Jehovah`s Witness/Come to Jesus or Jehovah?

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Question
You said..."yet you claim you were brought to Christ in a structure where there was a cross on its structure."

REPLY:  Say what????  Where you people dream up this stuff, is beyond me.  Sir, I have NEVER once stated that I was "brought to Christ in a structure where there was a cross on its structure".  

I HAVE stated that I came to Christ in an A/G church.  How do you know this particular A/G church had a cross on its structure?  That was 28 years ago, and I don't even remember that detail myself...How would YOU know it?  There may be a cross in the church somewhere, but I couldn't tell you where its at, which should actually PROVE that my coming to Christ did not involve bowing before, or praying to, a cross.  If so, I think I would remember a little more detail about the cross being there, or not being there.



I didn't say YOU said that the structure has a cross,I said you claim you were saved in IN THAT BUILDING ,I was the one saying the structure had a cross,you seem to not be able to just answer the question without adding whats not there to sidetrack or diminish.

Then your very next statement you confirm both of what I said :

"HAVE stated that I came to Christ in an A/G church"  "There may be a cross in the church"

Is that not what I said?

"Where you people dream up this stuff"  tell me whats be dreamed up,you confirmed my statement,you made a comment using silly directed to me,but just this little dialog I think shows who is silly,you accuse me of dreaming up something thats not true then you show everything was true,this is just one example I'm not going to bring up others.


 "How do you know this particular A/G church had a cross on its structure?"

Is that not a silly question,its like saying how do you know the 2nd Church of Satan had a pentagram,its not there might be a pentagram somewhere that is the belief same as where you claimed you were saved.You raised the possibly that same have crosses and some dont then prove that a Assemblies of God building dont have a cross anywhere on the property.

But that was really not the issue the issue was you said it was wrong to worship the cross in its services ,I dont really care of no Assemblies of God had a cross to be frank,I'm just showing that you understand the use of a cross in worship is forbidden in scripture but than say nothing is wrong with one being in a building just as long as no one bow down to its image,I think this shows how you are being mislead in your thinking,that is why I used the pentagram as an example but you missed the point.
The very sight of a pentagram brings the thought of Satan,the same with a cross and I believe you even said something like this,so you understand the use of images.So to have a image of a cross where there is worship is wrong was mu point ,no matter what custom is observed ,it evoke jealousy to the true God Jehovah,that image used in worship is directed to his son not to him and that a violation he gave to Moses.,your belief that as long as you dont do what Catholic's do somehow it acceptable to have a image of a cross in a religious worship is misleading and unscriptual.That image is used in worship otherwise why is it there.

I'm not going to get into a debate as to what Jesus died on thats not the point of what God told Moses,no image whatever he said to make so if Jesus died on a large flat board and a image of a flat large board was made is a violation of that scripture.

To say well we have the image of a cross but we dont bow before it is also another misleading statement,when prayer is offered that is bowing to that image :

"You must not make for yourself a carved image" is a cross a carved image? only you can answer that.That image is of a Deity
and its worship to a craved image.

If it were true that the image is just to remind the worshiper of Christ, is it still not worship.

Encyclopedic dictionary says in Volume 9, page 574:

“Idolatry signifies nothing else, etymologically speaking, than the worship of images."


To have a image of any kind in a place of worship to God is then Idolatry and punishable with death.
You try to justify your use of idolatry by saying

"In fact, her Watchtower magazines have an image of the symbol of a Watchtower, which itself, has some pagan connections"

So what you are saying is we are also guilty of  Idolatry ,my question then is looking at the scripture.


“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.”

So to be guilty then we would have a carved image of a watchtower on our place of worship as a symbol of our worship,first of all God was saying You must not have any other gods against my face.

A watchtower is not a image of a Deity,a crucifix is a image of a Deity,a cross with out image of Christ is a image used for worship.
An example of what God was saying is what Satan tried to do to Jesus,he told Jesus to bow to him,yet humans can bow to other humans and it would not be worship,the difference is Satan is a god so bowing to him he knew would be a violation of the scriptures.

Christ is also a god and any image depicting him would also be a violation of that verse.

You are well aware of worshiping Jesus you said:

"Just as if I was passing by a Christian church with a cross, I would assume they worshiped CHRIST"

You even had it capitalized for some reason yet Christ said to a person who just called him good he said no one is good except God
I know its lost to you that worshiping Jesus is a violation of that verse but God said .You must not have any other gods against my face. would that omit Jesus who is a god ,he said any other gods.

This was my whole point to my original question Do the Assemblies of God have an image of a cross in it's worship?
The answer is yes they do have a image of a cross and yes its a practice to bow in prayer to the cross.doesn't matter if its right in front or on top of the building or one in a chamber somewhere the worship is of Jesus not of Jehovah and that was my point not really if they have a cross or not,you miss my point by saying some have crosses some dont as if those that dont worship Jehovah and we both know they all worship Jesus who is a god against Jehovah's face I didn't dream of that verse.

Take your time to respond

Answer
Hello, Calvin.

As I told you, I am quite busy with my discussion on the cross with Eddie.  I do not have the time right now for follow-ups from you, when your only goal is to nit-pick and twist things.  Such as...

""Where you people dream up this stuff"  tell me whats be dreamed up,you confirmed my statement,you made a comment using silly directed to me,but just this little dialog I think shows who is silly,you accuse me of dreaming up something thats not true then you show everything was true,this is just one example I'm not going to bring up others."

That's just one example.  I did not say your comment wasn't TRUE...I said it has been too long for me to remember if, or where, the cross was, and that you yourself couldn't possibly know that.  I also pointed out that there may very well have been one, but that since it is not part of their worship, it simply doesn't stand out to me.

And from that, you get..."you accuse me of dreaming up something that's not true"  

And what I said was "silly", was the way you changed the wording of the question, in an attempt to bait me.  You asked about whether I would assume if I saw a Pentagram on the building, would I assume the worship Satan, when you SHOULD have asked if I would assume they worship the Pentagram itself.  Then, and only then, would the question have made sense, and been comparable to the point you wanted to make on the cross.

My answer was quite simple...If I drove by a "church" with the symbol of the Pentagram, I would assume they were identifying themselves as worshippers of Satan, but I would not assume they necessarily worshipped the Pentagram itself.  Likewise, when I drive by a Christian church with a cross, I assume they are identifying themselves as believing in, and worshipping, Jesus Christ.  To assume they worshipped the cross itself, would be ridiculous.

Now Calvin, I don't normally like to point out people's bad grammar, because some people just can't help it.  But since you are wanting to pick apart every statement and be insulting, and imply that I am being evasive, I will just point out part of the problem here....Your grammar and punctuation are terrible, and I am doing the best I can to decipher your question and answer it.  But you make it quite difficult, when you will not divide sentences properly, and use correct grammar.

Not to mention that your way of thinking is, shall we just say, "unique"?


Then, you made a false comment...."The answer is yes they do have a image of a cross and yes its a practice to bow in prayer to the cross.

I believe it was Hitler who stated that, if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough, people will eventually start to believe it.  

Joseph Goebbels said it this way..."The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous."

Oh, did I mention that the A/G does NOT bow in prayer TO the cross, as you falsely stated?  I should know...I was in it for 6 years, and never once saw this occur.  


YOU:  "You even had it capitalized for some reason yet Christ said to a person who just called him good he said no one is good except God
I know its lost to you that worshiping Jesus is a violation of that verse but God said .You must not have any other gods against my face. would that omit Jesus who is a god ,he said any other gods.


Apparently its lost on YOU, that Jesus was worshipped, and rightfully so, over 20 times in the New Testament.  I guess its also lost on you, that it was the Father Himself, Who commanded that ALL the angels, Michael included, should worship Jesus.  

Actually, you dishonor Jehovah when you refuse to worship Jesus Christ.  The Bible clearly says that it will be at the name of Jesus, that EVERY knee will bow....and that includes yours.  

But for you to make the connection that worshipping Christ, is to worship the cross, is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read, and doesn't even deserve the dignity of a reply.  You know better.

Actually, I said ONE of the most ridiculous.  Until I read this....

"we both know they all worship Jesus who is a god against Jehovah's face"

Sure that isn't what you really meant to say.  If it is, then you know absolutely nothing about the Bible.  Jesus is "a god against Jehovah's face"??  I don't think even a JW on this board, would go along with that statement.  WOW!


YOU:  "So to have a image of a cross where there is worship is wrong was mu point ,no matter what custom is observed ,it evoke jealousy to the true God Jehovah,that image used in worship is directed to his son not to him and that a violation he gave to Moses.,your belief that as long as you dont do what Catholic's do somehow it acceptable to have a image of a cross in a religious worship is misleading and unscriptual.That image is used in worship otherwise why is it there."

Unfortunately, your wrong assumptions do not constitute fact.  You ask why its there, if not for worship??  Simple...Its a SYMBOL of being a follower of Christ.  Just like a ball team has a symbol, most businesses have a symbol, and symbols are all over the place, the cross is a symbol of the suffering of Christ.  It has nothing to do with worshipping the cross itself.

This is just a plain ignorant statement.

Again, your opinions are fascinating to read, because it shows how people just ignore Scriptures.  And no, I didn't "miss your point"...I just find it absurd, because it isn't Biblical.  You have an OPINION that having a symbol equals worshipping the symbol, and that having an image is automatically wrong, but you never bothered to even address the passage in Exodus where Jehovah Himself commanded the images to be in the temple.

Instead, you gave your opinion, which was in direct contrast to what the passage said.  Which passage I noticed, you didn't bother to address.


YOU:  "I'm not going to get into a debate as to what Jesus died on thats not the point of what God told Moses,no image whatever he said to make so if Jesus died on a large flat board and a image of a flat large board was made is a violation of that scripture.

To say well we have the image of a cross but we dont bow before it is also another misleading statement,when prayer is offered that is bowing to that image :

"You must not make for yourself a carved image" is a cross a carved image? only you can answer that.That image is of a Deity and its worship to a craved image."

These are some of the silliest statements I have ever read, and I cannot even believe you would type them.

First off, I did not think you would want to enter the discussion of WHAT Jesus died on.  The evidence is against the JW position on that one.

Secondly, "God told Moses 'no image whatsoever'"??  THIS is the extent of your Scriptural understanding?  

Uh, no...He said not to WORSHIP or BOW down to any image whatsoever.  It was God Who COMMANDED the images in Exodus 25, to be put there.  

Again, your "opinion" goes against Scripture, and reflects a sad lack of being able to read plain statements in the Bible.

Third, where on earth do you get that the cross is the image of a "deity"?  Wow, just wow.

YOU:  "So what you are saying is we are also guilty of  Idolatry ,my question then is looking at the scripture.


“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.”

So to be guilty then we would have a carved image of a watchtower on our place of worship as a symbol of our worship,first of all God was saying You must not have any other gods against my face.

A watchtower is not a image of a Deity,a crucifix is a image of a Deity,a cross with out image of Christ is a image used for worship.

Ah, NOW look who is trying to justify idolatry.  Now, you don't want to accept my perfectly true and logical explanation that we view the cross merely as a symbol of a reminder of Jesus' death on our behalf, and do not worship it.  Instead, you continue spouting the lies of your brethren, by continuing to claim that we bow and pray to it.  

But now, you try and wiggle out of the fact your own WT magazine has a pagan symbol.  This is hilarious....You think its WRONG to have a pagan symbol on the building, but its perfectly OKAY to have one plastered on your literature?  Good grief, Man!  If that's the case, then WHY did the WT remove the symbol of the cross and crown that was prominently displayed ON THE LITERATURE for years, saying that it was viewed as "pagan" and "Babylonish"?

Do you idolize the Watchtower?  Sure you do.  Now, I will be more honest than you and your counter-parts, and I will not claim that you bow to the symbol of the Watchtower, or pray to it.  I don't have to lie, to prove my point.  But you DO revere the Watcthower, and you view it as the MOUTHPIECE by which God communicates to mankind.  When its comments are in contrast with the Bible, you go with the Watchtower every single time.  

I would call that "idolatry", Calvin.

But I THINK, after reading your very difficult manner of writing, that you believe the way to commit idolatry, is to put the symbol on the building, and then offer a prayer or worship to God in that same building?

But its perfectly fine to have it plastered on your literature, and respect what IT says, above what the Bible says.


Calvin, this nonsensical conversation is simply a waste of my time.  As I said, I'm quite busy posting the facts on this topic, and with my discussion with Eddie.  You are entitled to your opinion, but that is all it is...Your opinion.

Take care, Calvin.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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