Jehovah`s Witness/God and Morality(rewritten)
Hello Derrick. Ignore the other and answer this. I have some update plus clarifications.
My main question to you was if Morality is apart from Law and God or its' source is God.
I believe we both made errors. We both connected Morality with "Law Orders". I'll explain.
You said that "God cant be evil", but also "who are we to place our definition of evil on God" or "God determines what is sin". These were contradictory statements, we either have an inner voice of consciousness and moral values, or we obey to the lawmaker without questions. I also hope you understand that I dont imply I can "judge" the Creator of everything. Of course I cant, but I can describe Him. We say God is Love, we describe not judge Him.
My error was that since everything has its' source on God, then Morality comes from God. Its an "unwritten law" inside our hearts, as Paul says. God has put this sense in our nature. He has given us the sense of good/evil, the idea of beautiful/ugly plus our free will.
But then... all these christians that say we shouldnt question this or that because "God speaks and its right" are in blatant error. I have every right to be disguisted or doubt about everything concerning to morality. Its the inner voice that God has put inside me. Its in the nature God gave me. Of course Abraham doubted when he was told to sacrifice his son. Its physical!
When I read about David obeying Saul, killing 100 Philistines and bringing their cutten organs to Saul, I feel disguisted. When I also read about slaughters of children, animals etc. I have the right to doubt it was ordered by God. A part of this may just be national fights for land, as these that happen every day by man.
I may be wrong, maybe I dont know something, but I have the right to doubt or feel disguisted, because its just how God made me! Some people may believe what Jews did and continue to do, our because of God's will. Its their right, but also my right to doubt these things are ordered by God.
I think its important to differtiate the Morality, God gave us with the orders of a lawmaker. Otherwise good and evil are arbitrary, and we cant even define someone as lunatic who wants to destroy the Earth.
Bush said that Jesus told him in a dream to go and bomb Iraq...
PS I also asked why you believe "God cant sin because of His Nature". I dont say God will sin, but He freely doesnt sin. If He "cant sin", isnt that a restriction? But Free Will is not a restriction.
Good evening, Christaras. I hope you are well.
I think you have misunderstood some of what I said.
You write...."You said that "God cant be evil", but also "who are we to place our definition of evil on God" or "God determines what is sin". These were contradictory statements, we either have an inner voice of consciousness and moral values, or we obey to the lawmaker without questions. I also hope you understand that I dont imply I can "judge" the Creator of everything. Of course I cant, but I can describe Him. We say God is Love, we describe not judge Him."
I am not sure why you see these as contradictory statements. The problem is, you seem to be trying to explain the nature of God, with our human finite understanding, which will never work. There is no possible way that God can choose to commit evil, because it is outside of His very nature.
James 1:13- "Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:"
How can God be evil, or even choose evil, when He cannot even be tempted with the very thought of it?
Heb. 6:18- "That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:"
So, in the above passages, we see that God cannot be tempted with evil, nor can He lie.
In Habakkuk 1:13, we find yet another passage, which shows that God cannot do evil....
"Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?"
I know you said that we can't "judge the Creator", but for us to call His acts "evil", is to do precisely that. The question of His having the capability to do evil, is not a question of His power or ability to do so, but whether or not it is in His nature. It is not that He "chooses" to do good, because that implies He is sometimes tempted to do bad, yet that conflicts with the passage in James. God is simply not tempted to do anything outside of His very nature or being.
I believe, in answer to your question, that morality does come from God. Without a belief in God, there is no basis in defining morality. Evolutionary theory cannot tell us where morality comes from, or for that matter, what is or isn't, moral. God is the One Who defines what is sin, evil, or wicked, and He is the One Who gave us our conscience and His Word, to help us know and discern what is good, or evil.
Since we do not get to define what is "evil", we therefore, cannot imply that God can be "evil". Have you every heard the term, "playing God"
? Let me use it in a sentence...."We have no right to practice euthanasia, because we cannot play God"
. This very phrase, in and of itself, implies that God DOES reserve the right to decide who lives or dies, but we don't.
You said...."But then...all these christians that say we shouldnt question this or that because "God speaks and its right" are in blatant error. I have every right to be disguisted or doubt about everything concerning to morality. Its the inner voice that God has put inside me. Its in the nature God gave me. Of course Abraham doubted when he was told to sacrifice his son. Its physical!"
I disagree....If God says something is "right", then He doesn't have to explain it to me. His commands should be enough. Take His command against fornication, for instance. Many people today think..."Well, I really don't see anything wrong with it, if we love each other".
But that isn't what God said...He said to FLEE from it, and calls it "sin". He does not have to give every couple who is living in blatant sin, an explanation as to why He said this. He created the marriage union, and He created the sexual relationship....Therefore, He gets to determine the rules for its proper use.
The same thing with homosexuality....Today's world is pushing more and more for acceptance of this perversion and abomination. Its all around us....on TV, in the media, in politics, and even certain states here in the US, are legalizing same-sex unions. Rando even quoted some links from homosexual sites awhile back, and referred to those who are opposed to this perversion, as "hate groups". Regardless, God says its wrong, unnatural, error, and worthy of death. It is a perversion of the arrangement that God created, reserved for a man and a woman, in the bonds of marriage.
But, who gets to decide the correct view? Are all views equally valid? Are we being "intolerant" or "bigoted", for merely agreeing with the One Who told us that it was wrong? Should we love people who are trapped in this sin? Of course. And we should point them to Jesus Christ, as their hope of salvation. But never, should we condone, what the Law-Giver has called "abomination".
I said all that to say this....We are not the ones who determine what is "evil"....God does. If God does something, its RIGHT...Because that is His nature. Our nature, on the other hand, is fallen and sinful. Therefore, we cannot hold our low standards, as the means of judging the actions of a holy God.
Christaras, I am not one for watering things down. You seem to have some problems with what God did in certain instances in the Old Testament. Some things recorded in the Bible, are recorded because they simply happened, and that does not necessarily imply that God had anything to do with it. On the other hand, there are things that God DID command to be done, because He knows best, and does what is best. Our job is not to argue, or "feel disgusted"...Our job is to obey and trust. This thing of "feeling disgusted" makes me wonder....Do we now think our standards are higher than God's standards, of truth and justice?
I hope you are against abortion, Christaras. Because some of the people I have encountered who hate the God of the Bible for His "atrocities of killing innocent children", will then turn right around, after calling God a heinous killer for ordering such, and say that a woman and an abortion doctor have the right to kill an innocent unborn baby, and call it a "choice". That is hypocrisy in the highest degree!
Again, it goes back to "playing God". Implied in that statement, is the notion that God alone has the right to determine such matters, because God alone can see the future, and know what is the best action, and what the future consequences will be.
You said...."I may be wrong, maybe I dont know something, but I have the right to doubt or feel disguisted, because its just how God made me!"
God did not make anyone, so that they can argue with Him, or question His essential goodness of nature. Not saying that is what you're doing or anything, but I think that is where it gets dangerous. Yes, there are things that I wonder about, as to the "why" of it. But I simply have found that its best to trust God to be in control, honor His Word, and do what I'm supposed to be doing.
I think you are correct that God has put His laws into our hearts to a point, but not to the point where we are now in a position to question His goodness, because He does something beyond our understanding. Our understanding is very limited, but He sees the entire picture.
I admit I am not sure what Bush claiming that Jesus told him to bomb Iraq, has to do with anything. First off, I never heard that one before. Secondly, even if true, George Bush is not God. A lot of people claim "God told me", when God didn't tell them any such thing. So what? That still does not imply that God is capable of evil, just because someone claims He told them something.
And to answer this question...."I also asked why you believe "God cant sin because of His Nature". I dont say God will sin, but He freely doesnt sin. If He "cant sin", isnt that a restriction? But Free Will is not a restriction."
I think you are misunderstanding "free will". God does exercise a free will, in matters that are neither right nor wrong. God can originally decide He is going to judge Nineveh, and then change His mind at their repentance. God can decide that Hezekiah is going to die, but then grant him another 15 years, in answer to prayer. But no, God does not, and cannot, do anything contrary to His own holy nature. To sin, would make Him unholy. To fail, would make Him cease to be God. These are not restrictions....They are simply statements to the essential, and unchanging nature, of God.