Jehovah`s Witness/From Joseph....

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Question
These are 2 questions I received from "Joseph".  Due to his tendency to not be very fair in his ratings, I have replied to him in a rejection, and will copy and paste the correspondences here, instead.


FROM JOSEPH:

“Question: What a nice place when your gone. Nobody was fighting calling names. I hope you resign and stop your obsession with the JW's. Not only are you an abusive person but very rude when others don't agree with your findings. I don't I would want you on my team for you have nothing to teach.

If you come back and don't behave and cause fighting again, I will be taking note on you.

Thanks.

Joseph


My first reply....

"“Uhm, when was I "gone", exactly? Care to elaborate just a little?"



2nd writing from Joseph....

Subject: Peace on Allexperts while you were gone.

Question: When you stopped commenting for about a week. PLEASE STOP fighting with the experts! STOP, you are not winning any souls over. I wouldn't want you on my team to give bible studies.

Thanks.

Answer
Hello, Joseph. Thank you for writing back.

Unfortunately, your actions earlier today after your first writing, have complicated matters somewhat. I would have been happy to have answered this follow-up question for you, as I have no problem taking questions and having civil discussions with people who may not see eye-to-eye with me.

But since you decided to give me what I believe is a dishonest and unfair “low rating” from my first reply, for absolutely no good reason at all, you have necessitated my having to reply to your follow-up in a different way, in order to prevent you from doing that again.

So, what I will do, is I will respond to you by means of a “rejection”, so as to prevent you from giving me another unjust rating, in order to get me off the board. But so you will not think I am trying to prevent this discourse from being posted, I will then copy and paste it, and send it as a question to myself. That way, everything will be seen, but you will not be able to give me another dishonest rating.

For future reference, any time you want to give an unfair rating, its best to wait until AFTER you have gotten an answer to your final follow-up. That way, the Expert won't know what your intentions are, until after they have already sent their answer.

Now, about the ratings….Let me make it clear that, unlike several of the dishonest JWs here, I actually allow people to rate my answers. Rando and Ms. T, do not. That is their prerogative, but the reasons they don’t, are obvious. I allow people to do so, but I also expect the rating to be fair and honest. Yours was neither. I have had JWs try this underhanded tactic before, and I have learned what to look for.

Again, I have no problem with a person rating me, but they should rate me on the criteria given….

K = Knowledgeability
C = Clarity of Response
P = Politeness

Now, your first question made reference to there being “peace when I was gone”, and since I have not been “gone” lately, I had to ask you to clarify what you were talking about. I do not believe a “1” for Clarity of Response”, was very honest, as my reply was actually asking YOU to clarify what you were talking about, as your question was what was not very clear. Nor do I believe it was impolite (you gave me a “1” for Politeness), for me to ask you to explain what you meant, so that I could give you a better answer.

So the readers will know, here is what you wrote in your first writing….

JOSEPH:“Question: What a nice place when your gone. Nobody was fighting calling names. I hope you resign and stop your obsession with the JW's. Not only are you an abusive person but very rude when others don't agree with your findings. I don't I would want you on my team for you have nothing to teach.

If you come back and don't behave and cause fighting again, I will be taking note on you."

Thanks.

Joseph


Since you made a reference to a time when I was “gone” and that there was some sort of “peace” on the board, and since no such time actually exists in recent memory, I felt the need to ask you specifically when you were referring to.

I replied with…“Uhm, when was I "gone", exactly? Care to elaborate just a little?"

Now, perhaps you would be so kind as to explain how my asking you for clarification, warranted a “1” for politeness and clarity, when your writing to me was neither polite, nor clear?

But here’s the kicker, Joseph. After my simply asking you to elaborate on what you were referring to, you left this comment in the “ratings” section…..

“Evades Questions. Crowd rouser. A trouble maker.”

Now, why do I say that is dishonest of you? Simple…How is it that I “evaded your question”, when you didn’t even ask me a question? Please explain how you feel that is an honest statement on your part. Read your first writing again, and tell me where you see a question in it. There isn’t one.

Its hard to “evade” a question that wasn’t even asked.

You claim I am a trouble-maker. If you have followed this forum for any time at all, then you know that I always like to deal in specifics, and facts. I like to see documentation for any accusation. So, could you please give an example where I have caused trouble? Not responding to trouble, because I will do that. I will expose any lies that are told about my Biblical beliefs, or about me personally. I do not have to sit back silently, while people post lies about me being a racist, a Mason, or a predator. I will respond to that, as I see fit. But I want you to show one example of where everything was peaceful, and I started trouble, in a manner similar to what you are trying to do now.

So, do you have an example of this to show, Joseph?

And a “crowd rouser”? Seriously? Here you say there is “peace” currently on the board, yet you proceed to write to at least 5 experts, in an attempt to get something started. Why would you want to start something, if the board is currently experiencing peace? Why not wait until something gets started, and then write about it? Why try to stir up strife, when even as you admit, there is none? And you call me a “crowd rouser”?

But Joseph, how do your recent actions harmonize with these 2 passages of Scripture?

Matthew 5:9- “Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.”

1 Peter 3:10-11- “For he that will love life, and see good days, let him refrain his tongue from evil, and his lips that they speak no guile:

Let him eschew evil, and do good; let him seek peace, and ensue it.”

Are you pursuing peace, Joseph? If so, how do you explain writing to 4 “experts” besides myself, just trying to get something stirred up? How do you explain writing to me, during what you call a time of “peace”, and presuming to tell me what to do? What would possibly be your motive for that? I think I have it figured out.

You know, Joseph, that is another thing….I have read your writings to Ms. T, Rando, Eddie, and Brenton. And I am noticing a pattern here. I normally try to give a questioner the benefit of the doubt, but I wasn’t born yesterday, either. I’ve learned a few things in my time here. First, your writing to Mr. Hepburn. Your question to Mr. Hepburn and to myself, has “set up” written all over it. Like I said, I wasn’t born yesterday. Your reply to Mr. Hepburn was uncalled for.

After giving you the most honest answer of any you received, you left the following comment after Mr. Hepburn’s reply to you, in an obvious attempt to discredit him as a JW. How do you explain this remark, you left after his reply to you?

JOSEPH: “I think I will shy away from this Expert. If I want to learn about views about other religions I would simply go there. he doesn't seem to be a full fledged JW.”

In that comment, you presumed to JUDGE Mr. Hepburn’s genuineness as a JW. Yet, you want us to think you are merely a “curious” person who wants to “learn the Bible”….Sorry Joseph, not buying it. No "objective" non-JW who is merely wanting to learn the facts, would have written something that absurd. However, one of Rando's "friends", would. Someone who wants to discredit Mr. Hepburn for having the nerve to tell the truth and his effort to salvage what reptuation the JW religion has left in this forum, would write something like that. But not an objective reader.

What was there in his reply, that indicates he is not a “full fledged JW”? Is it because he told the truth, and gave you facts? Such as this comment from him….

“Unfortunately some are under the impression this forum was set by JWs for JWs to answer questions. It was not set up by any JWs and it is open to anyone that feels that they can answer questions about JWs and what we believe.”

What was wrong with that comment? Everything in it was true. What is NOT true, is the statement constantly made that, this forum is FOR Jehovah's Witnesses only, to answer questions about Jehovah's Witnesses. That is a falsehood, and Mr. Hepburn was honest enough to state that. Mr. Hepburn may not like the fact that non-Witnesses are here, and he never said that he did. He simply told the truth, regarding this forum. What he stated, was absolutely correct. It was the most honest and factual answer that you received, of the 4 JWs you contacted.

So, do you not think JWs are supposed to give factual and honest answers, Joseph? Why would his telling the truth, make you think he is not a “full fledged JW”? Aren’t “full fledged JWs” supposed to give factually true answers? What is there in this comment, that would make you judge Mr. Hepburn? Does a person have to twist the facts, in order for you to think they are a "full fledged JW"?

Like I said, I wasn’t born yesterday. This is an obvious attempt to discredit Mr. Hepburn, since much has been written lately, as to how he is a good example of a credible JW here, and the others you wrote to, are not. Is this some weak attempt at "revenge" against him, for having the decency to tell the truth about the actions of his own brethren, rather than choosing to side with them in their lies and slander? Would you think more highly of him, if he joined in the lying, and pretended that Jehovah is okay with it, like some of the others do? Would that make him a better JW?

But there’s a few more things, Joseph, that make your writings highly suspicious. First, the claim that you are wanting to learn the Bible, as if you’re not already a JW….

You said…“I do thank the real JW Experts for being here and volunteering their time so people like me can learn from the bible.”

Now, why would you think that only JWs can help you learn the Bible? Aside from having a bias already, there would be no reason for you to say that. Many people have an excellent knowledge of the Bible, who are not JWs.

And it was a pointless statement….The non-JW experts being here, do not prevent you from asking whomever you want to ask, about the Bible. One thing has nothing to do with the other. You have always been free to ask whomever you wish. The only ones here who would want to deny you that right, are the 3 dishonest JWs here.

And that’s another thing….If you were a person who sincerely were wanting to learn the Bible, then you would be repulsed by the lies, slander, and falsehoods promoted by those 3. How do I know that? Because other people who are reading the same posts you are reading, are repulsed by it, and see clearly who is starting the trouble. Are you seeing something they don’t see?

I don’t start trouble, Joseph. But I will address it, when need be.

Writing to me, you said…“When you stopped commenting for about a week.”

My not commenting for about a week, does not constitute being “gone”. That is why I asked you to clarify what you were referring to. The last time I was “gone” for several days, was at the end of October. And I think you will find that the board continued to have quite a bit of turmoil, even in my absence. And since I have not been “gone” for this past week, then I think its pretty obvious that the “peace” or non-peace on this board, has nothing to do with whether I am “gone”, or not. It has to do with whether they are continuing their lies and attacks, or not. As I recall, I refuted and exposed Rando’s latest batch of lies (actually, they are merely recycled ones), and he got silent. So, there was no need for me to keep replying. When he starts up again, I will expose him again.

Its just as simple as that.

YOU: “PLEASE STOP fighting with the experts!”

See above comment. There is no “fight”. If they lie about me or my beliefs, I will respond if I see fit. When they cease from lying and starting trouble, then trouble will cease. Like Mr. Hepburn already pointed out….This forum would be a much better place, if Rando left. Where Rando is, there are lies, and trouble is the result. Its always been that way. And even a TRUE JW like Mr. Hepburn, was honest enough to acknowledge the source of it. Everybody knows it. So do you. So, what gives here?

Why didn’t you write to them, asking them to “please stop lying” and “please stop slandering”, Joseph? The fact that this is going on, is not even debatable. So I have to ask…What could possibly be your motive here?

YOU: “STOP, you are not winning any souls over.”

Now, how could you possibly know this? To the contrary, I have received numerous writings, some in Private, and some from even JWs themselves, who are ashamed and embarrassed at the sorry unchristian conduct that has been shown by these 3 so-called JWs.

But again, as I am not the one starting the trouble, then there is really nothing to respond to there.

YOU: “I wouldn't want you on my team to give bible studies.”

And judging by your inability to give fair and honest ratings, I would not want you being the judge of a contest I had entered, either. So what. What does that prove?

In closing, Joseph, I do not believe you are merely an objective reader of this board, wanting to learn about the Bible. I believe you are already a JW who does not want the non-Witnesses on this forum, and you have seen every dishonest attempt to slander us, backfire. And having seen the complaints pouring in about the conduct of your friends, you are trying to turn the tide and make it appear that we are the ones causing trouble, and not them. When in fact, you know better. How does that harmonize with the quality of honesty and integrity, that ALL Christians are SUPPOSED to display, Joseph?

But I’ll tell you what I’m going to do, Joseph. Even though you guys don’t celebrate Christmas, I’m going to give you a Christmas gift that I know you will just love. After tomorrow, I am going to be “gone” from the board for 2 weeks. Reason being, my son is coming home for his first time since August for a visit, and I’m going to enjoy the time with my family being together. The timing couldn’t be better for you, could it? I mean, I was already planning to do it anyway, but here just 2 days right after you asked me to not “cause trouble”, I will be taking a “vacation” from the forum.

But I will return after 2 weeks, and will set straight or address any lies that I feel a response is warranted for. And if you don’t like that, Joseph, then may I suggest that you tell you friends not to lie (the real source of the trouble), instead of writing and telling me not to respond to those lies.

I will be happy to have a discussion on any Bible topic that you wish, Joseph. I will discuss any doctrine of the JWs that you wish, as well. But let’s keep it honest and forthright, Joseph. Whatever this game is of yours, I assure you I’m not the least bit interested in playing it.

Take care, and have a Merry Christmas.

Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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