Jehovah`s Witness/Follow up

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Question
You know Eddie, I noticed that you never answer all my questions. You only seem to answer the ones that you want. When I respond to you, I try to answer your questions, even while asking my own, but you...not so much. And I noticed that when I said I wouldn't resend my questions on the Jesus isn't God issue (which I think i asked 2 or 3 times), you didn't even comment. Are you relieved you don't have to answer those? Anyway, I'll try to surround the questions I'd REALLY like you to answer with "***".


"the fact that Franz refused to do so, saying "No, I won't attempt to do that," doesn't mean that he couldn't do it."

No, but it immediately puts his credibility in question.

"After all, his knowledge of Hebrew or Greek was not in the slightest relevant to the subject of the court case at hand, which was whether Jehovah's Witnesses have the right to ordain ministers of religion."

Not directly, but if his religion is based upon his translation of the Bible, and his ability to translate is in question, it's indirectly relevant.

"if you have a sentence in language A and you translate it into language B and then someone else translates it back into language A again, you won't necessarily end up with the sentence you started with."

He wasn't asked to translate verbatim, just to translate. Further, no one indicated that his translation should be identical to what it said in Hebrew. We know that "Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country" written in one language won't necessarily translate verbatim Hebrew to English, nor would we expect it to say the same thing translated English to Hebrew. The point is that he wouldn't/couldn't translate it AT ALL. I agree with the argument only as far as to say that when he said "No, I won't attempt to do that", I would've followed up and asked him why won't he?

"Is translating from English into Hebrew the same as translating from Hebrew into English?"

No it's not, but as I found, Franz was SELF-TAUGHT in Hebrew. It takes us back to the brain surgery analogy you brought up:
***If you were going to have brain surgery, how much trust and faith would you put in a Surgeon who was self-taught?***

"Generally speaking, one translates from another language into one's own native language. This is because one is usually intimately familiar with one's own language, while even years of study and experience do not necessarily enable one to be completely at home with an acquired language."

That's fine. So then:
***why didn't Franz seek out someone fluent in English, as well as Hebrew and Greek?***
***If your church is so adamant that scholars over 1900 years translated the Bible wrong, and this is an important question, WHY would they, and by extension, YOU trust it's translation to laymen with the most basic of translation skills?***

" Many people work as competent translators without being able speak or write the source language well."

Name FIVE, as well as the subject matter they translated, which should at least approach the importance of GOD'S WORD.

"He had just told the court: 'I do not speak Hebrew.'"

I agree. I caught that immediately. The previous day, the question was " I think you are able to read and follow the Bible in Hebrew ....", not speak it.

"In any case, as Stafford - who does know Hebrew - points out in his book, the verse in question (Genesis 2:4) isn't all that easy to translate. He says: "It should not be overlooked that this verse is actually somewhat complicated. It has no finite verb but one Niphal infinitive construct, with suffix, and one Qal infinitive construct"[6] Even Hommel's own star witness, Millard, recognises that there is 'uncertainty over the passage.'!"

All the more reason for a layman to seek out a professional scholar, even if it's only to confirm Franz was getting it right.

"In fact, all Bible translators, not just the NWT translators, make generous use of lexicons, grammars, commentaries and other translation aids. Few, if any, of them approach their work so casually as to attempt to translate without recourse to all the printed scholarship that is available. It is simply not expected of a translator that he or she should be able to work without all these aids."

Back to the brain surgery analogy! If I want to be a brain surgeon, I can study all the books on the subject in the world, but unless I couple that with professional instruction, no one would hire to me to lance a boil!

"Furthermore, translation is a synergistic group effort, in which a number of different translators contribute their expertise and talents"

My point. Your translators had virtually NO expertise on Hebrew and Greek.

"Additionally, there is no reason why the New World Translation Committee could not have sought the input and comments of a number of authorities on Bible languages, both inside and outside the Jehovah's Witnesses organization."

There's no record I could find of them doing that.

"So, leaving aside for a moment the unresolved question of whether Franz was even on the NWT translation committee..."

From my research:

"The translation committee was headed by (then vice-president of the Jehovah's Witnesses), Frederick W.Franz. Other members included Nathan H. Knorr (then president of the Jehovah's Witnesses), Albert D. Schroeder, Ceorge D. Gangas and Milton Henschel. The information as to the identity of the translation committee was made known by former Jehovah's Witness William Cetnar. (See further, We Left lehovah's Witnesses, A Non-Profit Organization; Edmond C. Gruss.) Cetnar was able to supply this information as he worked at the International Headquarters of Jehovah's Witnesses during the time the translation was being prepared"

"...write to one or two of them and suggesting that they correct the error?"

The trial transcripts don't indicate any mistake was made needing to correct, or any attempt to smear Franz. It was a transcript. As for the comment stating Franz admitted the previous day he could speak Hebrew, I caught that and already said I agree with the complaint.

Okay, another important question:

***As I said before, the authors of the NT books weren't seeking glory, and they allowed their names to be known. And in those days, they could face DEATH for what they wrote. So why are your "scholars" different?***

Answer
Hi Ron,

Since you asked, I'll just address your questions directly:

***If you were going to have brain surgery, how much trust and faith would you put in a Surgeon who was self-taught?***

This question is a non-starter. Just because one is self taught thus one is disqualified in your book?

If so then would you also say that these geniuses are disqualified from their practices since they were self-taught?

Michael Faraday - no scientific experience or education.
Gregor Mendel

Nonesense!


More here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-taught
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autodidacticism

Next:
***why didn't Franz seek out someone fluent in English, as well as Hebrew and Greek?***

***If your church is so adamant that scholars over 1900 years translated the Bible wrong, and this is an important question, WHY would they, and by extension, YOU trust it's translation to laymen with the most basic of translation skills?***

The simple answer to your questions is to look at the finished product - the NWT. Compare it with what's out there and we can easily see their competence!

There's no other translation out there that can come close to the NWT!


***As I said before, the authors of the NT books weren't seeking glory, and they allowed their names to be known. And in those days, they could face DEATH for what they wrote. So why are your "scholars" different?***

Ron, do you know that when the Bible was being written, there was only ONE author?

And when it was finished, there was still ONE author?

Now which one has the rightful claim as to the authorship of the Bible?

Men or God?

If you say God - then why are you so focus and obsessed on the writers and translators?


In any case here's what the NWT writing committee said:

Foreword

IT IS a very responsible thing to translate the Holy Scriptures from their original languages of Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek into modern speech. Translating the Holy Scriptures means rendering into another language the thoughts and sayings of Jehovah God, the heavenly Author of this sacred library of sixty-six books that holy men of long ago were inspired to write down for our benefit today.

That is a very sobering thought. The translators of this work, who fear and love the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures, feel toward Him a special responsibility to transmit his thoughts and declarations as accurately as possible. They also feel a responsibility toward the searching readers who depend upon a translation of the inspired Word of the Most High God for their everlasting salvation.

It was with such a sense of solemn responsibility that over the course of many years this committee of dedicated men have produced the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures. The entire work was originally released in six volumes, from 1950 to 1960. From the start it was the desire of the translators to have all these volumes brought together into one book, inasmuch as the Holy Scriptures are in actuality one book by the One Author. While the original volumes contained marginal references and footnotes, the revised one-volume edition, released in 1961, contained neither footnotes nor marginal references. A second revision was released in 1970 and a third revision with footnotes followed in 1971. In 1969 the committee released The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures, which presented under the Greek text revised by Westcott and Hort (1948 Reprint) a literal word-for-word translation into English. During the past 34 years the New World Translation has been translated in part or in its entirety into ten other languages, with a total printing and distribution surpassing 39 million.

This new edition is not just a refinement of the translated text beyond its already previous revisions, but it offers a complete updating and revision of the footnote apparatus and marginal (cross) references that were initially presented in English, from 1950 to 1960.

For information as to the features of this revised edition and the service it can render to the users, we refer you to the Introduction. This 1984 revision has been released by us to the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Pennsylvania for printing, translation into other leading languages and distribution. We thus make it available with a deep sense of gratitude to the Divine Author of the Holy Scriptures, who has so privileged us and in whose spirit we have trusted in producing this revision. We pray for his blessing upon those who use this translation for spiritual advancement.
January 1, 1984, New York, N.Y...."




Introduction

THE Holy Bible is a written revelation from the Sovereign Lord Jehovah to all people on this earth. This inspired book has global appeal, since it contains good news of a God-designed Messianic Kingdom that will establish peace and righteousness forever on a united Paradise earth. It shows that God lovingly provided a legal recovery from death for the world of fallen mankind by means of the ransom sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ.—John 3:16.

Fittingly, the complete Bible has been referred to as the Divine Library (Lat., Bibliotheca Divina), made up of 66 officially cataloged (canonical) books that are accepted as the inspired guide for determining truth. While many divide the two major sections of the Bible into “The Old Testament” and “The New Testament,” we designate the first 39 books as the Hebrew Scriptures and the remaining 27 books as the Christian Greek Scriptures, basing such a decision on language rather than on a claimed “Testament (Covenant)” division.—See “All Scripture Is Inspired of God and Beneficial,” pages 298-304 and App (Appendix) 7E.

This 1984 revised edition of the New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures richly enhances accurate Bible knowledge by means of several distinctive features such as the marginal (cross) references, an extensive footnote apparatus, a concordance (Bible Words Indexed) and an appendix. Modern computerization has assisted greatly in preparing these features..."

Now back to these questions, that is, it is your belief that Jesus is God himself.

For which I categorically say that you're wrong on many levels.



You said:

"Since you still haven't answered my questions on the "Jesus is not God" issue, I'm re-posting them here:


I want to list a few verses of scripture from the NWT for you to compare and reconcile:

Isa 7:14 - Therefore Jehovah himself will give ​YOU​ men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im‧man′u‧el.

Isa 9:6 - For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, MIGHTY GOD, ETERNAL FATHER, Prince of Peace

Compare with:

Mt 1:23 - Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im‧man′u‧el,” which means, when translated, “WITH US IS GOD.” (not "A" god)

My Answer: You're mistaken. The Scriptures you cited above DOESN'T prove for even a single moment that Jesus is GOD, that is, the Almighty GOD, if that's what you meant.

Consider the original object of the prophecy at Isaiah 7. In context here's what it said:

“. . .‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah has said: “It will not stand, neither will it take place. 8 For the head of Syria is Damascus, and the head of Damascus is Re′zin; and within just sixty-five years E′phra·im will be shattered to pieces so as not to be a people. 9 And the head of E′phra·im is Sa·mar′i·a, and the head of Sa·mar′i·a is the son of Rem·a·li′ah. Unless YOU people have faith, YOU will in that case not be of long duration.”’” 10 And Jehovah went on speaking some more to A′haz, saying: 11 “Ask for yourself a sign from Jehovah your God, making it as deep as She′ol or making it high as the upper regions.” 12 But A′haz said: “I shall not ask, neither shall I put Jehovah to the test.”” (Isaiah 7:7-12)


“13 And he proceeded to say: “Listen, please, O house of David. Is it such a little thing for YOU to tire out men, that YOU should also tire out my God? 14 Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man′u·el. 15 Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. 16 For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely. 17 Jehovah will bring against you and against your people and against the house of your father days such as have not come since the day of E′phra·im’s turning away from alongside Judah, namely, the king of As·syr′i·a.” (Isaiah 7:13-17)

Since this prophecy was FIRST FULFILLED in Isaiah's day, did it mean then that GOD was PHYSICALLY with them when IMMANUEL was born?

Of course NOT, so what does the IMMANUEL mean then in Isaiah's day?

Simple - the birth of this "son/boy" will SERVE as a SIGN from God that He is with them (the Jews) when Syria finally attacks Judah. Thus they have nothing to fear -if they truly will PUT their complete trust on Him (Jehovah God).

Noticed the preceding verses:

“Now it came about in the days of A′haz the son of Jo′tham the son of Uz·zi′ah, the king of Judah, that Re′zin the king of Syria and Pe′kah the son of Rem·a·li′ah, the king of Israel, came up to Jerusalem for war against it, and he proved unable to war against it. 2 And a report was made to the house of David, saying: “Syria has leaned upon E′phra·im.” And his heart and the heart of his people began to quiver, like the quivering of the trees of the forest because of a wind. 3 And Jehovah proceeded to say to Isaiah: “Go out, please, to meet A′haz, you and She′ar-ja′shub your son, to the end of the conduit of the upper pool by the highway of the laundryman’s field. 4 And you must say to him, ‘Watch yourself and keep undisturbed. Do not be afraid, and do not let your heart itself be timid because of the two tail ends of these smoking logs, because of the hot anger of Re′zin and Syria and the son of Rem·a·li′ah, 5 for the reason that Syria [with] E′phra·im and the son of Rem·a·li′ah has advised what is bad against you, saying: 6 “Let us go up against Judah and tear it apart and by breakthroughs take it for ourselves; and let us make another king reign inside it, the son of Tab′e·el.”” (Isaiah 7:1-6)

The SECOND FULFILLMENT of the prophecy - that God will TURN His ATTENTION to the Jews (to be with them) is when Jesus was BORN.

As indicated here:

Mt 1:23 - Look! The virgin will become pregnant and will give birth to a son, and they will call his name Im‧man′u‧el,” which means, when translated, “WITH US IS GOD.”

In fact Jesus confirmed this very fact when he instructed his disciples the following:

“5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, giving them these orders: “Do not go off into the road of the nations, and do not enter into a Sa·mar′i·tan city; 6 but, instead, go continually to the lost sheep of the house of Israel . 7 As YOU go, preach, saying, ‘The kingdom of the heavens has drawn near.’ 8 Cure sick people, raise up dead persons, make lepers clean, expel demons. YOU received free, give free. 9. . .” (Matthew 10:5-9)


The OTHER fact also that Jesus is not GOD the Almighty himself - in the flesh - is the fact that he was also given several PROPHETIC names - mentioned here:


“. . .For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.” (Isaiah 9:6)



Eternal Father:
-- Jehovah has granted him the power and authority to give humans the prospect of eternal life in perfection on earth.—Isaiah 9:6.


Prince of Peace:
-- As the Ruler of God’s Kingdom, Jesus will establish on earth a peace that will be global and will never end.—Isaiah 9:6.

Wonderful Counselor:
-- Jesus’ counsel is always practical and perfect. Following it leads to salvation.—Isaiah 9:6; John 6:68.

Mighty God - as opposed to Almighty God Jehovah. But do you know that men are also refereed to as gods?

If this is the case then why not Jesus being a Mighty one?

I'll stop here since the rest of the scripture you cited doesn't prove Jesus is Jehovah God the Almighty.


take care.  

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