Jehovah`s Witness/Will Eddie NOW Apologize?

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Question
Reading Eddie's "Part 2" of his "analysis", was quite interesting.  Unfortunately, it basically wasn't anything new, but only repeated the same false accusations from the previous day.

In short, his main claim is this...."Holland is lying to people about what we believe about salvation, by claiming that we think that only the select 144,000 are saved."

Funny that he, of all people, would accuse someone of "lying" about his beliefs, since that is all he ever does about our beliefs.

But again....Eddie simply fabricated this accusation, and it was refuted in today's posting, and it will be further refuted in this one.....

Eddie owes the readers a retraction, AND an apology....

Answer
What is really amusing, is to watch Eddie G rant on and on, talking about what he CLAIMS I said about JWs being “saved”.  Especially amusing, is him continuing his habit of shrill, high strung diatribes, where he makes comments such as….

“implying (again) that we, Jehovah's Witnesses believe and teach that ONLY a few "the select" are saved, the 144,000 anointed ones are saved while the vast majority of mankind are not.”

and…..

“SO, to say something like that is in all honesty a lie. It's sad but true. No other reason but that he's simply lying about us.” ….

when it wasn’t even said, and is nothing more than a figment of his imagination.  Wow…I wonder how much time he wasted typing all of his delusional comments, which are based completely on his own distortions, and not anything that was actually said.

But funny, I noticed something else in “Part 2” of Eddie’s rant…..His ONLY disagreement with my representation of his doctrine, was only in what he PERCEIVED that I said, and not in anything that I actually DID say.  

But on the things that I actually DID state (that they deny that Jesus is Mediator for all, and that only the 144,000 are in the New Covenant), Eddie agreed and CONFIRMED every bit of it as true.  

So, what’s his problem, exactly?  Everything I did state, was the truth, and he just confirmed it.  The only thing that WASN’T true, was the part that I didn’t even say to begin with, but that Eddie simply fabricated.  

Now, the board might as well know that I have sent Eddie several quotes from me that are found in my past answers to previous questioners, to show him his error in claiming that I said, or want readers to believe, that “JWs think that only the 144,000 are saved”.  

I have written to him, given him these quotes, and given him the opportunity to retract and apologize for his false accusation.  Having dealt with his lies and sneaky attempts to be dishonest before, I am under no illusion that he will do so.  But either way, the board will see that he is the one who is twisting the comments, and he is only doing himself a favor if he does apologize.  If he doesn’t, then he will be shown as a prideful individual, who is perfectly content to lie, and let the lie stand.

He really has no "wiggle room" here, and he will have no basis for continuing his most recent lie.  If he does, he will only show what he is, and it will reflect on his character....not mine.

I have no idea if he will respond back to me today, or if he won’t.  If he does, his response will post right along side this writing.  If he doesn’t, then the board will know to be watching for his response, to see if Eddie is a man of integrity and truth, or a liar and one who distorts the facts.

Either way, let’s be clear once again….I have never once claimed, nor implied, that JWs think “only 144,000 people are saved”.   I DO claim that they think that only 144,000 are in the New Covenant, and only 144,000 have Christ as their Mediator.  And I also emphatically claim that this is a false doctrine, because NOBODY today is saved, without Christ as their Mediator….Nobody.

Here are the following CLEAR statements written by me in previous answers, that prove that Eddie’s claim is completely false.  The first set of quotes is from the following link, from 5 years ago…..

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2009/5/ransom-theory.htm


This link was not written today, in response to Eddie’s false accusation.  It was written 5 years ago, so it will clearly illustrate that I did NOT say that JWs think “only 144,000 are saved”, as Eddie falsely claimed, nor is there any attempt to lie to the readers as to what JWs really believe..  In fact, these comments will prove quite the opposite.

I quote:

“At any rate, you ask a very good question. If I am understanding you correctly, you are referring to the JW teaching that Jesus is basically a "corresponding" ransom, and also that they believe the average Christian is not in the New Covenant. Is that correct?

The fact is, I have asked many JWs this same question. Although they assure me that their sins are forgiven, they cannot answer as to HOW this occurs. And the problem is in the fact that they believe the New Covenant is only for the 144,000 select ones who will supposedly go to heaven, and not for the rest of the "great crowd" who will live on earth.”

Now here, I clearly pointed out to the questioner, that a JW will say their “sins are forgiven”, which is clearly the opposite of what Eddie claims that I said.

Another quote….

“ The fact is, JWs do not believe that Jesus Christ is their Mediator. Instead, He mediates only for those in the New Covenant ....the 144,000. The only way the average JW can be saved, is to believe in Jesus' death as a corresponding ransom, thereby giving them the OPPORTUNITY to be saved. And if you read the various answers given by JWs on this board, there is no mistaking their stand ....they believe you MUST come to the Organization to be saved. But they do not believe that Jesus is their personal Mediator.”

Not much he can say about that one….Several references here to JWs who are NOT of the 144,000, believing they will be saved….By belief in Christ, AND by adherence to the Organization.  

And Eddie has now confirmed that this is exactly what they believe…And I pointed it out 5 years ago.  

So, tell us again Eddie, how you can claim that I said that you all believe only 144,000 are “saved”?  Seriously, you actually think you have any credibility left now, if you don’t apologize?

Another quote…..

“Isn't it amazing how verse 5 clearly says that Jesus is the ONE Mediator between God and men (not 144,000), and BOTH the verses preceeding and following verse 5 says this is referring to ALL men? God wants ALL men to be saved and come to the truth (v. 4), and Christ was a ransom for ALL men (v. 6). Verse 5 tells us HOW this is accomplished....through Christ's Mediatorship.”

“That is why they have such pressure on them to conform to the idealogies of the Watchtower Organization.

But what good would “conforming to the Organization” do, if they didn’t think it would help “save” them?  

Another one….

“You see, to the average JW hoping to be saved, there is no question that they MUST not only believe that Jesus' blood provides them the opportunity to be saved, but that He also has set up an Organization on earth which is the only true interpreter of the Bible. Of course, that Organization (in their minds) is the Watchtower Society. Its dictates are viewed as coming from God, and to leave this Organization is to place one's self outside of salvation.

I believe this is EXACTLY what Eddie just confirmed in his latest writing….That they believe the Organization is necessary, along with faith.  And that placing one’s self on the outside of the Organization, is to place one’s self outside of salvation.

But I thought he said that I claim they teach that only the 144,000 are saved.  But yet, the above quotes are referring to those who are NOT of the 144,000.

Hmmm…….

Another quote….

And that is how the JWs hope to be saved. I have asked my own mom about being SURE she is saved, and her answer is always that "I believe I am in a saved condition", but not to be "over-confident or presumptous". In other words, there are no guarantees.”

I believe I clearly said here that the JWs “HOPE TO BE SAVED”.  Again, completely contrary to Eddie’s false claim.

Yet another quote….

“Now, a JW is already raising the objection in an "Add-On" to one of my answers from you, stating that they DO believe that they are saved by Jesus' blood and not by works.

I also believe that I acknowledged that they DO say this, but that their beliefs actually imply that works ARE necessary, and that is the end result of following their teachings to their logical conclusion.

Again, clearly acknowledging that ALL JWs hope to be saved….not just the 144,000.

Another quote…..

Case in point, your question…

"If Christ died for ALL your sins, why would anyone need the WTBTS? They need a theory of the atonement that makes the org necessary."

“Very good question, and a good observation. The fact is, while a JW may say that we cannot "earn our salvation", and that the blood of Jesus is the only way to be saved, the fact still remains that they teach the blood of Jesus was a "corresponding ransom" to Adam. That is why the Organization becomes "necessary".

We see a consistent pattern here….What Eddie outlined as necessary for salvation, is EXACTLY what I said they believe is necessary….Faith in Christ, PLUS the Organization.  

So, what is Eddie griping about, again?

Another quote….

“So yes, this implies that joining the Organization is a pre-requisite to salvation, no matter which way you slice it. And the interesting thing is, a couple of the JW volunteers on this board will come right out and admit this, while others deny it.

But notice how it is usually worded very carefully. They will say something like...."Joining an Organization will not save anyone".

Very true. JWs do NOT teach that joining the Organization is a guarantee of anything. HOWEVER, NOT joining at some point is a guarantee of destruction.”

Again….a clear statement that even the “non-anointed” Witnesses believe they have a hope of salvation.

And after sending the above quotes to Eddie, I found yet another one written by me, in another answer….

“1. The JW belief concerning Heaven, is that it is reserved for only 144,000 select individuals, while the rest of saved mankind (faithful JWs) will live forever on a paradise Earth. These with an Earthly destiny are called the “Great Crowd” (Rev. 7:9), or the “other sheep” (John 10:16), and have no hope of ever going to Heaven or seeing God.”

From the link….

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/compare-christiananity-jehovah

Again, Eddie’s accusation that “Holland is willfully lying to the board and saying we believe that one the select 144,000 are saved”, is shown to be completely bogus in the above comment, which plainly shows they believe that “the rest of saved mankind (faithful JWs) will live forever on a paradise Earth.” .  

The only one lying in this discussion, is Eddie.

And he should apologize.

In closing, I am also preparing a rebuttal to his doctrinal confusion about Christ’s role as Mediator.  In a day or two, I am going to post what the Scriptural teaching is on this matter.  Eddie’s comments on this topic, are simply not going to stand up to the scrutiny of God’s Word.  

Stay tuned, and in the meanwhile, let us see if Eddie will retract and apologize for his false accusation against me, when he claims I said that they believe that “only the select 144,000 will be saved“  

He has no choice but to apologize, or harm his credibility even further.

Eddie, you have been shown to have distorted several things now....My claims regarding salvation in JW theology, my identifying the Triune God as "Jehovah", and several more.  

Exactly why should the readers trust anything you say, since you never get your facts correct?  

Jehovah`s Witness

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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