Jehovah`s Witness/Richard's Trinity Debunked!


Brother Rando,

Just dropping by and I thought I might send you this little study that I did on Richard's Trinity theory and see if this Three Legged Stool (Triune Godhead - Trinity) that he is sitting on still stands.

Here are the main points of what he said from this post:

<q>"Here is what I have found though.  The people who have deeply studied this concept and still believe in the Trinity agree on some fundamental things. </q>

<q>1) There is one being who is God.  The name of this being is YHWH.</q>
<q>2) YHWH is revealed as three separate and distinct persons.</q>
<q>3) Each of these separate and distinct persons share the same nature, a nature that is completely different than any other beings in the world.  It is the nature of God.</q>
<q>4) The Son is subject to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is subject to both the Father and the Son.</q>

<q>While I am hesitant to say that this is a universally accepted definition, I am not familiar with any well-versed Trinitarians who would disagree with these comments.</q>

Looking at his list, to someone who is not a serious Bible student, it seems to make sense. But if you look closely and analyze it, it's a very confusing doctrine/theory.

Here's what mean:

In Richard's list he said that:

>>1) There is one being who is God.  The name of this being is YHWH.<<  --> This a correct and true statement as it's backed up by the Scriptures here:

Ps. 83:18 and many more...

Thus there's ONLY ONE True God whose name is YHWH - Jehovah! So he got this ONE right.

Unfortunately - from here on it went downhill very fast.

Notice why. He said:

>>2) YHWH is revealed as three separate and distinct persons. <<

Now think about this statement carefully:

Jehovah "YHWH is revealed as three separate and distinct persons."

What does this statement implying? Isn't Trinity?

Yes, it's the Trinity doctrine BUT with a TWIST, that is that "YHWH is revealed as three separate and distinct persons" instead of the usual co-equal or this co-equal that.

Unfortunately (for Richard), by twisting it HIS way, he created problems.

What do I mean?

Here, see the contradiction #2 with list#1?

If list#1 states that :>> "1) There is one being who is God.  The name of this being is YHWH"<<

Then how could Jehovah be "three separate and distinct persons"?

That is, how could:

Jehovah1 = Jehovah God?

Jehovah2 = Jesus Christ?

Jehovah3 = nameless holy spirit?

It can't be because he already said that Jehovah is the ONLY "one being who is God". See what I mean Brother Rando?

Unless he uses the usual unsatisfactory "shut-up" Trinitarian defense, that God is a "MYSTERY", then there's NO clear and satisfactory way of explaining what Richard said.

But, interestingly enough he made an ATTEMPT to explain it anyway, unfortunately, it too failed miserably.

List#3 is his attempt to explain statement #2:

Here's what he said:

List#3 states that >>"3) Each of these separate and distinct persons share the same nature, a nature that is completely different than any other beings in the world.  It is the nature of God."<<

Notice the "bait and switch" word manipulation, word equivocation at work here (not sure if he is even aware of it)!

Richard said:

>>"Each of these separate and distinct persons share the same nature"<<

The words that are getting manipulated here are "separate and distinct persons" and "nature" as if they are one and the same by using the words "share the same".

In other words, what I think Richard was attempting to explain is this:

Since the THREE (Jehovah1/2/3) ONE God "share the same nature" thus "YHWH is revealed as three separate and distinct persons."

In the statement above you might think that he is making sense, but in reality, no. In fact it got worse!

It's much worse because "nature" and "persons" are totally different descriptive words. One describes QUALITY or personality while the other describes a Being, an Entity - a living being.

So if I say Jehovah God is a spirit - I'm describing a quality, what God is. God's nature is spirit.

Just like Jesus Christ who is now a spirit being. Just like the angels who are spirit beings so is Jehovah is a spirit.

Also, if I say God is Love - I'm describing God's personality, his nature.

In contrast:

Jehovah God - is a person

Jesus Christ - is a person

The angel Gabriel - is a person

You are a person.

Richard is a person.

I'm a person.

Now, just because Jesus and Jehovah "share the same nature" it DOES NOT mean that Jehovah is "revealed" as Jesus as express in the "Trinity Godhead" or for that matter "revealed" as the "third" nameless person in the "Trinity Godhead". No, because the angels "share the same nature". In addition, the 144,000 who are taken to heaven to be God and Christ will "share the same nature" - they will become spirit beings.

In addition, since Jesus Christ reflects exactly his Father, thus he has the SAME personality. Both Jehovah and Jesus are loving persons. Both have the same goal and share the same goal - that of saving mankind.  Now, just because Jesus and Jehovah "share the same nature" it DOES NOT mean that Jehovah is "revealed" as Jesus as express in the "Trinity Godhead" or for that matter "revealed" as the "third" nameless person in the "Trinity Godhead". Nope.

In other words - these doesn't prove at all that Jehovah God is a TRINITY, a triune godhead. ONE God "revealed as three separate and distinct persons".

In short the "Trinity Godhead" doesn't exist!

Now, if what Richard really meant by statements 1, 2 and 3 is that Jehovah God (the ONLY ONE TRUE God) is revealed to us through his son Jesus Christ from what he said and did, then it makes sense. It perfectly makes sense because that's what exactly Jesus said and did!

Here's the lord Jesus in is own words:

"16 Jesus, in turn, answered them and said: “What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him who sent me. 17  If anyone desires to do His will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or I speak of my own originality. 18  Whoever speaks of his own originality is seeking his own glory; but whoever seeks the glory of the one who sent him, this one is true and there is no unrighteousness in him." -- John 16-18 (Revise NWT)

Unfortunately, that's not what Richard meant - as a Trinitarian teacher, he meant what he meant, that God is really a Trinity but with a TWIST. A confusing Triune Godhead with a twist.

That is:

A THREE separate and distinct persons but ONE Godhead or One Godhead but revealed as THREE separate and distinct persons.

In either case, it's still confusing.

But it didn't stop there. The confusion continued in the next list.

Richard said:

>>4) The Son is subject to the Father, and the Holy Spirit is subject to both the Father and the Son.<<

In this case I will say that any well-versed Trinitarian would disagree with his comments.

Indeed, since any "well-verse Trinitarians" believes that the Holy Spirit (the third nameless person in the Trinity Godhead) is co-equal with the Father and Son, thus they would disagree.

And I would venture out myself that Richard will even disagree with his own comments above if he really knew the Bible.

For how could the "Holy Spirit is subject to both the Father and the Son" when Jesus himself said the following?

“On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come. ” (Matthew 12:31, 32)

If the holy spirit is lesser than or subject to the Son then WHY is it that one can be FORGIVEN from blaspheming the Son but not the holy spirit?

Again, here's what Jesus said:

[Mat 12:32 KJV] 32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come. "

Did you get that one Brother Rando?

"whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the [world] to come."

Now how could "any well-verse Trinitarians" explain these with all honesty without trickery or word manipulation?

They can't!

But to Jehovah's Witnesses, this is easy! In fact even a 6 year old JW can explain this with ease.

That is, the reason why Jesus said what he said is because the holy spirit is Jehovah's active force. It comes from within him. He used it to create everything - including the Universe. So speaking against it is basically speaking against the very face of Jehovah.

So with these simple analysis Ricahrd's Trinity version falls flat. The three legged stool (Trinity) falls flat.

Side note:

The holy spirit is NOT a person or a Being but God's active force as clearly stated in the Scripture. But the ONLY way to make it into a person is IF one only picks and chooses scriptures that SEEM to imply that IT is a person - rather than a personification of it (this is the tactic that Trinatarians used).

supplemental info:

per•son•i•fi•ca•tion   (p r-s n  -f -k  sh n)
1. The act of personifying.
2. A person or thing typifying a certain quality or idea; an embodiment or exemplification: "He's invisible, a walking personification of the Negative" (Ralph Ellison).
3. A figure of speech in which inanimate objects or abstractions are endowed with human qualities or are represented as possessing human form, as in Hunger sat shivering on the road or Flowers danced about the lawn. Also called prosopopeia.
4. Artistic representation of an abstract quality or idea as a person.

Anyway, it's getting long. I'll stop here and let you speak instead.

Anything to add Brother Rando?

Maybe more on the "Holy Ghost" I mean holy spirit?


Brother E, did I ever tell you that you are "totally awesome"!!  This is better than watching a comedy!!  Here, we have Derrick Holland claiming God is a "three person god" for fourteen long years on the JWForum and Richard blew him out of the water with, "There is one being who is God.  The name of this being is YHWH".

Richard, the JWForum thanks you for that admission.   If you would be so kind Richard, please forward the Trinity doctrine that claims that "the Trinity Being is Named YHWH" and we'll be all set.  Here, I can't find any person of the Trinity being Named nor can I find that the Trinity Being itself has a Name.

If the link doesn't work Richard, you can copy and paste the address into the browser.  What can I add to this Brother E?   There are no pieces of Derrick Holland's three person trinity left!!

LOL~~~~ Laughing Out Loud!
Take Care,
Brother Rando  

Jehovah`s Witness

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Brother Rando


Brother Rando is a student of Prophecy and one of Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing with the Faithful and Discreet slave. His interests are directed towards how the time of the end would come about. The earth’s population today is going through a physical, spiritual and emotional tribulation that has been prophesied concerning a time of distress as it enters into a cleansing period of removing wickedness by means of God’s Kingdom. (Daniel 12:1) Brother Rando’s discussions are of keen interest to many who await for God's Kingdom. He asserts that his discussions are just that, and not Prophecies, nor does he make the claim to be inspired. His authority is the Bible. He proclaims the year 2034 to be of very high interest to all. Like a GPS, that gives Insight to location, 2034 allows us to gauge where we are in the stream of time according to God’s Will. According to Brother Rando, the Bible carries two thoughts in it’s passages, one is fleshy and the other is spiritual. Jesus Christ warned Peter of thinking fleshy and that this type of thinking is not from God. (Matthew 16:23) In order to measure time, a method of measurement is needed. Measuring time by “the day” would mean a 24 hour period. However, measuring “the day” spiritually would mean a period of time yet to be revealed using other scripture to interpret the method needed. By looking into the Bible, we can actually determine what God meant by “the day” when looking into his Word on how his Will would come about. As we read (Genesis 2:16-17) the punishment for disobedience was death “in the day”. As time went on, the scriptures do begin to reveal the time frame of “the day”. According to Genesis 5:5, Adam lived 930 years and then he died. Satan who thinks like a man, got it wrong! (Genesis 3:4-5) Why Study the Bible


In Brother Rando’s research of the Bible, he found scripture does interpret other scripture. The answer to how long a day was, according to God’s Will was found in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. This is vital to gaining understanding in how we are to measure time in God’s view. Spiritually and not fleshy or physical. A day in heavens time is a thousand years to us. It’s by this method we can measure time and where we are in the stream of time of the end. In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Was Jesus indicating that he was the Temple of God, God’s Kingdom? And that the temple would in fact be destroyed or broken down? According to God’s Word, the following scripture is the basis for Salvation. “For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) In order for John 2:19 and Romans 10:9 to come in line, did Jesus utter a prophecy about God's Kingdom since he stated, “I will raise it up”? IF the basis for salvation is that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him up. We can conclude that Jesus did not raise himself up, but it was God that raised him from the dead since he was dead and conscious of nothing at all. (Ecc 9:5) Jesus prophesied that HE would raise God's Kingdom. (Rev 5:10) Jesus was speaking prophetically of raising the temple within the third day of a thousand years. Jesus warned Peter not to think the thoughts of man. (Matthew 16:23) Based on 2 Peter 3:8 we are able to determine the time frame to when God’s Kingdom would be raised up by Jesus Christ. Jesus was put to death on Nisan 14, 33CE. The two days would actually represent two thousand years and we come up with the year 2033. Jesus stated,“in three days I will raise it up.” So the third day is upon us in 2034.

“I fully support, acknowledge and cooperate with *The Faithful Steward and Its' Governing Body* of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” I am property of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" that Jesus, my brother, is appointing over his belongings. This Slave is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Earthly Organization known Worldwide as "Jehovah's Witnesses". When the Mountain-like organizations act against God's chosen people after Babylon has been destroyed, Jehovah will slaughter those who are touching the pupils of his eyes. Even though Babylon the Great is spoken as a woman and she has fallen in (Rev. 14:8), the sacred secret is that she is not a woman at all, but the World of False Religion that will be utterly destroyed by the personal hand of Jesus Christ as (King Abaddon) in the coming Great Tribulation never to be found again! (Matthew 24:14)

Secular Historians point to the Temple in Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. But was Jesus Christ speaking in a physical sense since that Temple is non-existent today? Jehovah Witnesses assert that Jesus under inspiration of Holy Spirit was actually prophesying about his spiritual body as the only means to approach his Heavenly Father. (John 14:6) Not the Temple made by hands or his fleshy body as Christendom claims, but his spiritual body, known as the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:27) This would actually be the Collective Representative of God’s Kingdom in how we can approach the One True God JEHOVAH. Brother Rando is not the first to come up with this time frame. In the first part of 1914, the Bible Students known as International Bible Students Association discussed the “time of trouble” on the printed page called The Bible Students Monthly. Early in 1914, an issue of The Bible Students Monthly was issued with the large bold heading “END OF WORLD IN 1914? Some have quoted the large headline of this tract as proof that Russell was expecting the “end of the world” in 1914. However, such neglect the subheading under the larger headline, which states: “NOT THE VIEW OF PASTOR RUSSELL NOR OF I.B.S.A.” International Bible Students Association: "Nevertheless, when viewed from God’s standpoint, we are still “shortly after” 1914. Although Russell himself did not think the time of trouble would be this long, he did allow that it could be. It is possible that the time allotted for this period is 120 years (1914+120=2034), but that these days will be “cut short” some time before they are allowed to reach their end. We do not put this forth as a “prophecy”, nor would we feel anything was wrong if 2034 came and went and nothing had happened as far the full binding of Satan and the destruction of his empire is concerned. All things are in God’s hands."

According to the discussion, 1914 represents the year that the earth would enter into a time of distress and that time limit could very well be 120 years. Which again, brings up the year 2034. The year 1914 is derived by a prophecy of the end of the Gentile times. Brother Rando insists that we should not live by a date, but to use this time to get right with God. Jesus continually pointed that the people who were on the earth when he would raise God’s Temple would be like those people in Noah’s time, taking no note. Where do the 120 years come from? If we read Genesis 6:3, most people think of this scripture in the fleshy sense of man’s lifespan. But could there be a spiritual meaning, giving those with Insight a divine warning? The Bible does say, “make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end.” (Daniel 12:4) Could it be, this world has entered into it’s Last Days in 1914? (1 Timothy 3:1-5) Yet there is another scripture that helps us measure the time. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 it reads, “Even supposing that he has lived a thousand years twice over and yet he has not seen what is good, is it not to just one place that everyone is going?” The chapter talks about vanity and that if a person actually lived two thousand years without God’s Kingdom we are all heading to the same place. Since death was the punishment, we would need God’s Kingdom to conquer death, the place we all are heading. A thousand years twice over is two thousand years. Simple math again brings us to the time of 2034, when the second thousand years has been brought to it’s finish. Could Christ Millennial reign be from 2034 to 3034? We don’t know. Jesus stated, he would raise God’s Temple in the third day, so we can expect God's Kingdom to be fully operating sometime between the years 2034 and 3034. However, Jesus Christ was risen first thing on the very morning in the third day. Most Bible readers are in agreement that Christ does rule for a thousand years.

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Armageddon is the actual cleansing of the earth from all wickedness. If in the literal sense, it would consist of angels coming down from heaven to bring death to all those rejecting the Kingdom of God. But if it is spiritual, Armageddon could very will take place without the knowledge that it is actually occurring. If this is the case, then Armageddon would commence without the knowledge that the wicked are simply dying off. There seems to be evidence in scripture to how God destroyed the forefather’s in the wilderness. They died off in the wilderness at the hand of the destroyer without knowing of such, as Paul eloquently explains in 1 Corinthians 10:1-10. If.....

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