Jehovah`s Witness/JW Hypocrisy


Let's just start with some recent quotes...

Eddie G: "1. The cross is connected to the symbol of male and female genital organs.  
2. That it is connected with sex worship.  
3. That it is connected with sun-worship.  
4. That it already existed way before the advent of Christianity."

DW: "You can't just pick on choose what you want to believe and what you don't."

I want to be the second person (remember, you were the first) to agree with everything that was just said, well...sort of.  As long as #4 shows that #'s 1-3 were never done by true Christians, I'll go along with those statements.  But if the point was to show that the symbol similar to the cross was pagan at some point before Christianity began, I'll agree with that.  And necessarily, the modern thought of the cross must necessarily be pagan if it was pagan back then.  That is the assertion, yes?

DW's statement that you can't pick and choose what you want to believe and what you don't...I totally agree.  So, obviously, if something was EVER pagan, it should be no part of a true Christian's life, like the cross, or inserting blood, or birthday celebrations...because you can't pick and choose what you want to believe and what you don't, right?

I mean, the Watchtower is very clear why you can't celebrate birthday celebrations...they are pagan!

“Down to the fourth century Christianity rejected the birthday celebration as a pagan custom.” Reasoning from the Scriptures p.69

“What about the birthday cake? It appears to be related to the Greek goddess Artemis, whose birthday was celebrated with moon-shaped honey cakes topped with candles.” Mankind’s Search for God p.70

“Such celebrations have their roots in pagan religions, and not Scriptural grounds. Some Bible commentators suggest that birthday celebrations may have had their origin in the “notion of the immortality of the soul”.” Watchtower 1951 Oct 1 p.607

My goodness, the cross is pagan, birthday celebrations are pagan, someone was killed at a birthday celebration in the Bible!  Stay away, you can't pick and choose!  Let's make a big deal out of these things so we can be different from Christendom.  (Or as Benyamin Grunbaum so aptly put it, we would start celebrating Easter if Christendom stopped, just to be different [paraphrased])

But you know what?  We JW's sure like weddings.  We wouldn't have any fun if it weren't for getting hitched.  But how exactly do you have a non-pagan wedding?  Weddings are laden in paganism, including the ceremony, cake, dress, burning of candles and the wedding ring.

For some reason a Witness is allowed to participate in most wedding practices, but forbidden to throw confetti. But at least someone didn't die at a wedding in the Bible, right?  Well, except for those time that the giving of wedding presents is accompanied by murder. David was required to supply the foreskins of 200 slain Philistines as a dowry to King Saul (1 Sam 18:27). Pharaoh killed the inhabitants of Gezer and gave the city as a wedding gift to his daughter, Solomon's wife. (1 Kings 9:16 NIV). But, hey, let's not pick and choose!  So, for the sake of consistency and lack of confusion on pagan stuff, let's make this statement...

“A main concern is, not what the practice meant hundreds of years ago, but how it is viewed today in your area. Understandably, opinions may vary from one place to another. Hence, it is wise to avoid turning such matters into big issues.” Awake! 2003 Sep 22 pp.23-24

Wait, what?!?  So...I can do pagan things now if they don't mean what they used to mean?  or You can't pick and choose?

JW logic.


Jim, what can I say?  That was a very good post on your part, and very well-written, with excellent points.  

I am glad that you, and other people, are following this cross discussion.  It has been so time-consuming (and interesting), that I haven't even had time to address the SEVERAL lies that Rando has been telling again, inventing quotes from me out of thin air, and willfully trying to be deceitful because he feels he is being ignored...:)  I believe this cross/stake discussion, has shown once again, how free some JWs are with the "facts" they present.

I have noticed now a couple of times in Eddie's replies, even again today, that he seems stuck on this thing about continuing to repeat like a broken record, that the cross has had pre-Christian pagan uses.  I have told him several times now that this was never a point of contention, but he keeps repeating over and over how "correct" he was on that...Evidently, to console himself about all of the things he was shown to be INCORRECT on.  Like he's trying to stay afloat, or something...Kind of reminds me of the guy out in the middle of the ocean, who desperately tries to cling to one piece of wood (a POLE, without a cross-beam, of course), to stay afloat, because everything else around him has been sunk.

Why he needs to keep reminding everyone that "I was correct about the cross's pagan use", is a mystery, because it NEVER was the point of the discussion, and it has no relevance to what Jesus died on, OR, what it means to a Christian today.  The fact is...He was wrong when he claimed born again Christians worship it, and he was wrong when he claimed Jesus didn't die on one.  

And you make a VERY good point....They ARE picking and choosing what they want to believe, and that quote from the AWAKE! was quite revealing, in that it clearly condemns what the JWs are doing, and what the WT ITSELF does....making a big issue out of something, even though the pagan meaning attached to it is completely gone, and it is a valid symbol of Christianity, because it WAS the instrument of Jesus' execution.

It seems what Ed is trying to argue, is that if something EVER had a pagan meaning, that it can NEVER be used in a completely different manner, totally removed from that pagan meaning.  Unless, of course, its a wedding ring, or a wedding cake, etc.  

You know what the bottom line is?  If the Watchtower DECIDES its forbidden, then its forbidden.  If the Watchtower decides its okay, then its okay.  Even if its IDENTICAL in its origin, to something they condemn.

And once again, this is evidence that the WT is the final authority to them, rather than the Word of God.

Great post, Jim, and very good points!  Take care, and God bless.


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Derrick Holland


I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.


29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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