You are here:

Jehovah`s Witness/Address To The False Comments From Sister T....

Advertisement


Question
This post is to address several comments from Ms. T, that can only be described as ridiculous, and cult brainwashing at its worst.  She said a few weeks back, that she was wrong for replying to our posts and that she would no longer be doing so.  Evidently, this did not include continuing to lie about us, however.  Guess that’s still okay, as long as she doesn’t respond to us directly.  

I am quite certain that she will, after reading this, resort to the same old “I’m being attacked” , comment.  No Ma’am, you’re being addressed for false statements.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Nothing personal….just the facts.

Ms. T seems to feel the need to berate her questioners, who don’t automatically accept that what she tells them, is the truth or the whole story.  As Jay was told, in effect, “You just don’t get it” , and then Linda was ridiculous told that she was “fulfilling Bible prophecy”.  

I quote….  

“I knew when I signed up for this site that people like you would be around. It's expected Linda, all you're doing is proving us right by fulling Bible prophecy.”

Exactly what prophecy Linda was fulfilling, by writing to Ms. T with a legitimate question, was not explained, unfortunately.  I would like to see that prophecy, though.  I really would.  

At any rate, this was an attempt to berate her questioner….Ms. T signs up for this board to answer questions about her religion, then tells the questioner who challenges her, that they are “fulfilling Bible prophecy”.  Amazing.

Ms. T has also informed us that it is a fulfillment of Bible prophecy, for non-Witnesses to be on this forum, even though we give factually correct answers, unlike 3 of the JW experts here.  Again, I would like to know which prophecy this is fulfilling.

I notice on the Catholic, Mormon, and 7th Day Adventist forums, there are experts there, who also are not practicing members of that religion, and who don’t agree with it, either.  I wonder if Ms. T thinks THEY are “fulfilling Bible prophecy”, as well?  Or, does that just apply to THIS forum?

Regardless, what follows, is an address to some of the outlandish and outright false comments, made by Ms. T, in her reply to Christaras.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/11/cant-find-dw-list.htm

See comments below….

Answer
MS. T:  “Yes, Brother DW has left All Experts. It is disgusting that people are on this forum that is set up for questions to JW's and they are not JW's but are JW Critics.”

Not much point in spending any more time debunking this completely false statement, as there is nothing in any of the guidelines of this forum, that state this category is only for questions TO JWs.  Nothing.  This is simply one of those lies that Ms. T enjoys hearing herself repeat.

It has been dealt with quite thoroughly, even by posting the rules and regulations set forth by the very creators of this site, who ALONE, have the right to decide what the forum is for.  Its sort of amusing to watch Ms. T think that she somehow has the right to decide the purpose of this forum, as she had no hand at all in setting it up, and has no role in moderating it.  She is merely a volunteer here, and I might add, one that herself does not adhere to the guidelines of this forum.  

But hey, Ms. T….If you just keep repeating this, say maybe 15-20 more times, maybe it will become true.


MS. T:  “That's why there is a critics page so that people can go there and complain. The obsession with us is demonic.”

Now, it is amazing how she can talk about “obsession”, with a straight face.  The hypocrisy here, is quite obvious.  I don’t think there are 10 honest readers out there, who have any question about who here is “obsessed” with whom.  All one has to do, is read the personal and false attacks.  All one has to do, is see who deals with fact and calls for TRUTH to be told, and who resorts to lies and slander.  Their fascination with me, has given the word "obsession", new meaning.

So, if “obsession’ is demonic, then these people are full of demons.  Numerous readers have noticed, and written in, as to how obsessed they are with me.  

“Obsession” is when someone lies, and tries to imply that you are a racist, or a sexual predator, and then claims you are a Freemason....Having no evidence for any of it, but merely writing it in the desperate hope of discrediting you, for the truth you speak.  

If Mr. Rando, Eddie, or Ms. T has any evidence that I am any of those things, then by all means, why don’t you post your proof?  Why lie, and not back it up?  

Now, Ms. T will protest that she has not posted those things.  Maybe not, but she certainly supports the person who DOES post them.  In fact, her very post that I am addressing, claims outright that I am not being attacked, and am lying for claiming that I am.  So, apparently she is giving her support to those statements, and affirming them as true.  Otherwise, she would not support those making them.  She doesn’t speak up and say that perhaps they should stick to the issues, instead of lying about people.  And Ms. T herself feels free to distort my statements, in an attempt to completely change the meaning of them, so that she can claim a “lie” has been told.

This woman herself once made the statement that she would NEVER be party to anything that is false.  Well, talk is cheap.  It’s a great statement, but unfortunately, her actions disprove her own statement.  Not only does she make false statements herself, she IS a party to it, when she aligns herself with, and defends people who have been caught in lies time and time again, all because they wear the JW label.

And the very man that she is lamenting about leaving this board, has also been caught several times, making false statements that he was unable an unwilling to back up, with even ONE quote to verify it.  But hey, its okay if THEY lie, because they wear the JW label.  

Its necessary to understand the twisted mindset of this small group of Witnesses….If you lie, but are a JW, then your lying will be overlooked.  In fact, you’re not a liar, even if you lie….as long as you’re a JW, defending the Organization.  

On the other hand, as a NON-JW expert, you may do your research and do everything you can to make SURE that you have your facts straight before printing an answer, give completely verifiable and documented information, but even if you tell the complete truth, you are a “liar”, if your answers are not favorable to the Watchtower Society.

That is the mindset these people operate under.

One of the greatest examples of the above fact that we have seen as of late, is the topic of 1874.  Now, its sort of amusing to watch them complain about how us “wicked apostate demons search through all of the old literature that we can find, just to get something to use against them” , evidently not having the sense to realize that the entire topic of 1874 never even had to happen, had A JW not decided to make an issue of it.  The 1874 debacle started because I made one simple passing reference to the fact they used to teach it, and nothing else WOULD have been said about it, except that foolish Rando decided to jump on it and claim I was “lying” about it.  

So, I did what any person who is accused of lying, should do….I provided documentation and evidence that I was correct, and Rando was wrong.  Even Ms. T and Eddie have had to grudgingly ADMIT that I was correct about it.  But funny….I was the one lying, even though my comment was factually correct.  

Ms. T, who says she would NEVER be part of anything that is false, did not see fit to correct Rando on his lying about the history of their religion, but still accuses the non-Witnesses here of “lying”, when WE gave the factually correct answer.

Again….Never showing an actual lie from us, but hoping that if she just repeats the same accusation over and over, that the readers will for it.  I don't think its working, Ms. T.

Something tells me that neither Eddie, Ms. T, nor Rando, would EVER tell an honest questioner who wanted to know their religion’s history, about 1874 or the other false dates in this religion’s history.  And when non-Witnesses give the whole picture, we are “liars”.

Is it any real mystery, as to why they don’t want us here, and launch their wicked personal attacks against us?  Not really that hard to figure out, is it?

But the only real “lies” they can ever come up with, are distortions of our statements that they themselves twisted, just to MAKE the statement appear to be a lie.

Simple truth here, Ms. T….A person is not lying, when YOU have to re-word their statement, just to make it into a lie.  That is YOU lying, not them.  If a lie was being told, then you would have no problem posting the statement that was a lie.  But for some odd reason, you have a terrible time with that.  But if the statement as its written is a lie, then why the need to RE-WORD it?  Why not just leave it as it was written, and post it?

DW always liked to claim he was “paraphrasing”.  Funny….If a person is LYING, why would he need to “paraphrase”?  Why not just post their lie, exactly as it was written?

Again, this isn’t rocket science, and doesn’t require much intelligence to figure out.  And they expect thinking and intelligent people, to believe that nonsense.

Ms. T, this post of yours was simply more of the same nonsense that we always see from you….You rant on and on and incessantly CLAIM that we are lying about your religion, but as always, you never do show one single instance of it.

If these “lies” were happening, or as numerous as you claim they are, then why is it that you can never show us even one?  Even when asked to do so?


MS. T:  When we expose their false teachings we are lied on and attacked saying we are making personal attacks. When in fact it was the very opposite, when people can't prove their beliefs by the Bible they turn to attacking the person instead of the message, picking apart word by word instead using the Bible.”

Okay, Ms. T….My challenge to you, is this….Give an example of what you wrote in the above paragraph.

Now, I have a few questions for you, and I would like to ask you to go on record here, and see if you will stand behind your comment.  

So, if I understand your first sentence correctly, you are saying that my contention that you all attack me personally and lie about me, is a LIE itself…. Meaning, that you are saying that neither you, Rando, nor Eddie, say anything about me that isn’t true, and that you can prove that your personal comments about me, are true.  Is that correct?

Okay, great…………

Can you provide evidence that:

1.  I am a racist, Freemason, a sexual predator, or a wife beater?

If not, then how is that you will justify these accusations, and claim they are not personal attacks, but rather, refuting doctrine?  Which doctrine are they refuting?

Please explain....

Furthermore, do you believe it is right to…..

2.  Claim “Derrick Holland said” , or “Derrick Holland believes” , or “Derrick Holland teaches” , when it is a fact that I did NOT make the statement, do NOT believe what is claimed, nor teach what is claimed?

Is that refuting a doctrine, Ms. T, or is that a personal attack?

Here, let me help by giving you just a few examples….

1.  When I said that JWs teach that coming to the Organization is necessary to be saved, but even that is no guarantee of salvation, and then you change the statement and claim that I said “an Organization BRINGS salvation” , knowing full well that this is a completely different meaning, are you refuting doctrine or are you lying, distorting, and attacking me personally?

2.  When Rando claims over and over that I said the Holy Spirit “changed His mind” about how to translate a word, when he knows full well that statement was in an article written by someone else, and that I did not make any such statement, but continues to attribute that statement to me anyway, would you say that is a lie?  Or merely refuting doctrine?

3.  When DW claimed that we think Jesus was a “body swapping zombie”, when we believe nothing of the sort, exactly what doctrine is that refuting?  Or, is it just lying?

4.  When I am called a “demon”, and slandered by implying that I am a racist, predator, and involved in the occult, is that a personal attack?  Or just refuting a doctrine?

What do you say, Ms. T?  I would sincerely like to see your wise input here, since you are the one who could type that comment with a straight face, with apparently no regard for the fact of how ridiculous it looks in the eyes of the readers here, who can READ for themselves just who is obsessed with, and who is attacking who.

5.  When I was called “an apostate and liar”, for making a passing reference that the WT once taught that Jesus had returned in 1874, and it turns out that I was the one who was correct, and that Rando was lying, please explain how this was not an attack against me, and how it is that I am the one who is the “liar”, when I told the truth, and he didn’t.

I would love to hear your explanation for that.

Oh, and to this day, Rando has not offered ONE single correction of his error, or even an acknowledgment of his wrong.  How do you defend that, Ms. T?  How do you still claim with a straight face, that we (the ones who got it right) should not be here, but Rando (the guy who lied about it), SHOULD be here?

6.  Ms. T, do you think it was okay for Rando to give a FAKE Baptist site, designed to mock Baptists, as proof of how bad Baptists are?  Why were you silent, since you will not willingly support anything that is false?  What would you say about us, if a former JW turned atheist, set up a site about the JW religion and made all sorts of false claims about it while pretending it was a real JW site, and then I came on here and referred readers to that site and tried to make them think it was a genuine JW site?  

Would you call me a “liar” for that, Ms. T?

Need some more?  I will let you tackle those 6, for starters.

Just remember….When a person is lied about, they have every right to respond.  Just as you claim you have the right to respond to criticism of your beliefs, I have the same right to respond to outright lies and slander about me, and my beliefs.  When a person responds to constant lies and personal attacks, they are not the one who is “obsessed”….The person/people who are doing the lying about the person, are the ones who are “obsessed”.

Do you really need that explained to you?

If I posted on here that you were a thief on your job, or that you were addicted to drugs, with no evidence that this is true, but was only doing it to discredit you, would you not have a right to respond to that?  Would that not be my personally attacking you, or would it be refuting a doctrine?  

I think you know the answer to that.  Of course, I would not do something like that to begin with.  I don't need to.  
 
Oh, and another thing….The accusations took a new low, when one of your questioners decided I am a chauvinist.  On what basis was that cheap shot made?  Because they couldn’t refute what I believe, so they attack me personally?  They certainly didn’t get that from anything I have ever said here.  It is completely untrue, for that matter.  I guess it was because I responded to you.  Well, there is nothing in that, that makes me a chauvinist.  I treat your lies with the same force that I treat Eddie’s, DW’s, or Rando’s.  Just because you’re female, doesn’t give you a free pass on lying, or slandering me.

And I think I have actually been quite kind to you, considering the nonsense that you have been posting about me for several years now.  If I knew the real names and location of any of the above-mentioned “MEN” listed above, I might have been tempted to reveal it.  I have not done that in your case, nor would I.  

But back to the subject….By all means, if you have anything that would substantiate your claim that your side does not attack me, and that I’m lying for claiming they do, then please post it and explain the above examples, as to why those are not personal attacks.  

MS. T:  DH's attacks were no match for Bro DW, believe that. But I'm sure he grew tired of the unreasonable lies that were being told.”

No, my guess is, he grew tired of having his teeth kicked in every time he tried to TELL more lies, and it got quite embarrassing for him to be challenged for quotes he never could quite seem to produce.  I guess even he figured out how ridiculous the “I’m paraphrasing” thing, was making him look.


MS. T:  “We showed scripture upon scripture upon scripture disproving his false beliefs. And because they can't prove them, they resort to lyingly saying we are attacking their person when in fact it's their false belief that is being exposed and they have no other outlet.”

This is simply laughable.  Maybe that is what you want to believe in your fantasy world, Ms. T, but I think the honest readers of this board know that it isn’t the reality.  

But hey, I’m fair…Please give me the Scriptures upon Scriptures, that refute anything that I believe.  I don’t believe I have ever turned down a reasonable and intelligent Scriptural discussion with anyone, who would conduct themselves in a reasonable and respectful manner.  

But really.…Do you really want to stand behind your statement, that I am not really being attacked personally?  Really, Ms. T?


MS.T:  “All they have left is digging up old literature that we have a better understanding about now and no longer believe some things regarding certain Bible prophecies. So they jump on that like it's some major find or some major revelation proving us false, when in fact it's just the opposite.”

Again, this was dealt with above, but I am simply not going to let you get away with this one.  It is a lie, plain and simple.  And you know it’s a lie, too.

So, Ms. T, you are asserting that I “dug up” some old literature, and “jumped on” the 1874 thing, as if it “was some major find”?  Is that really what happened, or are you not being honest?  The facts are right here on the forum, and speak for themselves….

Here is the extent of my “digging”, as this was the original comment….

ME:  “The way we know that Jesus did not come "invisibly" in 1874 (the original year that the WT taught for His return), or 1914 (the current year taught), is that the things that are supposed to accompany His coming, have not happened.”



http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/10/talk-benyamin-grunbaum


Now, please explain how this one passing reference, is “digging through the old literature and jumping on it” , as you described it, especially since the actual topic I was discussing, was not even 1874, but the failed expectations you and others had for October of THIS year.

Seriously, talk about being desperate....Is Jehovah pleased with you, when you make false statements and accusations like the one above, Ms. T?  

1874 didn't even have to be an issue, but poor Rando couldn’t keep his big mouth shut, and just had to cause you and Eddie more embarrassment, all due to one simple passing statement from me, that WOULD have been all that was said about 1874, had he not gone all to pieces.

And from that one benign remark, Rando comes unglued with this….

“However, this Apostate exclaims we taught the second coming in "1874"? It's an outright deceptive lie because he has an axe to grind and is looking for heads to chop off. This person is not a "Christian" but rather a Trinitarian who claims "the Trinity" to be His God. He teaches Salvation in this Trinity but unable to explain the trinity for the last 14 years on the JW Forum. The "1874" fiasco, was a teaching from the Second Adventists, NOT a Watchtower teaching as Apostates claim. If he has extensively researched my religion, he already knows this. UNLESS his ministry is one of deception. When he is caught in a lie, his pattern is to go to another lie, leaving a trail like a snake.”

AND….

“Don't believe the Apostate that claims the Watchtower taught Christ would Return in "1874", when the Watchtower never existed until "1881".


http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/10/greetings-2.htm


Uhm, personal attack, Ms. T?  Or refuting a doctrine?

You tell me…..



MS. T:  “A person can say all day and all night that something is not true....until they prove it's not true, it's just hot air. We prove their falsehoods straight from the Bible. yet, they can only jump on words we say or resort to things we no longer believe or teach.”

Yes, but it seem you would put this statement into practice, in your own conduct here.  Likewise, just as you think you can claim we are lying over and over and over, but never show a lie, that it will somehow become true, it won’t.  Just as you can repeat over and over that you all are not attacking us, does not change the fact that you are.  Just as you can claim over and over that you have “refuted us”, and just because you would like to believe that, you think it makes it true.  But the fact remains, you have refuted nothing.  And that is the reason for the personal attacks and slander.  If you were refuting us from Scripture, you wouldn’t need to slander us.

And what does she mean by "they can only jump on words we say" ?  Well, I believe addressing words that you SAY, is FAR better than what you people do....MAKING UP words that someone didn't say, and then using those words as proof of their "lies".  Simply amazing.


MS. T:  “Doctors use to work on dead people and then go deliver babies and not wash their hands. Once they realized that this was causing deaths, they changed this. People over many years have changed things that they learned may have been incorrect, and everyone is fine with it.”

“For years, we were told to eat Wheat bread as it was sooo good for us, now they find out that gluten isn't so good and people are fine with it and accept that correction.”

“But ONLY when it comes to JW's making corrections is it a major problem. When the corrections are for the better and make things more clearer.”


This is one of the most ridiculous analogies, I have ever seen.  I seriously doubt that a parent who had lost a baby due to the lack of knowledge you described, was “fine” with what had happened, once the procedure changed.  I am sure that the general population who was having children after the discovery, was “fine” with the change.

But there are only a few hundred differences here.  Doctors are human.  They mess up.  They do not CLAIM to speak for Almighty God, or to be dispensing His wisdom and knowledge to their patients. If they do, then they need to be perfect, or else they are shown to NOT be speaking for Almighty God.  

On the other hand, the WT DOES make this claim.  They have, and they still do.  Unlike doctors, God does NOT mess up.  He does not need to discover something new, and then correct something that is outdated.  God doesn’t work that way.  He makes no blunders.  Even as C.T. Russell, your own religion’s founder, said….New light will only ADD TO old light, but never extinguish it.  If old “light” has to be discarded, it was not light to begin with.  It was falsehood.

Sorry, but that one doesn’t quite cut it.  Even Old Testament prophets were imperfect humans who made mistakes in their own personal lives.  But when they were claiming to be speaking for Jehovah God, there was no room for error nor mistake.  This incurred the death penalty, if they prophesied something false, while claiming to be dispensing God’s truths.

Doctors delivering babies and eating wheat bread, are not quite on the same level as telling people that the Bible teaches something, and then after the blunder causes them much personal pain and suffering, saying “Whoops!  We have new light now, and if you don‘t trust us and accept this, then you are obviously evil and not wanting to do things Jehovah‘s way.”

Well, Jehovah never told the WT to teach that vaccinations were an outrage and a delusion, and that organ transplants were “cannibalism”.  That was a teaching of men….not of God.  And people died for it.  No, I’m not “fine” with that.  And its a disgrace that you are "fine" with it.

If you want to talk about a "double standard", Ms. T, then why not consider the one that YOU operate under, and those who think just as you do?  If we teach something you perceive as being error, you use it as "proof" that we are not of God, that we are "false", and that we are "spreading lies about Jehovah".  

However, when its YOUR religion that teaches all sort of nonsense and falsehood while claiming to speak for God, then its somehow viewed as "how Jehovah does things" , and is even lauded as a virtue, for being so "humble" as to correct it.   Your religion can cause countless deaths from quack medical teachings, or shatter expectations with failed predictions, and somehow this can be spun as some sort of "tweaking" or "refining" process that Jehovah is somehow responsible for.

Just a slight double standard there....


Now, let me just conclude with this, Ms. T….I have said it before, and I will say it again, so there is no need for you to keep lying about it to the readers.  NOBODY is against your defending your religion, in an honest and honorable way.  NOBODY has an issue with you addressing someone’s statements, if you believe those statements are false.  But quote the statement CORRECTLY, and show WHY it is false.  NOBODY is “attacking” you for merely defending your religion, as you have lied and told this board several times now.  

But when you think you are going to get away with coming on here and claiming that your people do not attack the non-Witnesses, when everybody and their brother can see that they do, then you are mistaken.  When you think you are going to get away with turning this around as if we are the ones full of hate, when it is YOUR fellow JW that is trying to slander us and deceive this board weekly with fake web sites, ridiculous accusations, and distortions of our beliefs, then you are mistaken.

So, since you made all of the comments above, then I would like to see if you will stand by them, and explain how you think all these examples listed, are not “personal attacks” against us, but are just “refuting doctrine”.

I hope you have a nice day.  Take care, and try to present things a little bit more accurately in the future.  

Jehovah`s Witness

All Answers


Answers by Expert:


Ask Experts

Volunteer


Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

©2016 About.com. All rights reserved.