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Jehovah`s Witness/Ms. T's Reply to My Writing To Her....

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Question
I think the latest reply from Ms. T, reveals a number of things about the mentality that 4 JWs here seem to have.  After constantly misquoting you and making false accusations, they claim they are merely "defending Jehovah against slander", "refuting false doctrine", etc.

As has been pointed out many times, you can't "refute" something, unless you correctly state what it is.  Otherwise, you are only attacking a false "straw man"....nothing else.

I gave her a sincere apology for misunderstanding something she had said, and when I asked her for the same, the answer was not quite as sincere.  Several readers have picked up on it, so I am going to comment on it, as well as the false statement that she claims I should "apologize to Jehovah" for.

Answer
JW CONDUCT

There are 4 Witnesses in this forum, who regularly display conduct that is very unbecoming of a Christian.  Such conduct includes, but is not limited to…slander, character attacks, misrepresentations of Christian beliefs, misquotes, invention of false quotes, and lying.  Each of the 4 Witnesses mentioned above, do these things on a regular basis.  Also, each of the 4 Witnesses, constantly complain about these very things being done to them.  

With this in mind, I am going to mention some things about the expert known as “Sister T”, specifically.  

No one doubts her sincerity.  Her judgment is highly questionable.  First of all, ANY person from either side, should be willing to apologize if they intentionally misunderstand or misrepresent someone else’s beliefs, or perhaps a comment made by the other person.  In fact, if it IS unintentional, then the person WOULD apologize.  The only reason they would not, is if it was INTENTIONAL, and done deliberately.  There is no doubt that this is the case much of the time.

In fact, I heard from a JW just yesterday who wrote to me privately, and he felt that Ms. T’s “apology” and response to my writing to her, was a joke.  I concur with this JW completely.  After my writing to Ms. T to correct what I now believe was a misunderstanding on my part, regarding a comment she had made, and even though my initial response was logical due to past statements from her, I still felt it was right to apologize.  I also asked Ms. T a direct question….”If I can show you where you have butchered my comments and misrepresented them as well, will YOU apologize?” .

Her first response was not even close to an answer, but some unrelated Scripture, that had nothing to do with anything we were discussing.  So, I wrote her back, clarifying my question to her.  Her response was quite telling, and can be seen by anybody, in this link….

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/10/ll-happy-ms-t.htm

She wrote….“If you feel that I butchered a few of your comments then I have no problem apologizing but I don't feel that I have. I quoted what you said you believed. I don't agree with what you believe. And since you insist on misrepresenting JW beliefs and at the same time claim to be a JW Expert and putting your beliefs on a forum that's for questions to JW's then you have to expect those beliefs to be refuted….. “So whatever comments I butchered according to you then I apologize. No need to waste your time writing back.”

Now, her “apology” here is a complete joke.  There is nothing sincere about it…no acknowledgment of error, and no desire to even CARE if she got it right, and no desire to learn if she actually did “butcher“ my words, which she did.  Only more excuses as to why it happened.  Her “apology” can be summarized this way, and YES, this is a “paraphrase”.  And it will be the CORRECT usage of paraphrasing….getting the REAL thought behind the words. But here is basically what she is saying….

“Yeah, whatever …. Okay, I will say I apologize, although I don’t really think I owe you one, because I don’t think I distorted anything, but I will say it. And don’t bother writing me back and show the distortions because I’m really not interested in whether I distorted anything or not, because I don’t think you should be here, so its fair game. But I’ll say I apologize, although unlike your admission that you misunderstood me, I don’t really care to know if I misunderstood you or your position”

Again, there is absolutely nothing Christ-like in the attitude above.  Nothing.

Now, what’s odd, is that she actually thinks this is about “refuting” false beliefs.  This shows me that she obviously doesn’t get it.  I have said countless times, that I have no issue with someone responding to, or attempting to “refute”, anything I say that they may think is wrong.  In fact, Ms. T….NOBODY HAS SAID ANYTHING ABOUT THAT.  NOBODY IS EVEN TALKING ABOUT THAT.  We are talking about, as DW puts it....Attacking the messenger, instead of the message.  The only "refutations" I have ever seen of my "message", is your own distorted misunderstanding of what the "message" actually said....not what it really was.

What has been said numerous times, is that you should take the Scriptures, and address whatever you believe needs addressing.  But your personal attacks, and you inability to even get statements correct, does NOT constitute a “refutation”.  Simply saying that something is wrong, and ascribing all sorts of evil motives to that person, is not “refuting” them.  Attacking their character, is not “refuting” them.  Going along with, and encourage those who intentionally post lies, is not “refuting” anything, nor is it truly “standing for” Jehovah God.  You should know that.

Now, another example of something I am always pointing out with these people, is that they have more trouble than any group of people I have ever seen, at getting even SIMPLE details correct.  I have said it before, and I will say it again….It is IMPOSSIBLE to “refute” a person’s statement or belief, if you don’t get the statement correct in the first place.  If all you are refuting is your false CLAIM of what they said, then you have not refuted a thing.  In fact, that is the very definition of “straw man”.  Look it up, Ms. T.

The latest instance, is this statement from her, directed at me….

Ms. T“You haven't apologized to Jehovah or for saying we believe an organization brings salvation yet. I don't need an apology. But when it comes to my God, that's where the apology needs to go.”

Now, this is odd, for many reasons.  The first reason, is that Ms. T is not going to tell DW that he should apologize to Jehovah, for lying and saying we think Jesus is a zombie.  She has not told that blasphemer one time, that he should apologize for his lies.  She has not told Rando that he should apologize, for continuing to repeat his same old lies, that have already been refuted.  I notice Rando has gone back to that one about “Holland claims the Holy Ghost changed His mind in the 16th century”, as I predicted he would, once the dust settled from his pounding the last time he told that one.

I have never once seen Sister T, tell any of these people, that they should apologize to Jehovah for misrepresenting anything….Even though they are disobeying Him, by doing it.

So, we see one aspect of her mindset….Its okay if we misrepresent your beliefs, because they are false anyway.  But since our religion is the truth, it is NOT okay for you to speak against ours, or well will say you‘re lying about it, even if you aren‘t.

Now, another reason this statement of hers is so odd, is what was pointed out above….She didn’t even get the supposed “statement” from me, correct.  She claims that I said that they believe “an organization brings salvation”

See, this is why I no longer believe these distortions are accidental….It simply happens too much, for it to not be intentional.  These people know that, by changing just a word or two, they can completely alter the meaning of the quote, and create a false impression.  At least, that’s their goal, even though its obvious that readers can see it for what it is.  

Here is what I am talking about….

Ms. T:  “>“You haven't apologized to Jehovah or for saying we believe an organization brings salvation yet.”

Well, she’s gonna wait a long time for that one.  Now, I have no problem apologizing for something I DID say.  I see no reason to apologize for something I did not say.  Why should I apologize for a statement that SHE invents?  Like Eddie trying to get me to apologize for something HE invented in his own mind….these people are ridiculous.

Isn’t it just odd, that Ms. T has been writing these “Observations” posts, and GIVING QUOTES and even links, but yet, she didn’t give a quote here?  Hmmm….that’s really odd.

Why not, Ms. T?  Why didn’t you provide the quote where I said that you believe that “an Organization brings salvation” ?

We both know why….That’s not quite what was said.  

Did you just not read what I really said?  I mean, this one has been talked about quite extensively, and yes, even here recently.  Your JW friend Eddie, tried this one, too.  You guys operate the same.  But this one has been clarified pretty extensively.  Yet, you still got it wrong.

So, let’s just go over it again….I did not say that you teach that, coming to the Organization, “brings salvation”, in the sense of it being a guarantee.  Here is what I actually said, and these are recent postings….

ME:  “Several references here to JWs who are NOT of the 144,000, believing they will be saved….By belief in Christ, AND by adherence to the Organization.”

ME:  ““You see, to the average JW hoping to be saved, there is no question that they MUST not only believe that Jesus' blood provides them the opportunity to be saved, but that He also has set up an Organization on earth which is the only true interpreter of the Bible. Of course, that Organization (in their minds) is the Watchtower Society. Its dictates are viewed as coming from God, and to leave this Organization is to place one's self outside of salvation.”

I believe this is EXACTLY what Eddie just confirmed in his latest writing….That they believe the Organization is necessary, along with faith. And that placing one’s self on the outside of the Organization, is to place one’s self outside of salvation.”

ME:  ““So yes, this implies that joining the Organization is a pre-requisite to salvation, no matter which way you slice it. And the interesting thing is, a couple of the JW volunteers on this board will come right out and admit this, while others deny it.

But notice how it is usually worded very carefully. They will say something like...."Joining an Organization will not save anyone".  

Very true. JWs do NOT teach that joining the Organization is a guarantee of anything. HOWEVER, NOT joining at some point is a guarantee of destruction.”

Now, Ms. T, you can rant, rave, and screech all you want to, about how your beliefs are being “lied on”, and “misrepresented”, but it is you who has been caught, YET AGAIN, doing the misrepresenting.  I did not say that you believe that “an Organization brings salvation” ….I said you believe an Organization is necessary FOR salvation, but not a guarantee.

Just a tad different than what you claimed I said, huh?

And object all you want to, but that IS a perfectly ACCURATE and well-documented statement, regarding your beliefs.  So, you can make your accusations of my “lying”, and try to justify all of you and your friend’s wicked and nasty attacks, by claiming that you are just “defending Jehovah from slander”.  Well, nobody is buying it.   

When making an accusation of my lying, you cannot even get the statement correct.  

That being said….You DO teach that it is NECESSARY to come to the Organization, in order to be saved.   Do you now deny that you teach this?   It can be documented by numerous quotes, and I will list a few…..

Here is a quote from you, Ms. T….

“It's good that you are studying and I hope that you will soon come to see that there really is no where else to go if you want to live ….They left because of one thing they did not understand and ultimately lost out on their lives. Jesus asked his apostles if they wanted to leave too, and what was the reply? "Where are we to go, you have the sayings of ever lasting life" There is no other way, there is only one true way.

If you go to another religion, you can not tell me they are living in accordance with all that Jehovah has laid out in the Bible. If they teach that your soul never dies, they get eliminated. If they teach that Jesus is God, they get eliminated. If they teach that you will burn in a fiery hell forever and ever after you die, then they get eliminated. If they OK to send their young to war to kill others, they get eliminated. If they approve of and allow the things that God hates to go on just so they can get more money from the masses, they get eliminated. Who is left? Only one, and that is Jehovah's Witnesses. There is no other truth, there is only one.”


And this recent one from Eddie G….


ED:  “As for the necessity of belonging to an Organization, OF COURSE it's NECESSARY - especially ESPECIALLY when it's God's True Organization - under Christ Jesus!!!

It's like sitting on a Battle Ship with Jehovah God as the Captain and his son Jesus Christ as the 1st officer supported by vast army of angels!!!!

Now what enemy can get through that? Which one of Satan's organization can do battle with God's Organization? NONE, ZIP, ZERO, NADA!!!

Hence belonging to God's Organization is necessary but not primary for gaining salvation.”


and this gem from DW, showing us that not even Christian SONGS not coming from the Organization, are acceptable to God….


DW:   “But I must tell you and you wont like this, but I wouldn't be doing my job here, if I didn't make this clear.

So here goes

When you meet together in your church and you sing to God, you may aswell stand there and sing "five little speckled frogs" A song primary school children sing.

Because Jehovah does not accept praise from false religion, it get's as far as your church ceiling.

If you want to praise Jehovah in song you need to follow these steps.

You need to put on your best running shoes.

Run as fast as you can from here

Rev 18:

2"She has fallen! Babylon the Great(False religion) has fallen"

4 "And I heard another voice out of heaven say: “Get out of her, my people, if YOU do not want to share with her in her sins"

Don't stop until you get here

Micah

4"And it must occur in the final part of the days [that] the mountain of the house of Jehovah will become firmly established above the top of the mountains, and it will certainly be lifted up above the hills; and to it peoples must stream. 2 And many nations will certainly go and say: “Come, YOU people, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will instruct us about his ways, and we will walk in his paths"

Yes it does say Jehovah(YHWH) in that verse.

I'll show you exactly where to start.

Go here

http://www.watchtower.org/

Scroll down to the bottom.

Click on contact us.

Fill in your details and we'll do the rest.

Send me a message when it's done and I'll personally send you a copy of a proper book to sing praises to Jehovah with.”

So Ms. T, are you now denying that you believe that a person must come to the Organization, if they hope to be saved?  Do you now believe they can place their faith in Christ alone and be saved, if they NEVER come to believe the WT Organization is of God?


Now, this post is about the sorry and unchristian conduct from these people.  I wonder just what it takes, to get these people to open their eyes.  Richard giving quotes from their own website, which they tell EVERYONE ELSE to check out, while these 4 don’t even obey what it says, doesn‘t have any effect.  They only tell Richard that he “doesn‘t understand“ the intent.  Unreal.   

Then, there are JWs who are embarrassed about it, and write in asking them to act like they are taught to act….And that falls on deaf ears.

You show them Scripture, and they choose not to obey it.  

People make comments about how their actions only give a BAD impression of the JW religion (you would think THAT one would open their eyes), but nothing changes.

In short, these people have no ability to even figure out the damage they do to their cause.  But one wonders if they even care.

They justify it by claiming that this internet forum is different from going door-to-door.  Well yeah, its obviously different.  But Christian principles of honesty and conduct still apply, no matter what the setting is.  This being a different setting than going door-to-door, has nothing to do with it, and is a cop-out used by them for their sorry behavior.  There is NO setting where you aren’t supposed to be Christ-like, and act according to Scripture, which ALWAYS involves…TELLING THE TRUTH.  Yet, the lies and misrepresentations continue.

In fact, another person wrote Ms. T awhile back, about the deplorable conduct of these experts, and predictably, it fell on deaf ears.  Basically, Ms. T justified the lies, slander, and character attacks, by saying in effect….Derrick is here, so that is why it happens” .  

Implying, that if I weren’t here, they wouldn’t be doing it.  Uhm…You don’t have the right to attack someone, and lie about them, just because they happen to be somewhere you don’t like them being.  I didn’t appreciate the woman driving in the left lane, 10 mph under the speed limit, yapping on her cell phone the other day, either.  I felt she was somewhere she should not be.  But that doesn’t give me the right to lie about her, and claim she is a woman of loose morals, or run her off the road.  

Again, where is the “Christian” attitude at here?  But I will post this link, and some excerpts, which are very revealing…  I encourage all readers to look at this question, and the level of spirituality in this reply from Ms. T.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2013/10/disheartened.htm

From the above link, we read Ms. T saying….

I can understand your being upset by certain things on this site, it would be peaceful and we could answer questions in peace if the critics would go to the critics page for JW's. As long as the critics insist on being here and talking against JW's and spreading their personal beliefs and their religion which is the complete and total opposite of what JW's believe, then it will not be a peaceable place (Matt 10:32-34) It is not JW's, it is the opposers who are in the wrong by their being here. People should tell them to go to the critics page and then the ones who write to them can freely do so over there, but they will not do that.”

There we see it.  Clearly implied here, is this sentiment….“If they just would leave, there might be peace, but as long as they’re here, then there will be NO PEACE!!”

Also, it is implied that the non-JWs here, are somehow keeping them from "answering questions in peace".  This is ridiculous....Nobody here is doing that.  

Then she says it is not the JWs, who are "wrong".  Really?  Its okay for someone to lie, call someone a "wife beater", imply they are a racist, and misquote them.....If they are somewhere you don't think they should be?  Do you have a Scripture that would support this?  Isn't she saying here, that the JW conduct is NOT wrong, because its justified, if they think the "opposers" shouldn't be here?  So, if they are where these 4 "experts" think they shouldn't be, then they are fair game?

In other words, we will continue our unchristian attacks, until the “critics” do what we want them to do.  Well, that’s gonna be a cold day in July!

The questioner was obviously not buying what Ms. T was trying to sell, and wrote back the following TRUE and VERY reasonable comment….

“I am saddened to say this, sister, but your answer was disheartening to me. I mean no disrespect to you, whatsoever, but you more or less "justified" the bad behavior of these Witnesses by agreeing and joining in on the "attack" of Mr. Holland. He may not be your most favorite person, but if he is on this site and not the critics site (as seems to be the main sticking point), isn't that left to the discretion of the site owners? Is Mr. Holland (or any other non Witness) breaking any site rules? If not, then they have a right to be here. People can read freely read the experts bios, and choose whomever they wish to ask a question. Is that not correct? Maybe you should contact the site owners if this against site rules. Everyone is entitled to their viewpoint or opinion. Everyone is entitled to hear that viewpoint or opinion. It is left up to the individual as to whether they accept or not accept what has been presented to them. If Mr. Holland or any non witness makes a statement on this site(or anywhere)you feel is in error or contrast to your viewpoint or opinion, how is that different than what they feel about what you said? I agree with you that everything would be more peaceful if there is only one point of view, but is that really reality? Remember, sister, if you truly have the truth, it should matter not what another says. Lashing out in hatred at another (for whatever reason) is unacceptable. Thank you kindly.”

Then, after Ms. T typing yet another clueless “answer”, with more of her usual misrepresentations, the questioner wrote back a 3rd time, about her support of personal attacks against me.  I quote….

b>“There has to be more respect shown for others and not automatically assume if they differ in what you say they are purposely "misleading" and "deceiving".</b>That thinking is wrong. Maybe what they believe to be true is true to them, just like Jw's believe what is true, is true to them too. One has to have an open mind to really see the truth. Jesus did. There is no moral deception if the true identity of the non witness is clear and made available for someone to see. The reader has the choice. If they want an answer from a Jehovah Witness, they can do so. If they want an answer from a non Witness, they ca do that as well. It matters not where the "expert" is located. That is simply nonsense.”

And Ms. T’s reply?  A few excerpts….

“You replied back very fast, and you did not mention the fact that God is displeased with this type of behavior from the Bible, that was conveniently ignored, nor did you mention how we are attacked...that seems to be OK with you though. So your motives are duly noted.”

You saying that we are taught to hate others because they are not Witnesses is extreme and incorrect, in fact it is an outright lie! And why you would spew such a lie, well it's obvious, people can write me under different names and over and over again and try to make up stuff and lie and twist what I say all they want, but it doesn't work.”

“You do not know me Ms. Jeanie and for you to come on here and tell me what is in my heart and what I've been taught, which you do not see me spewing hate towards any person, is contemptible to say the least, shame on you! What a terrible thing to say and with no proof of it, what a bad way to think about another person!”

“You come on here and complain about us defending our faith and how despicable we are, your comments indicate that you think badly about JW's. What contradictions, what hypocrisy!! I suggest you take your own advice. Get yourself right with God. You don't need to worry about what I'm doing.”

“if you want to disregard what the Bible says, then that's between you and your God.”


So, for DARING to write to Ms. T and say that they should cease with their personal attacks, this questioner was ACCUSED of….

1.  Ignoring the Bible and having bad motives

2.  Being a liar, and twisting things (an odd accusation for a JW here to be making)

3.  Jumping all over the questioner, saying “You don’t know me…Shame on you for presuming to know what is in my heart” .  Again, very odd, since that is exactly what they do.  I don’t think they know either myself or Richard, either.  Yet, they seem perfectly willing to presume to know our hearts.  See the double standard?

4.  Claiming the questioner was saying they should not defend their faith, which was not true.  The questioner said they shouldn’t attack other people’s character.  Nor did the questioner say they were “despicable” for defending their faith…another false accusation.

5.  Being a hypocrite, and not being right with God.

6.  Disregarding the Bible.  No, actually the questioner was wanting them to make their conduct MORE in line with the Bible.

But this goes to show several things….

1.  These 4 “experts” have no problem misquoting you, or willfully giving a false impression to the readers.  If you are viewed as an enemy of God, then you are fair game for lies and attacks.

2.  These 4 “experts” will do the very things they constantly accuse you of doing, and think there is nothing hypocritical about that.

3.  These 4 “experts” will last out and disparage a questioner, for merely thinking they should act more like the Christians they claim to be.  

4.  In short….They talk a good talk about obedience to the Slave, but when it comes right down to it, its just that….talk.

Sorry Ms. T, but these are just a few of MY “observations”.  

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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