Jehovah`s Witness/Bible Tools & Translations (cont'd)
QUESTION: Hello again,
At your suggestion in a dialogue several days ago about the New World Translation I have researched the two people you listed who give favorable opinions about the translation.
For background see original post: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/11/bible-tools-translatio
Dr. Jason BeDuhn is a professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University. Dr. Benjamin Kedar is a Professor of History at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem. That qualifies them to understand & translate ancient biblical languages? I don't see them as being very strong references.
Found this info:
"Yet Dr. BeDuhn makes note, "I am sure you are aware of historical objections to the (re)insertion of `Jehovah' into the translation. Of course, no Greek Gospel manuscripts support this, but I will not quibble with you about that"10 (emphasis added)."
" Dr. Benjamin Kedar also endorses the NWT. He made it clear to the Watchtower, however, that he no longer wishes to answer questions concerning his stance.11 His comments are limited to the Old Testament and are not influential concerning the identity of Jesus. Other names produced by the Watchtower are not names of scholars."
"Perhaps BeDuhn and Kedar are unaware of the lack of credentials that plague this organization's translators. Bill Cetnar explained that of the supposed translators, only F. W. Franz, fourth president of the Watchtower, had any schooling in this area, and his abilities to translate were proven inadequate in a Scottish Court in November 1954.12"
for the statements above.
Quotations from BeDuhn & Kedar as well as many others can be found at the bottom of the article on Wikipedia:
I noticed you mentioned "our NWT". Meaning no one but the JW organization uses it? Two other religions who have their own bible immediately come to mind: The Mormons (Book of Mormon) founded by Joseph Smith and Islam (The Koran) founded by Mohammed. What do these religions have in common? Unlike orthodox Christianity they do not believe in the deity of Christ.
Regarding my question about how many Greek scholars belong to the Jehovah's Witness organization:
I would think if a Greek scholar approves of the NWT, believes the JW doctrine & becomes a baptized member, he and the organization would be more than eager to publish that fact. What better marketing tool?
Thank you for volunteering to answer questions about the JW organization.
ANSWER: Hello Jay,
I already responded to this, All Experts has been acting funny. This is revised.....
But at any rate, like I mentioned before, man made credentials really hold no weight. Those quotes just really prove the limited knowledge that these so called scholars claim to have. JW's did not "insert" Jehovah's name in the Greek Scriptures, it was removed by apostates and evil ones who do not want anyone to use or know God's name. Satan doesn't want anyone to know and use God's name. Satan continues to blind the minds of people (2 Cor. 4:4). We put it back or restored it to where it rightfully belonged and was at in the first place!
I appreciate you trying very hard to prove some kind of point and doing research, quoting from ones who say our translators were proven inadequate in a Scottish court, or that they are plagued by lack of credentials. By what and whose standards are these statements made? By mere men who feel that you have to have a certain credential to qualify as a translator? Who's to say their qualifications are up to par or are the only ones that count? Who's to say their standards about credentials are even creditable? All that amounts to is a hill of beans! That's like a person who learned how to swim by his brother in the pond next to his house, but someone comes along and tells him "oh you don't know how to swim because you didn't learn to swim at the high school by a professional teacher." ahhhh but he does know how to swim, and very good at that!
If Jehovah's name wasn't supposed to be in the Greek scriptures at all, period, as these so called scholars claim we inserted it, and it was originally supposed to be Kyrios (Lord) then you need to start doing some major letter writing to ALL the Bible translators whose so called scholars with tons of man-made credentials who you look up to mistakenly or unknowingly forgot that Hallelujah (Hebrew word), (Greek=Alleluia) means Praise Jah or Praise Jehovah you people! Jah is short for Jehovah! If God's name was never meant to be in the Greek scriptures but rather Kyrios (Lord), then those verses should read Hallelu-Kyrios or Allelu-Kyrios. ahhhh but it doesn't.
Why is that name in the Greek scriptures, maybe they thought no one would notice? Or maybe they thought that people were too ignorant to realize it? See when people try to be deceitful and evil and take things out and add things in the Bible to try to prove their own beliefs like the lie that is the Trinity, or remove God's name from Greek translations replacing it with a mere insignificant title such as Lord, (Kyrios) they always make mistakes and forget many things that prove otherwise and make their so called scholarly credentials look like a patch from a cereal box.
Rev. 19:1 (KJV) "And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia;..."
Rev. 19:1 (NASB) "After these things I heard something like a loud voice of a great multitude in heaven, saying,“Hallelujah!..."
Rev. 19:1 (NET) "After these things I heard what sounded like the loud voice of a vast throng in heaven, saying, “Hallelujah!..."
Rev. 19:1 (NIV) "After this I heard what sounded like the roar of a great multitude in heaven shouting: “Hallelujah!.."
Again, imperfect mere man who also have imperfect man-made credentials mean nothing! God's name is Jehovah whether you or any person, including any and all scholars, reject it. Their personal opinions about why they feel God's name shouldn't be in the Bible really holds no water.
These same type of scholars who you depend on for your very life it seems also teach evolution instead of attributing creation to Jehovah God. And they feel it's fine that these translators add verses that cause the Bible to contradict itself. People who want to say Jesus is Almighty God and say God came in the flesh, this is incorrect Jay and completely false. Scripture interprets scripture, other Bible verses do not harmonize with that false teaching.
When they change and add to the Bible then they have caused people such as yourself to be misled.
Satan's world and his scholars debate about John 1:1 til this day, they do not even agree on that. So you need to tread lightly on accepting as fact that which is not fact. If Jesus were Almighty God, how can he also be with God. The same person who penned John 1:1 also penned John 1:18 that says, "NO MAN HAS SEEN GOD AT ANY TIME!" If Jesus is God and became flesh and was walking around on the earth for 33 1/2 years, tons of people saw him. Yet the false belief is taught that Jesus was still fully God when he was also fully man. Can you see how your belief contradicts the Bible itself? Maybe you do or maybe you don't, but it does!
Seriously, forget about your disdain of JW's for a minute, and focus strictly on the Bible, and look at other translations too. Your belief contradicts the Bible. If you are truly a person who loves God then you need to really ask yourself why do you go along with something that is in complete contrast with what the Bible teaches and says!
As pointed out in Bro. Rando's post, even people's names from the Bible have Jehovah in their meanings. The name Jehovah was also in the Greek Scriptures. Just because it was removed by people and replaced by Kyrios (Lord) doesn't mean it wasn't there.
These same type of scholars who you rely on will say that no one knew God's name Jehovah before the scripture with Moses in Exodus 6:3 (KJV) "And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them."
But with their all knowing scholarly wisdom many failed to realize that Moses' own mother's name, Jochebed means "Jehovah is Glory"
But they do not have wisdom from above to understand what that scripture actually meant.
Jehovah is God's name forever! He has ONE name, not two and three or thousands. Just one, which is Jehovah!
Exodus 3:15 (NWT) "Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation."
During the time of the apostles, ones such as yourself, were all into credentials, yet Jehovah used these very ones who were uneducated and ordinary men to pen the Bible:
Acts 4:13 "Now when they saw the outspokenness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were uneducated and ordinary men,..."
But as the Greeks did you look to the wisdom of this world instead of looking to God.
1 Cor. 1:22 "For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; "
1 Cor. 1: 19-21 "For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing."
The wisdom and knowledge to understand his Word the Bible comes only from God, not from man-made credentials!
Matt 11:25 "At that time Jesus said in response: “I publicly praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and intellectual ones and have revealed them to young children."
1 Cor. 1:26-31 "For you see his calling of you, brothers, that there are not many wise in a fleshly way, not many powerful, not many of noble birth, 27 but God chose the foolish things of the world to put the wise men to shame; and God chose the weak things of the world to put the strong things to shame; 28 and God chose the insignificant things of the world and the things looked down on, the things that are not, to bring to nothing the things that are, 29 so that no one might boast in the sight of God. 30 But it is due to him that you are in union with Christ Jesus, who has become to us wisdom from God, also righteousness and sanctification and release by ransom, 31 so that it may be just as it is written: “The one who boasts, let him boast in Jehovah.”
Where did the ones who translated the NWT get their credentials from you ask? They got their credentials from Jehovah God, no man-made credentials can ever compare to that. Jehovah is the one who created all things including the different languages.
Prov 2:6 "For Jehovah himself gives wisdom; From his mouth come knowledge and discernment."
Prov 2:3-5 "Moreover, if you call out for understanding And raise your voice for discernment; 4 If you keep seeking for it as for silver, And you keep searching for it as for hidden treasures; 5 Then you will understand the fear of Jehovah, And you will find the knowledge of God."
1 Cor. 3:19-23 "For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.” 20 And again: “Jehovah knows that the reasonings of the wise men are futile.” 21 Hence let no one be boasting in men; for all things belong to YOU, 22 whether Paul or A·pol′los or Ce′phas or the world or life or death or things now here or things to come, all things belong to YOU; 23 in turn YOU belong to Christ; Christ, in turn, belongs to God."
When Jesus was on earth, he asked his disciples who were people saying he was....notice that not one person thought he was Jehovah, Almighty God in the flesh, God incarnate, and even Peter said he was the Christ the Son of the living God, not one time did he say you are God in the flesh etc. No, because they knew he was not God in the flesh. Jesus let him know that it wasn't any mere man who revealed that to Peter but it was his Father who was in the heavens.
Matt 16:13-17 "Now when he had come into the parts of Caes·a·re′a Phi·lip′pi, Jesus went asking his disciples: “Who are men saying the Son of man is?” 14 They said: “Some say John the Baptist, others E·li′jah, still others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.” 15 He said to them: “YOU, though, who do YOU say I am?” 16 In answer Simon Peter said: “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” 17 In response Jesus said to him: “Happy you are, Simon son of Jo′nah, because flesh and blood did not reveal [it] to you, but my Father who is in the heavens did. "
What you also have to remember Jay, is that people before Jesus came to earth were already worshipping Jehovah, that's all they knew! So when Jesus came along they had to be taught that Jesus was Jehovah's means of salvation and to accept Jesus as part of Jehovah's purpose for restoring mankind back from what Adam had lost. Some Jews rejected Jesus. Jesus was emphasized in the Greek scriptures because this meant their salvation. But at no time should acceptance of Jesus ever replace what which was already in place and will never change, which is the worshipping of Jehovah the Almighty God! This is way Jesus returns the Kingdom to his God and Father Jehovah after his reign is over!
1 Cor. 15:22-26 (NWT) "For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each one in his own proper order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who belong to the Christ during his presence. 24 Next, the end, when he hands over the Kingdom to his God and Father, when he has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. 25 For he must rule as king until God has put all enemies under his feet. 26 And the last enemy, death, is to be brought to nothing."
There is no way on the face of this earth that so called Hebrew/Greek scholars who are imperfect men who have their own opinions, which may or may not coincide with the Bible can over ride Jehovah's wisdom that he gives! They can't even agree themselves on their theories.
Daniel 12:10 "Many will cleanse themselves and whiten themselves and will be refined. And the wicked ones will act wickedly, and none of the wicked will understand; but those having insight will understand."
You can also read this:
And also it's of importance to note JW's are nothing like Churches! A person cannot just join, a person has to be drawn by Jehovah God himself in order to even get the sense of anything....as Jesus said: John 6:44 "No man can come to me unless the Father, who sent me, draws him" We are not merely trying to turn people into JW's to see how many people we can convert. So there is really no need for us to have any so called Marketing tool regarding how many Hebrew scholars and Greek scholars are JW's. We aren't out to promote individuals we are promoting Jehovah God and the King of his Kingdom, Jesus Christ so people can have a chance to live and be happy on a peaceful paradise earth! (Ps 37:29) For your coming to know the truth about God means your very life, don't lose your life because of hatred! (John 17:3)
As I mentioned before JW's are hated the world over, this site is a tiny fraction of proof of that fact, but it doesn't change that some scholars have said the NWT is accurate. But they also do not believe what JW's believe. And because this world is ruled by Satan I'm sure they are probably hounded because they did say this and we used their quote and they probably want nothing to do with us, as we expose false religion along with evolution, and any other lies against our God Jehovah and his anointed One Jesus Christ! And they're probably attacked like you all attack us thinking you are doing something when it's really very sad for you, very sad indeed! If he said it was accurate, just because he doesn't agree with our beliefs, doesn't erase what he said. He said it, we didn't make it up, he wasn't forced to say it. He did that on his own, but when he did it, he probably didn't expect the satanic backlash he received for doing so.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: "Sister T",
With the recent AllExperts glitch resulting in our two exchanges being delayed and your revision of one of your responses, it will not be easy putting all this back into focus.
To begin with you gave me names of two scholars who were favorable to the NWT. Upon finding out that neither have studied Greek or Hebrew (and therefore their opinion was a personal opinion and not an educated opinion) you said their personal opinions do not change their admittance of the accuracy of the NWT.
When you first gave me their names it certainly appeared that you felt their opinions carried some weight. Now you say man-made credentials hold no weight. Which is it, "Sister T"?
You say "By what and whose standards are these statements made? By mere men who feel that you have to have a certain credential to qualify as a translator? Who's to say their qualifications are up to par or are the only ones that count? Who's to say their standards about credentials are even creditable? All that amounts to is a hill of beans!" ~~Seems obvious to me that the surefire standard of credibility would be the ability to speak, read and translate the language in question.
You say "Where did the ones who translated the NWT get their credentials from you ask?" ~~I didn't ask that. I wanted to know what their credentials are. What, not where. "What" meaning do they have proven ability to translate.
You say "These same type of scholars who you depend on for your very life it seems also teach evolution instead of attributing creation to Jehovah God." ~~Excuse me. Where did that come from? I don't depend on scholars for my very life. What a weird thing to say or even think. Don't attribute something to me that I've never said.
My question was about the NWT so I'll just skip over the unrelated topics you have injected into the dialogue. One subject at a time. Don't muddy the water.
You say "Seriously, forget about your disdain of JW's for a minute, and focus strictly on the Bible, and look at other translations too." ~~It might surprise
you to know that at last count I have 22 versions of the Bible, 7 versions of the New Testament which aren't in the 22 complete versions, plus The Book of MOrmon, The Quran and NWT. I have several more to add to the list since that count. So don't go implying I am close-minded. Can you tell me how many versions of the Bible you have?
Can you say you focus strictly on the Bible? At my suggestion, I attended Kingdom Hall with a dear acquaintance one Sunday morning. After the first 30-45 minutes of what I would call a business meeting, she grabbed her purse & hustled me out of the building as if the fire alarm had gone off. Later I realized she didn't want me to know it was the latest Watchtower they would be studying.
You say "If he said it was accurate, just because he doesn't agree with our beliefs, doesn't erase what he said. He said it, we didn't make it up, he wasn't forced to say it." ~~I think you're referring to BeDuhn, and the point you don't seem to understand is: 'that it was accurate' was a personal opinion not an educated opinion... since he didn't have the credentials to make it an educated opinion. And you yourself said "Their personal opinions about why they feel God's name shouldn't be in the Bible really holds no water."
In the beginning of our dialogue on this subject you say: "You and I both know you aren't really interested in learning." ~~Isn't that a bit presumptious of you? Do you have the ability to know my thoughts & motives? I think not. If I didn't want to learn, I wouldn't ask questions. If I didn't want to learn my bookshelves wouldn't be overflowing.
ANSWER: Hello Jay,
Yes, I can see you are very confused and do not understand what I've said for some reason. And for some unknown reason to me you also get the incorrect meanings behind what I say, and you do this every single time. Now I don't know you personally so I don't know if you do this on purpose or if you have some type of problem with understanding. That is not meant as putting you down, but you do it time and time again.
You initially asked me Jay what were the credentials of the ones who translated the NWT, so my response was in regard to that question, not in regard to the two people who I listed as saying that the NWT was accurate. I also said those ones also do not agree with our beliefs. So their opinions about why they feel that God's name shouldn't be in the Greek scriptures doesn't matter to me. I gave the two scholars for your benefit, not mine. I don't care what they or anyone else has to say about the NWT.
You are the one all into man-made credentials, not I. Since scholars are your hang up, I gave you two who said it was accurate. Are you able to understand that?
Jay, you obviously don't understand many things that I've stated...I'm sorry that you just don't get it. I don't know how to help you understand what I'm saying. Many of my statements obviously go right over your head, I will try harder to make it easier for you to understand.
That's good that you have 22 Bibles, then why ask me the question about the NWT being a book like the Mormon or Quaran when you should know that it's not since you have many Bibles to compare to? See your questions just don't add up, why ask things you already know the answer to unless you have some type of ulterior motives.
I mainly use the NWT Bible, although I don't collect Bibles, I do have a few different versions. But I mostly look up different versions online that are readily available.
Jay, I put a lot of scriptures into my reply from the Bible, so why ask if I can focus strictly on the Bible? Our publications also focus strictly on the Bible as well, that's why they have Bible scriptures to back up what is said.
Well I don't know your friend or the full story, is your friend a JW? And if it was at your suggestion to go, why would she hustle you out? And if she is a JW, why would she have a problem with the study of the Watchtower? Something doesn't add up there. But I don't know the full story. A true JW knows what to expect at each meeting so there is more to that story then you are saying.
Everything that is in the Watchtower magazine is backed up with tons and tons of scriptures from the Bible that you can look up for yourself. As far as it being a business meeting? I don't know why you would view it as such...but that's your opinion.
Let me rephrase so you can hopefully understand better, not sure if you will or not, but your continued attacks against our beliefs that you write in about SHOWS that you are not interested in learning the truth about JW's beliefs.
A person who is interested in learning our beliefs doesn't make the statements and remarks that you have made, a person who is interested in learning our beliefs does not attack our beliefs on a constant basis as you do. So no it's not a bit presumptuous of me to say that.
You may want to learn, you just don't want to learn the truth about Jehovah and JW's, and once you know that is God's name you shouldn't have a problem with it being in the Bible as you seem to have.
I'll tell you what you can do, write in and ask them what their credentials are since that is of the utmost importance to you.
Good day Jay
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hello "Sister T",
You say: "You initially asked me Jay what were the credentials of the ones who translated the NWT, so my response was in regard to that question, not in regard to the two people who I listed as saying that the NWT was accurate."
~~~How can you separate the two things? You can't respond to a question about credentials and not say something about the two scholars in question. Their background, their statements, etc. If credentials don't matter, why did you even list the two scholars? You must have felt their names carried some kind of weight. After researching the names I told you my findings. You then tell me you don't care, credentials don't amount to a hill of beans. Isn't that like saying "Don't try to confuse me with facts"? You also say 'so their opinions don't matter to me' (paraphrasing... go back & read it if you think I am twisting what you say). You also say: "I don't care what they or anyone else has to say about the NWT."
~~ Then again, why did bother to share the two scholars' names with me? You could have just said upfront: 'credentials prove nothing' which is what you finally said in the end.
You claim I'm into credentials. It's not that... it was your giving the two scholars names as if to make a point, and then when I reported what my reseach revealed you say in so many words 'what difference does it make what anybody says? If I don't agree with it I refuse to accept it'. "Sister T", I would think anyone who loves truth would verify, verify, verify and not just accept any & everything.
You say: "why ask me the question about the NWT being a book like the Mormon or Quaran when you should know that it's not since you have many Bibles to compare to?"
~~"Sister T", you mentioned 'our NWT'. I found your choice of words interesting. I pointed out other religions with 'their own Bible' and one of their commonalities. It's not an uncommon practice to ask someone a question whose answer is self-evident. Example: Instead of saying 'Elephants can't fly' one says "Can elephants fly?" not expecting an answer because the answer it is self-evident. I didn't ask that question with any expectation of getting an answer & see it as more of a comment.
You say: "See your questions just don't add up, why ask things you already know the answer to unless you have some type of ulterior motives."
~~Give me an example of questions I've asked which you believe I already know the answer to... other than the one I just explained. Isn't asking questions the easiest way to find out something you have no knowledge about? If you do have knowledge about something you ask questions of others in order to compare or share your knowledge. You are then able subtract or add to your knowledge. ~~~ I ask questions because I value a relationship I have with a JW. Not wishing the two of us to become alienated, this forum is an opportunity to find out what my acquaintance believes and why. And isn't that why you are on this forum? To answer questions about the JW organisation. Have I respond with anything like "well, I don't believe that or that's not true."? Or did I insert my own personal religious beliefs into this dialogue? No.
You say, "Well I don't know your friend or the full story, is your friend a JW? And if it was at your suggestion to go, why would she hustle you out? And if she is a JW, why would she have a problem with the study of the Watchtower? Something doesn't add up there. But I don't know the full story. A true JW knows what to expect at each meeting so there is more to that story then you are saying."
~~Yes, my acquaintance is a JW. And being a JW she would certainly have known what to expect. That's my point. Why did she want to leave before the "Bible Study'? Can't think of a reason unless she didn't want me to see first hand how JW's study the bible. Why would she have a problem with the study of the Watchtower? Exactly! I'm thinking it was because of my presence there. I left nothing out. I suggested we attend KH that Sunday because I knew she would not go with me to my place of worship since I've been told a Witness is warned about that.
You say: "Let me rephrase so you can hopefully understand better, not sure if you will or not, but your continued attacks against our beliefs that you write in about SHOWS that you are not interested in learning the truth about JW's beliefs." And "A person who is interested in learning our beliefs doesn't make the statements and remarks that you have made, a person who is interested in learning our beliefs does not attack our beliefs on a constant basis as you do." And "You may want to learn, you just don't want to learn the truth about Jehovah and JW's, and once you know that is God's name you shouldn't have a problem with it being in the Bible as you seem to have."
~~Again, this is changing the subject but since you keep coming back to it: You seem to think I have a problem with God's name being in the Bible, Your assumption is incorrect. I have never been taught nor do I refuse to acknowledge that God's name is Jehovah. I can read. And my pastor frequently refers to Jehovah. We sing songs about Jehovah.
~~Why do you consider someone asking questions & clarification of your answers to be an attack. How else can one know & understand the basis of the WTBS' beliefs? And isn't that what you volunteered to do, answer questions?
Thanks for your reply, but I'm not going to debate with you Jay, if you have a Bible question ask it, otherwise, I'm not going to go back and forth because we will not agree and you don't seem to understand the things I say, you don't know my mind set and I certainly do not know yours. You have written in to others with your condemnatory remarks, I will not go searching for them, that's just not going to happen.
I'll address about your friend who you claim is a JW. Her actions do not add up to her being a real baptized active JW. Why don't you ask her all the questions you have regarding JW's? That's very weird and odd that you have to come on here when you could go to her if she is truly a JW. But I will leave that alone.
But you do know you are free to go to the Kingdom Hall and find out for yourself what our meetings are like or about, it's free to the public and no collections are taken, we have nothing to hide.
I also put the link for you to write in and ask about your credential inquiries.
I do not accept any and everything either, especially things that make no sense whatsoever. That's why I do not believe in the Trinity lie, the hellfire lie, the everyone has an immortal soul lie. As the Bible does not teach that. It's good you do not have a problem with God's one and only name Jehovah. I hope you use it Jay.
Here's a video about what goes on at the Kingdom Hall.
Have a good day...