Jehovah`s Witness/Jesus created by God
QUESTION: Hello Eddie, we have corresponded before. I've been contemplating the JW assertion that God created Jesus and Jesus created everything else. Does "everything else" pertain to not only the earth but every living creature on earth?
ANSWER: Good question Ron.
I'll make this short as I can.
The answer is YES and NO!
YES in that Jesus was used heavily by Jehovah, his Father IN creating "everything else" and NO in that Jesus did not directly create everything else on his own, but shared in the creation of "everything else" with God. He was a "master worker" working alongside his Father for an unknown period of time (Proverbs 8:22-31. Otherwise Jesus can be referred as "creator" or "co-creator".
You can see this for yourself if you read Matthew 19:4-6 where Jesus admitted:
“4 In reply he said: “Did YOU not read that he who created them from [the] beginning made them male and female 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and his mother and will stick to his wife, and the two will be one flesh’? 6 So that they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart.””
Now ask yourself this question. If Jesus is the Creator or a Co-creator, why did he say that his Father was the ONE who created the first human couple Adam and Eve? If he was the creator or responsible for them, he should have said "I created them male and female", but instead gave that right to his Father.
Why? It's because the POWER to create ANYTHING and EVERYTHING came from ONLY ONE source, his Father and God - Jehovah God (Gen 1:2, Isa 40:26, 28, 45:18)
Thus Jesus rightly can say:
“Therefore, in answer, Jesus went on to say to them: “Most truly I say to YOU, The Son cannot do a single thing of his own initiative, but only what he beholds the Father doing. For whatever things that One does, these things the Son also does in like manner.” (John 5:19)
So by referring to the book of Genesis, Jesus properly addressed his Father - Jehovah God 'The Creator' of the first human couple because he is the ONLY Creator. In fact he referred to himself as the "the beginning of the creation by God".
Jesus himself testified to this fact when he gave the following message to John the last surviving apostle:
“A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John,” (Revelation 1:1)
“And to the angel of the congregation in La•o•di•ce′a write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God
,” (Revelation 3:14)
The apostles Paul understood this to be the case also when he said the following:
“. . .He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation
. . .” (Colossians 1:13-15)
Thus after CREATING him (that is Jesus), God created other things or all things came into existence through him - through Jesus.
Continuing Paul said:
“. . .because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,” (Colossians 1:16, 17)
So if you're reading the Creation account, to get a complete picture, you need to read Genesis 1:1 with John 1:3 and Col 1:16, 17. Thus you have the full picture and get something like this:
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth 'through' his son Jesus" because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,”
All other things includes the angels as well as all creatures on earth.
It can't get any simpler than that.
[an error occurred while processing this directive]---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi Eddie,
My problem with your answer is that you are making your case using a bible created by your church to support it's beliefs. Even thought Charles Russell created your religion in the 1870s, up until around 1961, your church used the KJV Bible, and then the ASV (an offshoot of the KJV). In the 1960s your church created the NWT making changes that support it's doctrine. Subsequent revisions of your bible included more changes as your church's beliefs changed. My Bible has been the same for 2000 years. There are ancient manuscripts (Such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, found between 1947 & 1956, and an almost complete book of John known as "Papyrus #66", found in 1952) that support the accuracy of my Bible. Can you give any examples of ancient writings that support yours?
However, even if I went with your explanation, it brings up a few questions:
Why does Gen 1:1 not say that God created Jesus, and then the heavens and the earth through Him? "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth" is a pretty cut and dry statement. So if your version is correct, isn't that an important piece of information for Christians to know without having to decipher it? Or, why does it not say "In the beginning A god (lower case "g") created the Heavens and the earth" after being Himself created by God? Gen 1:1 states very simply that GOD created the Heavens and the earth.
More importantly, why would God allow Christians to follow a flawed Bible until your church came along and got it right 19 centuries after Jesus' resurrection? Wouldn't God have raised up a Charles Russell about 15 or so centuries earlier, so that His people would get the right message? Why would God allow countless numbers of people to follow a false message and worship a false god for almost the entire time up to Jesus' second coming, only to have the truth revealed to us near the end of the age by Charles Russell?
THAT is what makes religions like yours, the Mormons, the Catholics, etc. suspect (putting it mildly) to me. The things your bibles/doctrines contain basically make believing my Bible sacrilege. And the one thing they all have in common is they all came along long AFTER the events occurred. The Catholic church, though they call themselves "the one true church", didn't organize into a church until around the 4th century. Joseph Smith and the Mormons came along in the 1820s, and your guy Russell came along in the 1870s.
Another thing that comes to mind, regarding the John 1:1 topic that I believe we've discussed before, THOUSANDS of scholars have gone over the King James Version of the bible since 1611, producing HUNDREDS of other Bibles (the list is far too long to provide here) that line up with the KJV. Not only does your church have only TWO bibles that support it's contents; Wilson's Emphatic Diaglott (which C.T. Russell bought the rights to), and Godspeed's An American Translation. The scholars for my Bible can be easily found. Your church refuses to name it's scholars, citing not wanting to give them any glory (or words to that effect) as the reason. That's awful convenient, seeing it makes verifying their academic credentials impossible.
ANSWER: Hi Ron,
I'm a bit puzzled as to your type of questioning. Not sure actually what your looking for. If it's the truth or just making a point to elevate yourself above the rest as the one who knows it all. If you do, well good for you but at least be honest in what you're asking.
Really what are you up to and which Bible do you want to use in this discussion? I need to know these before I reply to your follow up because your all over the place.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Sorry you were confused. While I was addressing the Gen 1:1 portion of your response to me, I felt as if the Lord was bringing the John 1:1 issue to my remembrance, so I included it. I am in no way trying to elevate myself above anyone, and I certainly don't claim to "know it all", but at the same time I will not apologize for God having revealed the knowledge of His truth to me, and I thank and praise Him for His truth.
That being said, I think my email was pretty clear. I'm not only looking for answers, but a credible explanation of how you can believe your truth. I re-read my email, and I don't see where you are having trouble with it. I only found a few grammatical and punctuation errors. I don't see how those can be tripping you up. I hardly think that I was "all over the place". There are two separate issues that I laid out paragraph by paragraph. The questions I asked seem to me to be straight forward and lucid. Likewise, my concerns about your church teachings aren't hard to understand. Feel free to dispute them (as well as anything I wrote regarding your church's history), as long as you can explain them clearly, and your explanation can be backed up by credible sources independent of your church's teachings.
I'm looking for clarity, Eddie, because your bible doesn't jibe with my Bible, nor does it jibe with the multiple other versions that support my Bible. And since my Bible has been around longer, I need to know why yours is right. I need to know why the thousands of scholars that worked on the KJV and other versions over the last 400+ years got it wrong, and the unknown and unnamed number of scholars that created your bible over the last 50 years got it right. And I also need to know how you know they got it right, when you don't even know if they are scholars at all, because your church won't identify them. Aren't you even a little suspicious that your church won't name the people who worked on your bible? How can you trust their credentials? That's a little like the Mormons who believe that Joseph Smith found these golden tablets and a seer stone, but only HE was able to translate God's words and we just have to take his word for it that it's from God and it's correct. I don't believe God works that way.
Am I correct to assume that you're one of those they call KJV Onlyites? If so then I now understand where you're coming from. I wished you've stated from the beginning to use the KJV Bible when citing scriptures so that we didn't have to go through this back 'n forth. Since I'm a Jehovah's Witness, you should have expected that I will quote from the NWT!
Were expecting me somehow to use a different Bible? If so then you should have known by now that we use the NWT as our main source of scriptures.
Anyhow, based on the NWT did I prove my point about Jesus being the "firstborn of creation" and that the title Creator is only reserved for his Father and God Jehovah?
That Jesus IS not the creator or co-creator but the "master worker" working alongside his Father during creation?
If so then I rest my case on that one.
As for this question of yours:
<"I need to know why the thousands of scholars that worked on the KJV and other versions over the last 400+ years got it wrong, and the unknown and unnamed number of scholars that created your bible over the last 50 years got it right.">
Easy, TRUTH is Truth. It's like this.
In order to find out if a $bill is a forgery, bankers teach their employees to study the real thing first. Learn as much as they can about it because the more they know about the real dollar the easier they can spot a fake $$bill. An EXPERT in spotting a forged $$bill means that he knows very well the ins and outs of the real $$bill.
Same thing with ALL of the Bible in EXISTENCE today - IF YOU KNOW THE TRUTH, you can easily spot which one is corrupt.
The KJV is such INSPITE of the as you stated <"thousands of scholars that worked on the KJV and other versions over the last 400+ years> they still <"got it wrong">!
The NWT on the other hand, even though the translators were <"unknown"> as you stated <"and unnamed number of scholars that created> the NWT <"over the last 50 years> they <"got it right.">!
The proof of this is on the "pudding" as they say. The contents speaks the TRUTH.
- I'll do some comparison in my next post to prove my point.