen God at any time;” (John 1:18 , JKV)

So the angel  (Mlakim) that was sent from the LORD (Jehovah) was an  ambassador or messenger sent by  Jehovah.  As Gods representative the “angel” used the words of God  

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Brenton Hepburn

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I AM one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I am always learning. I am NOT an expert in the full sense of the word but I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT - the so called mind control problems-so called prophecies - how being a JW affects the individual and relatives and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. >>WARNING<< Please be aware that there are people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs. By all means ask these ones questions. Depending on the question you will get an honest answer, but, generally the answer you get, will mislead you as to what we believe, often because, they do not give ALL the relevant details. These ones will, have an agenda against JWs., and will at times give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask one of the NON JWs a question, that is fine, BUT if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: There(have been)and are, some "experts" here who are NOT always the most courteous and polite, at times are actually quite rude, that applies to both JW's and non JW's and their answers may offend, especially when they get personal and attack the character of the person and not the message. Unfortunately some here that have done that. So it IS IMPORTANT to chose an "expert" that YOU feel will best suit YOU by reading some of their past answers . . . . .

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I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.

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I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek. Was a public tax accountant for many years untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up due to health problems.

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