Jehovah`s Witness/Where's the proof, Rando?

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Good morning Derrick,

Thought you might like to see Rando's response to my request for proof of his recent statements about the two of us.  Weird that a link he provides in his first response took me to the expert's profile he recently concocted about you.    

Here is my comment to him & his response:


Brother Rando
Subject:  Rendo, the burden of proof is yours.
Question:  A question from an unknown person brings out your propensity for fabricating lies about other people (Derrick Holland & myself in this instance) and the Baptist Church.

You say: "It is easy for Jay to refute by claiming "No Jehovah" which dissolves the trinity fallacy."   And "One claims there is "No Jehovah" and the other claims Jehovah is the Trinity Godhead?  Does Jay recognize that Derrick Holland was lying?"

I can only respond with one word:  Unbelievable!  Or perhaps: Ludicrous (amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity or incongruity... inept, false or foolish".  Or Lubricious: lecherous, shifty, marked by uncertainty or instability".

Where's your proof that I've said there is "no Jehovah"?  The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.  Saying something is one thing, proving it is another.  

You also say: "both are Baptists on a JW Forum"  Where's your proof that I am a Baptist?  Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation... you!  In addition, if I refuted what Derrick said about the Trinity, wouldn't that indicate that I am not a Baptist since Baptists are Trinitarians?  Think about it.   

Just because I have called you out for posting lies about Baptists does not make me a Baptist.  If you post false, slanderous things about the Assemblies of God church (or any other church for that matter) which I know not to be true, I will call you out for that, too.  Will that make me a member of the AoG church?

I would think people read this forum to try to understand what JWs believe & why.  Not to find out what JW's believe about Baptists.  Instead, what they find on the forum is 3 or 4 Witnesses in particular who reject questions, denigrate other religions, insult questioners with their condescending, insulting remarks and who in general project a less-than-favorable impression of the organization they are so determinded to defend.  This definitely does not present a picture of the 'happy Jehovah Witnesses' the WatchTower extols.  It is also, by association, a bad reflection on the other Witnesses on the forum.  

If you, Rando, are representative of the type person found in the JW organization, then I would run, not walk to the nearest exit.

We all know you are obsessed with Derrick, Baptists & the Trinity.  As if the 3 are synonomous.  We know you do not believe in the Trinity. That's been established. So stop beating a dead horse.  You are only cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Acting in a way that inflicts more damage on you than your adversary.

"And he [the Holy Spirit] gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;" ~ Eph 4:11

It's obvious your strongest suit is not teaching, but fabricating untruths. Perhaps you should find some other way to serve the JW organization than that of teaching others.  You do more damage than good to the image of the organization, but you are too proud to see or admit that.

When you cannot defend yourself on a non-Trinitarian topic you try to take the heat off yourself by pointing your finger at someone else (Derrick), changing the subject to the Trinity, or running & hiding. All tactics used by children.

"when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as  child:  but when I became a man, I put away childish things." ~ I Corin 13:11.

Grow up, Rando!  Put away your childish thinking

Is this going to be another one of your 'hit & run' pieces where you make unfounded accusations, then disappear hoping those who read it will not see the rebuttal and continue to believe your fabrications?

Are you relying on the JOseph Goebbel doctrine:  people will believe anything if it's repeated often enough and loud enough.

So, Rando... where's your proof?  Show us what you've got.  Or is this all you've got.  Fabrications (lies)

Jay

Answer:  http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/11/critic-jehovah.htm
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This is a second resonse to the same comment from me to Rando:
Your question was

QUESTION: A question from an unknown person brings out your propensity for fabricating lies about other people (Derrick Holland & myself in this instance) and the Baptist Church.

You say: "It is easy for Jay to refute by claiming "No Jehovah" which dissolves the trinity fallacy."   And "One claims there is "No Jehovah" and the other claims Jehovah is the Trinity Godhead?  Does Jay recognize that Derrick Holland was lying?"

I can only respond with one word:  Unbelievable!  Or perhaps: Ludicrous (amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity or incongruity... inept, false or foolish".  Or Lubricious: lecherous, shifty, marked by uncertainty or instability".

Where's your proof that I've said there is "no Jehovah"?  The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.  Saying something is one thing, proving it is another.  

You also say: "both are Baptists on a JW Forum"  Where's your proof that I am a Baptist?  Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation... you!  In addition, if I refuted what Derrick said about the Trinity, wouldn't that indicate that I am not a Baptist since Baptists are Trinitarians?  Think about it.   

Just because I have called you out for posting lies about Baptists does not make me a Baptist.  If you post false, slanderous things about the Assemblies of God church (or any other church for that matter) which I know not to be true, I will call you out for that, too.  Will that make me a member of the AoG church?

I would think people read this forum to try to understand what JWs believe & why.  Not to find out what JW's believe about Baptists.  Instead, what they find on the forum is 3 or 4 Witnesses in particular who reject questions, denigrate other religions, insult questioners with their condescending, insulting remarks and who in general project a less-than-favorable impression of the organization they are so determinded to defend.  This definitely does not present a picture of the 'happy Jehovah Witnesses' the WatchTower extols.  It is also, by association, a bad reflection on the other Witnesses on the forum.  

If you, Rando, are representative of the type person found in the JW organization, then I would run, not walk to the nearest exit.

We all know you are obsessed with Derrick, Baptists & the Trinity.  As if the 3 are synonomous.  We know you do not believe in the Trinity. That's been established. So stop beating a dead horse.  You are only cutting off your nose to spite your face.  Acting in a way that inflicts more damage on you than your adversary.

"And he [the Holy Spirit] gave some apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some pastors and teachers;" ~ Eph 4:11

It's obvious your strongest suit is not teaching, but fabricating untruths. Perhaps you should find some other way to serve the JW organization than that of teaching others.  You do more damage than good to the image of the organization, but you are too proud to see or admit that.

When you cannot defend yourself on a non-Trinitarian topic you try to take the heat off yourself by pointing your finger at someone else (Derrick), changing the subject to the Trinity, or running & hiding. All tactics used by children.

"when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as  child:  but when I became a man, I put away childish things." ~ I Corin 13:11.

Grow up, Rando!  Put away your childish thinking

Is this going to be another one of your 'hit & run' pieces where you make unfounded accusations, then disappear hoping those who read it will not see the rebuttal and continue to believe your fabrications?

Are you relying on the JOseph Goebbel doctrine:  people will believe anything if it's repeated often enough and loud enough.

So, Rando... where's your proof?  Show us what you've got.  Or is this all you've got.  Fabrications (lies)

Jay

ANSWER: http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/11/critic-jehovah.htm

---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: True to form, Rando.  You've only proven my point. When unable defend yourself & your fabrications, you ignore the rebuttal and change the subject.

Jay

You are very welcome.

Expert: Brother Rando

If you'd like to ask another question in the category, please come to http://www.allexperts.com/el/Jehovah-Witness/

This message is sent by an auto responder and cannot process replies.

Thanks,
Allexperts.com

***************************************

I see from today's post he is still sticking to his lies about me even though he has been asked for proof and could not provide any.

Regarding the date 1874, he doesn't know when to throw in the towel and accept the agony of defeat, does he?  Or is he punchdrunk? (A term derived from boxing where a boxer gets hit by his opponent so many times that his disorientation is described as and similar to being drunk.)

He presents himself as an expert, but his failure to answer legitimate questions seems to indicate he either doesn't know the answer or doesn't want the true answer known.
 
Sad that instead of sharing his professed expertise about the JW organization, he prefers to share his 'expertise' about the Baptists.

Hope you have a good day.

Jay

Answer
Well Jay, I have to say that I believe this was your best post yet.  And you have had some good ones, but this one was really insightful.  In fact, I believe you nailed Rando, not only in what he does, but why he does it.  Especially here….

“I see from today's post he is still sticking to his lies about me even though he has been asked for proof and could not provide any.

Regarding the date 1874, he doesn't know when to throw in the towel and accept the agony of defeat, does he?  Or is he punchdrunk? (A term derived from boxing where a boxer gets hit by his opponent so many times that his disorientation is described as and similar to being drunk.)”

I honestly think you have nailed it, Jay.  I admit, I myself have wondered over and over, why somebody would keep on doing things that only make them look foolish in public.  Its like somebody who just got burned by an oven, and then walks right back over there, and puts their hand right back on the same scalding hot burner that just got them.  Then, after crying out in pain, doing it again….and again, and again, and again.

It has never made sense.  Like the 1874 thing….There was no way he was going to win that one.  He never should have even said anything.  It was simply a passing reference on my part, and had he kept his mouth shut, nobody would even remember my reference at this point.  The discussion was not even about 1874.  But Rando, for whatever logic-defying reason, decided to use something I said that was an EASILY PROVEABLE fact, attack me over it, claim I said something that anybody can see I did not say, tell a lie about it, and then proceed to make himself look ridiculous for over a month solid.

It simply doesn’t make sense.  At least, it didn’t until now.  I think you got it, Jay….He is so completely disoriented in his thinking, that he has absolutely no idea how ridiculous he looks when he does this.  Of course, it doesn’t help when Eddie and Ms T, write him and commend him for his falsehoods, and tell him what a great job he’s doing.  If they really cared a thing about him, they would realize this is more than just about “us against the big bad apostate”, and be concerned that Rando’s spiritual well-being is in danger, because of his continual lies.

But in his mind, he thinks that nobody can see that he writes himself for support…even though we can. He thinks nobody knows it was him who wrote Ms. T, talking about Luis….When he is the ONLY JW here, who ever talks about Luis.  Luis was quite hard on Rando, and although Luis has not commented anything on this forum in several years now, it is obvious that Rando is still quite traumatized by how Luis exposed him at every turn.  He still sees Luis behind every bush.  That reference to Luis, was a dead give-away, as to who it was writing.  Then, in that same writing to Ms. T, he tries to pretend he’s someone else, by saying “when I was on the board” , and she went right along with it.  Wow…

But I think you are right on target…“punchdrunk.”  That would explain what would otherwise be unexplainable.  All the lies about Baptists, all the lies about me…..He actually doesn’t think the readers can read for themselves.  He thinks if he tells them what to see, then they will see it.  He forgets…this isn’t the Kingdom Hall…Its Allexperts.  

People repeatedly refer to his unstable mental state, yet it never registers.  He is completely proven wrong on 1874, among a hundred other things, and he still refuses to admit when he’s wrong.  

That is why he can repeat the same lies and misquotes a thousand times, even after they have already been thoroughly exposed, and still act like he has discovered something brand new, and is saying it for the first time.  This explains it.

“Punchdrunk” is defined as….

“1. Showing signs of brain damage caused by repeated blows to the head. Used especially of a boxer.
2. Behaving in a bewildered, confused, or dazed manner.

And….

“mentally confused; unable to think with clarity or act intelligently; "the flood of questions left her bewildered and confused”


You nailed it, Jay.  No doubt about it.


Also, I appreciated the fact that you wrote to him directly, and called his bluff, and challenged him for proof of his lies.  That is what I do, and it works every time…He runs his mouth, he NEVER has any quote to share for anything he falsely claims you said, and when you ask him to provide the statement, he shows his cowardice and “rejects” the question.

You would think that he would eventually learn what his lying will get him, and get tired of being asked for proof he knows he doesn’t have, and then having his rejections made public.  It looks like he would have learned the routine by now.  But it seems he never learns.

I just sent him a question today, also, that I am quite sure he will reject.  Maybe we should nickname him “Rejection Rando” .

Yes, I saw the low down and underhanded lies he was telling about you.  Claiming you said there was “no Jehovah”.  How stupid can someone get, and how low down in their lies, will he stoop?  Your friendship with me, subjects you to that, I’m afraid.  If you speak to, or are friendly with me, then it becomes okay to lie about you.  Its all part of his game.  

Jay, you said…:“I can only respond with one word:  Unbelievable!  Or perhaps: Ludicrous (amusing or laughable through obvious absurdity or incongruity... inept, false or foolish".  Or Lubricious: lecherous, shifty, marked by uncertainty or instability".

Where's your proof that I've said there is "no Jehovah"?  The burden of proof is on the one making the accusation.  Saying something is one thing, proving it is another.  

You also say: "both are Baptists on a JW Forum"  Where's your proof that I am a Baptist?  Again, the burden of proof is on the one making the accusation... you!  In addition, if I refuted what Derrick said about the Trinity, wouldn't that indicate that I am not a Baptist since Baptists are Trinitarians?  Think about it.   

Just because I have called you out for posting lies about Baptists does not make me a Baptist.  If you post false, slanderous things about the Assemblies of God church (or any other church for that matter) which I know not to be true, I will call you out for that, too.  Will that make me a member of the AoG church?”

Well said, Jay.  But one thing…I can’t believe you asked Rando to “think”.  Don’t get your hopes up on that one.  

I appreciate the fact that you would call him out for his lies on ANY group, even if it is not your own.  That is commendable, and the way it should be.  Some here seem to think that its perfectly okay, to lie about a religion that they don’t happen to belong to, but then scream bloody murder if they think you’re lying on theirs.  I think the decent readers of this board, are beyond sick of the double standard and hypocrisy.

In fact, did you catch how Rando lies so much, that he constantly contradicts himself?  I’ve always heard it said, that if you’re going to be a liar, then you had better have a good memory.  Unfortunately, Rando lies, but has a terrible memory.  He tends to forget the last lie he told, and he will say something completely different than what he said previously.

A good example of that, was just over a year or ago, when he claimed that I had abandoned the Trinity for Modalism, but then right after that (the very next day), he turned around and claimed that “Derrick loves the Trinity teaching”.  I quote….

On 8/20/13, Rando claims:  “what's interesting is that Derrick Holland abandoned the Trinity dogma in pursuit of the Modalism view.”

So, according to this, I am no longer a Trinitarian, but have become a Modalist.

HOWEVER….

The very next day, on 8/21/13, Rando claims:  “he  loves Apostate doctrines such as The Trinity”



But TODAY, he topped that one in his latest posting, by contradicting himself in the VERY NEXT PARAGRAPH.  He didn’t even wait until the next day.  He did it in the span of one paragraph.  Did you catch it?

I’ll quote it for you….

RANDO (in paragraph #2):  “Derrick Holland has been claiming that "Jesus is God" for fourteen years but no longer claims it”

RANDO (in paragraph #3):  “Derrick claims Jesus is God “

(Things that make you go…”Ummmm”.)

Isn’t it odd that I “no longer claim it”, yet I still “claim it”?

This is what happens when someone without a very good memory, decides to lie.  This guy doesn’t know if he’s coming, or going.


Jay, I also appreciated this sentence, because what you said is so true…

“I would think people read this forum to try to understand what JWs believe & why. Not to find out what JW's believe about Baptists. Instead, what they find on the forum is 3 or 4 Witnesses in particular who reject questions, denigrate other religions, insult questioners with their condescending, insulting remarks and who in general project a less-than-favorable impression of the organization they are so determinded to defend. This definitely does not present a picture of the 'happy Jehovah Witnesses' the WatchTower extols. It is also, by association, a bad reflection on the other Witnesses on the forum.”

You’re correct.  These same Witnesses who reject the most questions, incidentally, are the very ones who do the most complaining about who should not be here.  They simply do not have the ability to see the extremely poor examples for their religion, that they are.  If they honestly cared about it, they would leave the question answering to the Witnesses who actually PRACTICE what they are taught in this forum as to how to conduct themselves, and stop making their religion a public spectacle.  This is why even JWs have tried to plead with them to stop what they’re doing…all to no avail. They just don’t get it.   


You wrote…“It's obvious your strongest suit is not teaching, but fabricating untruths. Perhaps you should find some other way to serve the JW organization than that of teaching others.  You do more damage than good to the image of the organization, but you are too proud to see or admit that.

When you cannot defend yourself on a non-Trinitarian topic you try to take the heat off yourself by pointing your finger at someone else (Derrick), changing the subject to the Trinity, or running & hiding. All tactics used by children.

"when I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as  child:  but when I became a man, I put away childish things." ~ I Corin 13:11.

Grow up, Rando!  Put away your childish thinking”


Again, right on the money.  Its pretty bad when a person is more known for the fabrications they come up with, than anything valuable from the Scripture that they have taught.  He truly does do more damage than any non-Witness here has ever done.  

I remember awhile back, he said he would like to be the only JW here.  Can you imagine if he were, the havoc that would create for them?


You said….Is this going to be another one of your 'hit & run' pieces where you make unfounded accusations, then disappear hoping those who read it will not see the rebuttal and continue to believe your fabrications?

Are you relying on the JOseph Goebbel doctrine:  people will believe anything if it's repeated often enough and loud enough.

So, Rando... where's your proof?  Show us what you've got.  Or is this all you've got.  Fabrications (lies)”


Yes, that’s all he has….fabrications.  That is why he can never provide proof of anything he says….Because its all made up.  If the things he claims we believe were true, he would have no problem in providing where it was stated by us.

Jay, think about it….If Rando really had any proof for any of the things he claims we says, do you honestly think he would refuse to post it?  Wouldn’t he want to substantiate his statements with fact, and ruin our reputations?  Would he actually “reject” your request for proof, when showing proof would only validate him?

You, me, and the readers all know….There is only ONE reason he would REJECT your question.  You called him out on his lie, and asked him for proof that he doesn’t have.

Well done, Jay.  Excellent post.  Thank you for taking the time to write it, and show him for what he is.  

This is why I referred to Rando a few weeks back, as “the gift that keeps on giving”.  Its almost like he’s trying to work against the Society, instead of for it.

I hope you have a very blessed evening, and take care.


Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

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High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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