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Jehovah`s Witness/Now Here's The Truth...When there's a conflict, the Bible is RIGHT, and the "Slave" Is Wrong...Every time!

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Question
Since DW has still refused to correct his own blunder in the following statement....

"Now here's the truth every Bible teaching by the faithful slave is the correct one until the time they tell you otherwise"

then I am going to break this statement down, and show the serious flaws in it.  Although he wants to continue claiming that I am "misleading" people as to his intent, for some reason, he refuses to come on here and tell us exactly what it was he was thinking or trying to say, when he wrote that.  Nor has he renounced the statement.  About all we have gotten from him, is a small admission that it should've been worded better, but we are STILL yet to see it WORDED BETTER.  

All we have, is the way he originally worded it.  So, let's look and think seriously about the implications of this statement.  It is my hope that the readers will consider what this statement says, and if any are contemplating giving their lives to a religion that produces this kind of thinking in its members, that they will prayerfully consider the consequences.  

The truth is found in God's holy, inspired Word, the Bible.  Not in the whims of the "Slave".  And salvation is found ONLY in the shed blood of Jesus Christ.  Not in an Organization, with a "Slave" that can decide upon a whim, if a Bible teaching is correct.

Answer
"Now here's the truth every Bible teaching by the faithful slave is the correct one until the time they tell you otherwise"

What is wrong with the above statement?  Have the words of DW’s above comment, merely been misunderstood, or willfully twisted?  Is there really an intent on my part to “mislead and deceive”, or does the above comment actually SAY that the “Slave” can tell us that a Bible teaching is no longer correct?  Anybody with even average intelligence, can see that it DOES say that.  Now, DW has been protesting a lot here lately, claiming that is not really what he meant, and even admitting on an occasion or two, that he didn’t word the question very well, even after originally chastising a questioner named Adam, for not accepting it.  

However, we have STILL seen no effort to re-word it, or any good explanation from him, as to what he really DID mean.  Also, he was asked point blank if he still stands behind his statement, and he refuses to answer that question, as of this writing.

So, not only do I quote his comment exactly as he wrote it (notice I don’t need to “paraphrase” or change anything about the quote, as DW likes to do), but I will now elaborate on the IMPLICATIONS of this quote.  

And lest anyone want to go to pieces and claim that I am twisting JW doctrine, then DW is welcome to post a reply and do what he has thus far refused to do, and explain or re-word his comment.  Also, I invite any JWs to write me, and explain why they would agree or disagree, with DW’s statement.  I promise that I will not stoop to DW’s level, and reject your question as “Spam”.  I can’t be any more fair than that.

Now, there are about 100 different ways to tear that comment apart, but just read the comment and let it sink in….

“Now here's the truth every Bible teaching by the faithful slave is the correct one until the time they tell you otherwise"

And the worst part is, the man REALLY believes this comment. And in his mind, it seems he doesn't realize that it not only defies logic, but it also CONTRADICTS statements he himself has made about how truth is determined. Let me illustrate, by utilizing quotes from his own writings, since joining the forum here.

Now, once more, notice what he says in the quote above...He is stating that "every Bible teaching by the faithful slave is the correct one, UNTIL THE TIME THEY TELL YOU OTHERWISE".

Until THEY tell you otherwise????  The “they” in the comment, being the “Slave”, which itself seems to have changed its identity within the last year, or so.  I have a suggestion….Rather than waiting for the “Slave” to “tell you otherwise” and then changing with them, perhaps it would be beneficial to stop waffling on WHO the “Slave” even is??

Now, let me point out the first significant problem with this. Notice he said, in HIS OWN WORDS, "every BIBLE teaching". Now, if it is a BIBLE TEACHING, then it is true whether the "slave" teaches it or not, and WILL REMAIN TRUE even if the so-called "slave" tells you otherwise.  The “Slave” is not the final authority…The Bible is.  

And just as DW tells us that “truth is not determined by someone’s character”, neither is it determined by some “Slave’s” pronouncements.

So, strike one....

Is anybody else seeing here what I am seeing? If this is taken to its logical conclusion, then that means the Bible is no longer the final authority, but what the "slave" DECIDES the Bible teaches, is the final authority!! Now, is the "slave" subject to the Bible, or is the Bible subject to the "slave"?  That is the key question here.

Now, an interesting point on this, is that this is an acknowledgment of sorts that the "slave's" teaching can change, but yet, the Bible's teachings NEVER change. So, this would LOGICALLY mean that the "slave" may be, at any given time, teaching something DIFFERENT from what the Bible teaches!!

So, who do we follow....The Bible, or the "slave"?  I asked DW this very question a few days back….Who do we go with, the “Slave” or the Bible, when they are in conflict?  DW didn’t see fit to give us an answer to that question, for some reason.

But wait, I do believe that DW has contradicted himself, from earlier statements. So, let us see whether the man who prides himself on being "logical", is really living up to that.

I quote from some earlier, and quite pointless I might add, statements made by DW, as to HOW WE DETERMINE WHAT IS TRUTH. These are all statements made by DW, in his past answers:


DW: “I stated this time and again a persons character has no bearing on the truth of God's word.”


MY COMMENT: This was a completely worthless and pointless comment that he felt he needed to make, even though nobody ever said that truth WAS determined by a person's character. Still, it was sweet of him to share it with us.

The only reason DW would even bother making a statement like this, is because he is trying to defend his own sorry character in this forum, and rather than change his actions to something more resembling a Christian, he instead attempts to justify himself with this “Don’t worry about how I’m acting, because we have the truth anyway” , mentality.

Anyway, no problem with this statement in and of itself. The fact is, truth is NOT determined by a person’s character.  Many JWs have higher character than DW and Rando….That doesn’t make their doctrines true.  

The problem is, in this context he was making the point that a person's character does not determine Bible truth, but that truth is determined on nothing but what the Bible says.

But now it seems that a religious Organization does determine truth.  So much so, in fact, that they can tell you whether or not a Bible teaching is still correct, or not.

Uhm, but isn't that a contradiction of his own previous statements?


DW: "The truth is found in the scriptures, not in an individuals character.”

MY COMMENTS: Again, a perfectly true and reasonable statement. But NOW, we get this nonsense of "every Bible teaching by the slave is true, until they tell you otherwise"?????

So what can we surmise from this? Evidently, truth is not found in an individual's character, but it IS found in the ever-changing dictates from the Governing Body.

Seems to me, to be a huge contradiction.  Also, its another case of DW SAYING one thing, but practicing another.  


DW: “He's trying to tell people the way a person behaves determines whether they have the truth or not.

THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DETERMINE THE TRUTH!!!!

THIS IS UTTER NONSENSE!!!!!!!!!”


MY COMMENTS: Well, actually the "he" that DW references in this statement, was me, and I said no such thing.  This is simply another one of DW’s “paraphrases”…ie….lies.  No such comment has ever been written by me, or anything even close to it.

But that has already been illustrated, so no need to thump him on that again, unless he brings it back up. The point here is, that DW is now trying to tell people that the pronouncements of the GB, determines truth, and if they change those pronouncements, then the "truth" changes as well.

And to that, I say…"He’s trying to tell people that whatever the so-called “Slave” says, determines truth.

THIS IS NOT HOW YOU DETERMINE THE TRUTH!!!!

THIS IS UTTER NONSENSE!!!!!!!!"

Moving on…..

DW: "THE TRUTH IS IN THE BIBLE'S TEACHINGS, NOWHERE ELSE"

MY COMMENTS: Again, a true statement. The only problem is, he apparently doesn't believe it himself. Because now, it isn't enough that it be a "Bible teaching", because even a "Bible teaching" can change, if the "slave" so deems it necessary.

So again, we must ask the question....Who/What determines Bible truth...the Bible, or the "slave"? The Bible teaching does not change, but apparently the "slave's" teaching can, and does.

So again, we have a problem....Do we change with the "slave" when their "truth" changes, contrary to the Bible, which contains only truth that never changes? Where is our loyalty to be? Do we "move ahead" with the "slave" and leave the Bible sitting in the dust, or do we stay with the Bible, and not be "in step" with the "slave"?

Many have had to make that very choice. They are commonly known as "apostates".

Now, this statement coming next from DW, is the real clincher:


DW: “You can be taught the truth by Jesus himself or you can be taught the truth by Scooby Doo ,it makes not a blind bit of difference, the truth is the truth and salvation depends on your response to the truth."


MY COMMENTS: Huh???? But I thought it DOES matter WHERE we receive the truth! I thought the "slave" was the only one with the right to determine what truth is, or when it needs to change, and we are to change accordingly. But in this above comment, it doesn't matter WHERE we learn it? We can learn it from Jesus Himself, or from Scooby Doo?

Well, unless Scooby Doo is a member of the Governing Body and helps determine "truth", then the above statement is mere fallacy. That is, of course, IF the GB is who determines truth in the first place.

That comment makes me want to ask..."If I learn the truth from Scooby Doo, then can Scooby Doo later on determine that the 'truth' is really something else, and should I adjust my view of truth accordingly?"

But that's not all, for even in this statement, is a comment that "the truth is the truth".

That's exactly correct, DW...The truth IS the truth. And the truth of the Bible will NOT change, EVER, for ANY reason, regardless of what your "slave" decides or determines.

An applicable Scripture here would be....

Ephesians 4:14- "That we [henceforth] be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, [and] cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;"

But it only gets worse, as DW later on tried to defend that statement to the questioner who called him out on it. He wrote....

DW: “There's two reasons people can't accept this comment:

"Now here's the truth every Bible teaching by the faithful slave is the correct one until the time they tell you otherwise"

1)Pride

2)Lack of understanding

Now i'm fully aware people take the stance you take , but the reason being is because your either leaning on your own understanding,not taking notice of Jehovah:"


MY COMMENT: No, there is actually another reason we don't accept it. Its utter nonsense to suggest that Bible truth changes, because men or a group of men decide that it does.

Its BECAUSE we are leaning on Jehovah and the truth of His Word, that we refuse to change when man says so. Why should we lean on the "slave's" understanding, when we can simply lean on the Word of Jehovah? In fact, if the "slave" were really representing Jehovah in the first place, then their "truth" would not change either.

This is even in harmony with what was said by Charles Taze Russell, the very FOUNDER of DW’s religion.  Here is what Mr. Russell had to say, regarding “changing truth” or “new light”.

“If we were following a man undoubtedly it would be different with us; undoubtedly one human idea would contradict another and that which was light one or two or six years ago would be regarded as darkness now: But with God there is no variableness, neither shadow of turning, and so it is with truth; any knowledge or light coming from God must be like its author. A new view of truth never can contradict a former truth. “New light” never extinguishes older “light,” but adds to it. If you were lighting up a building containing seven gas jets you would not extinguish one every time you lighted another, but would add one light to another and they would be in harmony and thus give increase of light: So is it with the light of truth; the true increase is by adding to, not by substituting one for another.” – Zion’s Watch Tower, February 1881.

Yet, DW tells us that the Bible teaching is correct, UNTIL the “Slave” tells you otherwise…The implication being, that when they “tell you otherwise”, then its no longer correct.  

This is in DIRECT contrast to the above quote from the Watchtower’s founder.

DW: "Proverbs 3:

5 Trust in Jehovah with all your heart and do not lean upon your own understanding. 6 In all your ways take notice of him, and he himself will make your paths straight"

Or you just do not want to submit to Jehovah's way of doing things:

Prov 16:

18 "Pride is before a crash, and a haughty spirit before stumbling"

Now listening to who Jehovah has appointed is essential for salvation it always has been.
This is how Jehovah views it.”



MY COMMENTS: Aside from the fact that neither of these Scripture passages says a word about the "slave" determining Bible truth, or having the authority to change Bible truth, there are several problems here.

1. Proverbs 3:5 says "trust in Jehovah" , not "trust in the slave and follow their whims and ever-changing, unstable teachings, when they claim to have received new light on the matter".

To trust in the Bible, means to trust in what NEVER changes.

I cannot emphasize enough the ridiculous nature of the comment that Bible truth can somehow cease to be Bible truth, and that next year, Bible truth might be something entirely different than what it is now, at the discretion of the "slave".

He stated to the questioner "Or you just do not want to submit to Jehovah's way of doing things:"

Actually, the problem isn't submitting to Jehovah‘s way of doing things, for flip-flopping back and forth is NOT Jehovah's way of doing things, and never has been. That is MAN'S way of doing things.

If you have Jehovah's mind on the matter, then you don't need to change.  And if you have the BIBLE teaching on the matter, then you have Jehovah’s mind on it, also.  So, the “Slave” has absolutely NO authority to change that, or to “tell you otherwise”.

And how he managed to take Proverbs 16:18, a verse speaking about pride and haughtiness (much could be said there too), and twist it into making a reference to listening to someone that Jehovah "appointed", is anyone's guess.  It is merely typical of the Scripture twisting that these guys are capable of, and have made a practice of.  Why would anyone want to trust in these clowns to explain the Scriptures to them, in light of the nonsense we have seen in this forum from them?

Actually, it is the height of pride and haughtiness for ANY man, or body of men, to claim that they have the authority to determine Bible truth, and change it when necessary. And it is the height of foolishness to FOLLOW a group of men who think they can do that.

This was Scripture twisting at its worst, to just be perfectly honest and forthright.


DW: “So it doesn't really matter what the opinion of men is on the subject it's the Bibles opinion that I care about and anyone loving truth will feel the same.”

MY COMMENTS: And this guy claims that I “change like the wind”??  Seems he is contradicting himself, in a MAJOR way!  

He contradicts his own earlier statement in the same writing. Now, if I did that, I would be called a "liar". But I will assume that he just didn't realize it, due to the fact that his thinking is more like that of a WT tape recorder, than someone who is thinking logically.

But again, the above comment is true. But also again, he simply doesn't seem consistent in his comment. Here, he tells us that men's opinions don't matter, but only the Bible does. But he has just told us previously that the "Slave" (made up of men, by the way), can CHANGE Bible truth, if they so determine.

Its enough to make your head spin, if you aren't familiar with how these people are conditioned to think.

So, DW complains and denies this is what he is saying, but has failed to show us what he really DOES mean by that comment.  

Here is what he says….“However I did not mean this!!!”

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< an Organization can overthrow a Bible teaching, and tell you it is no longer correct?>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Well, that is sure what you said, isn’t it?  Your comment SAYS that a Bible teaching is correct, UNTIL the “Slave” tells you otherwise….Indicating that the “Slave” CAN, and MAY, tell you “otherwise”, in regards to a Bible teaching being correct.

Hey Dude, don’t blame me for what you wrote.  That’s really childish of you.  Just “man up”, and take responsibility.  You spend too much of your time trying to discredit me, and then proceed to discredit YOURSELF by making foolish statements like that, and then not even bothering to correct it.

Once again, and in summary, DW’s statement implies 3 falsehoods….

1. It implies that truth changes. Meaning, if the teaching is currently taught, then it IS true. Until we decide later it isn’t…and then it isn’t true any more.

God’s truth is not subject to such ridiculous whims.  


2. It implies that the “Slave” somehow determines if a truth is Biblical. They do not. The Bible teaches what it teaches, with or without the help or input from the “slave”.

When the “Slave” is in conflict with the Scriptures, the “Slave” is wrong.  In fact, this is a very good indicator that they are not the “Slave” to begin with.  If DW ever got that one figured out, he might not make such ridiculous statements, and imply that we are supposed to follow the “Slave”, when their identity of the “Slave” as being chosen by God, is dependent on their ADHERENCE TO THE SCRIPTURES!!


3. It implies that the “Slave”, CAN in fact, tell you later on that a BIBLE teaching is no longer true.

I mean, just READ it. Read what the man wrote…that’s exactly what he said.  He can whine and cry all day long, but that IS what he said.  And he has still failed to re-word or correct his statement, and tell us what it SHOULD say.

We're still waiting, DW.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

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High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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