Jehovah`s Witness/The Ransom question remains unanswered
I realize you may be busy with other questions, but since I have not been able to get an answer from an 'expert' who is an active member of the JW organization, and since you grew up in the JW religion & have seen many answers from active JWs on this forum I will ask you to tell me what JWs believe about the Ransom and how that belief corresponds with God's plan of salvation.
DW could have answered my questions several times over in the time it took him to 'run the clock out' by allowing me to use up all my 'follow-ups'.
I look forward to your reply.
You can follow much of my dialogue with 'expert' DW already on the forum. My most recent attempt at getting an answer is as follows:
Your question was
DW, I will state my questions about the Ransom again since you say I am only allowed two follow-ups at a time. If you take answering questions about the beliefs of Jehovah's Witnesses seriously, you will answer them outright & upfront & stop playing games with your ring-around-the-rosy, hide & seek, cat & mouse, catch-me-if-you-can non-answers.
In your profile you state "if you want to learn about Jehovah's witnesses and the Bible especially then send me a question and I will be happy to answer for you." and "the truth is so simple that it surprises many." If the truth is so simple, be a man of your word and answer my questions.
I am not being argumentative unless you consider asking a question & expecting an answer argumentative. And I have not refuted anything you have said concerning 'the Ransom'.
To refresh your memory, here is where our dialogue ended:
(DW's last answer) ANSWER: I could prove you wrong by doing that I won't disagree with that statement... on the other hand if I wanted to cast doubt on your entire reply I could quote from the very word of the almighty himself and let people judge for themselves
1 cor 3:
6 "I planted,+ A·pol′los watered,+ but God kept making it grow, 7 so that neither is the one who plants anything nor is the one who waters, but God who makes it grow"
Read the book I have no more to say on the subject
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
(My response) QUESTION: DW,
Just saying you could do something doesn't show you can. You present yourself as an 'expert', being able to answer questions about the Jehovah's Witness Organization/aka The Watchtower Society. Yet you seem to feel threatened when someone asks questions that should not be particulary difficult for someone with 'expert' knowledge.
The questions were:
1. What was the need and reason for the ransom of Jesus Christ? (A comment of yours prompted this question.)
2. What is God's plan of salvation? If according to WT interpretation of Romans 6: 7 & 23 our death absolves (acquits) us of all of our sins up to the point of death does that not make the ransom sacrifice of Jesus redundant (unnecessary, repetitive)? (Reading the JW link you referred me to prompted this question.)
Since all scripture can be backed up with other scriptures, please answer my questions with 'quote(s) from the very word of the almighty'. Book, chapter & verse. I prefer answers from scripture, not 'the book' you keep referring me to.
And what does your cryptic remark about casting doubt on my entire reply mean? Can't you just say what you mean & mean what you say?
Matt: 5:37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever is more than these cometh of evil. (KJV)
Matt: 5:37 Just let your word Yes mean Yes, your No, No; for what is in excess of these is from the wicked one. (NWT)
DW, don't hide your light under a bushel. Matt 5:15-16 "Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick: and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. Let your light so shine before men..." If you have answers, let them shine before all on this Q&A board. Otherwise we are only left to assume you have no light.
I'm sorry, I can't answer your followup question, but I can only answer one or two followups per questioner. I hope you understand.
Expert: Bro DW
So, DW... the ball is in your court.
By the way, I see you used your 'read the book' answer to David's question concerning "7)WTBTS have scriptural proof that they have been chosen by Jesus". I, too, have wanted to know where the scriptural basis for that can be found. But for now, I will be satisfied to get an answer to my questions about the Ransom.
(DW) I'm sorry, I can't answer your followup question, but I can only answer one or two followups per questioner. I hope you understand.
Expert: Bro DW
You have sent this to the wrong person. As you can see I am not Derrick. But I am happy to answer your questions bellow wiyh my own thoughts and words. The questions were:
1. What was the need and reason for the ransom of Jesus Christ?
In Old testament, there there are two Hebrew words that are rendered as “ransom”
pidyowm “that were redeemed, redemption” (Stongs)
kopher “properly, a cover, (literally) a village (as covered in); (specifically) bitumen (as used for coating), and the henna plant (as used for dyeing); figuratively, a redemption-price: ”
The the New Testament I also found two Greek words rendered into English as ransom
lutron “something to loose with, i.e. a redemption price (figuratively, atonement): — ransom.”
antilutron “a redemption-price: — ransom.” (Stongs) signifying what is given in exchange
for another as the price of his redemption, ransom as a substitute
So, basically, then looking at the Hebrew and the Greek, a ransom was a price given in exchange
for something else. From the Hebrew we see that the price that was to be given was be a covering for price, not a loosely fitting covering but an exact covering substituting for the original.
In the case for “the need and reason for the ransom of Jesus Christ
” Jesus gave his life that he gave was a substitute for Adam. How so? Adam was created perfect. He was without sin. If he made the intelligent choice to obey God he would never age, become frail and die. He was told the only reason why he would die is if he disobeyed Gods one and only “DO NOT” (see Genesis 2:17
) That is what the inheritance for all mankind was to be life unending here on earth. (Isaiah 45:18
“ who formed it [earth] even to be inhabited.” - see also Ps. 37:11; Matt 5:5
) Adams continued existence and life depended on him being obedient and recognising the sovereignty of God over him. But, because he sinned before he had any offspring, he passed on his imperfection (sin) to them “. . That is why, just as through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned. . .(Romans 5:12
) 1 Corinthians 15:45
shows that Jesus is compared with (or corresponds to) Adam. . .“The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam [Jesus] became a life-giving spirit.”
The ransom of Jesus, therefore, was the price paid to buy back the perfect life that Adam lost for all his descendants. With out the she blood of Jesus we could not become reconciled to God (2 Corinthians 5:18, 19
“18 But all things are from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of the reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was by means of Christ reconciling a world to himself, not reckoning to them their trespasses, and he committed the word of the reconciliation to us.”)
I will divide the next question into 2
2a. What is God's plan of salvation?
Gods plan for salvation was the the death of Jesus as a corresponding ransom, the price that completely corresponds with Adam. Jesus had to be born as a perfect human with God as his father and die as a perfect human, unlike Adam who lost his perfection and died. Jesus had the potential to give birth to a race of perfect humans, and they could have populated the earth. If he did that then the rest of mankind would have had no hope of having the sentence of death hang over us. Instead of fathering a perfect human race he gave that up and his own life so that the value of that would cover (correspond) to that of what happened under Adam.
Another provision of salvation is the Kingdom of God with Jesus as the King of that kingdom. That Kingdom will restore the earth to the what God intended when he created mankind, a perfect place of peace with all mankind living in perfect harmony
Now God has allowed Satan to mislead the earth for a set period of time. When that time is up he will be abyssed for, according to the Bible, 1000 years (Revelation 20:1-3
“ And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven with the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he seized the dragon, the original serpent, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. 3 And he hurled him into the abyss and shut [it] and sealed [it] over him, that he might not mislead the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After these things he must be let loose for a little while.”)
During that time when Satan is not around to influence mankind, we will be growing back to perfection. After the period of 1000 years Satan is “let loose for a little while” to test mankind again. After that he and any other creature that follow him will be permanently cut off. The full benefit of Christ blood will be applied to all mankind then alive.
2b If according to WT interpretation of Romans 6: 7 & 23 our death absolves (acquits) us of all of our sins up to the point of death does that not make the ransom sacrifice of Jesus redundant (unnecessary, repetitive)?
Lets look at hose two texts
For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin
For the wages sin pays is death, but the gift God gives is everlasting life by Christ Jesus our Lord.
To understand what hat means we need to know that the Bible speaks of 2 types of death. The first one is what is mentioned above, the death due to our inherited imperfection , that which we got from Adam. When (if) we die due to that death, our sins are forgiven. That death has the resurrection attached to it. So those that are asleep in death due to what we inherit can be resurrected. (Acts 24:15
“15 and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”) This resurrection will take place during the 1000 years reign of Jesus and the period when Satan is abyssed.
At the end of the 1000 years Satan and any that follow him will be hurled into a second death, one that there is no return from, a complete cutting of from life. They are forever destroyed in the same way as when we burn something with fire. Fire consumes completely and we can not put a thing back together again.
Those that listen to the words of Jesus and follow Gods commands will not be subject to the second death “Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations: He that conquers will by no means be harmed by the second death” (Revelation 2:11
Those that had been resurrected from the first type of death (even if they were wicked before hand) and adjust their lives to conform to Gods standard will also avoid the second death.
(Revelation 20:13-15) 13 And the sea gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. 15 Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.”
Those that resist Satan’s final attack are now free to enjoy life without being enslaved to death any more. At the end of that 100 years when all has been accomplished Jesus hands back the kingdom to hid God
(1 Corinthians 15:25-28
“ 25 For he must rule as king until [God] has put all enemies under his feet. 26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing. 27 For [God] “subjected all things under his feet.” But when he says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one who subjected all things to him. 28 But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.”
1 Corinthians 15:26
above says “the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.” and in Revelation 20:14
we see how this is done. Figuratively “ death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire” The lack of fire is not a real lake. It is piscatorial of the gehenna ( Literally the valley of hinnon). Gehenna was the rubbish dump our side of Jerusalem that was kept burning so as not to spread disease. All rubbish thrown into it were completely cut of and destroyed. So death and hades (the common grave) due to the inherited sin are completely abolished.