Jehovah`s Witness/Saved by blood
QUESTION: Hello. I need good answers concerning the cornerstone of Christian faith.
First of all, Im bored to see atheists and satanists saying that Christians only have blind illogical faith without any knowledge and understanding. If God gave us logic, then whats the purpose? If we cant understand our salvation through logic, then how do we know we are saved? Im also bored to hear that God's wisdom is above us, I want to know and understand HOW Im saved. I think this is not an illogical question, every Christian needs to understand.
So I want to know how Christians are logically saved through the blood of Jesus. How does Jesus' blood covers sins and saves from death. And why blood?
I read that maybe God sacrificed an innocent animal after Adam's sin, so that they wouldnt die from cold(?). Apart from any symbolism here, is this the literal connection between animals' sacrifices and Jesus' sacrifice?
I must also inform you that I read on a christian site that God is not a bloodthirsty god who demands blood. It says that salvation is not through the shedding of Jesus' blood.
I hope you will help me with a clear answer, cause some people say "this", some others say "that" and I dont know which is correct about our salvation.
ANSWER: Christaras, I do not know that I am going to be able to give you the answers you are wanting. I will, once again, give you what I believe is the Biblical viewpoint, but what you do with it, is up to you. What worries me about you, is that the last several times you have written me, you seem to want answers to everything God does, before you are willing to trust Him with your life and serve Him. I believe that is a mistake. God is worthy of our trust and our worship, and He is under no obligation to explain to us, everything He does, or make us understand His thoughts, which are far beyond ours....As they should be.
However, I will try and give you a Scriptural response to your questions.
YOU: "First of all, Im bored to see atheists and satanists saying that Christians only have blind illogical faith without any knowledge and understanding. If God gave us logic, then whats the purpose? If we cant understand our salvation through logic, then how do we know we are saved? Im also bored to hear that God's wisdom is above us, I want to know and understand HOW Im saved. I think this is not an illogical question, every Christian needs to understand."
First off, I would not worry in the least about what an atheist or a Satanist thinks is "logical". I mean, an atheist believes that everything we see, including all living beings, evolved from basically nothing, through a long series of random "accidents", over billions of years. In addition, they believe that life can come from non-living matter, given the magic ingredient of "time".
So, I would not worry much about what they think is "logical". They do not apply the same logic to the existence of God, as they do to everything else in life. ANY atheist who drives by a fence post, is going to "logically" conclude that someone had to dig the hole and set that post in the ground. If they walk into a building and see a painting on the wall, they will "logically" conclude that someone had to paint it, and someone had to hang it there. It is only when it comes to the complexity of the universe, and the structure of this world, and the complexity of life, that they can convince themselves it "just happened".
Yes, God gave us the capacity of "logic"...That is why I am a creationist, and not an evolutionist. However, there are limits with any logic and knowledge that God has given us. He intends for those things to cause us to marvel at His power and seek to know Him, rather than to question and argue with Him, or decide that we know better than He does.
In regards to salvation, "logic" has NOTHING to do with "knowing we are saved". The Bible doesn't say we are saved by "logic" or "understanding" all the ins and outs, but rather, by grace through FAITH.
Ephesians 2:8-9- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
We KNOW we are saved, not because we are smart (if that were the case, can unintelligent people not be saved?), but because of the PROMISE of God that cannot fail.
1 John 2_24-25- "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast."
1 John 3:23-24- "And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us."
1 John 4:13-15- "Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God."
In fact, Christaras, some of the "great" theological minds of this world, are likely lost without God, because they base everything on education or learning, rather than simple saving faith in Jesus Christ.
I am sorry you are "bored to hear that God's wisdom is above us"
, because it is. It has nothing to do with whether it bores you...It is simply a fact of Scripture.
Isaiah 55:8-9- "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts."
And how interesting, that the above verses, immediately follow a verse talking about being "saved", or pardoned by God....
Isaiah 55:7- "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon."
Now Christaras, you can either let this fact of Scripture stumble you, or you can gladly embrace the free gift of salvation that God has given you. Its up to you. If a guy is handing me a suitcase with %1,000,000.00 in it, I am going to take it. I am not going to refuse it, simply because I can't "logically" figure out WHY he decided to give it to me.
This is one of the reasons the Scripture says that Christ is "precious" to some, and a means of "stumbling" to others.
1 Peter 2:7-8- "Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."
You said..."I want to know and understand HOW Im saved. I think this is not an illogical question, every Christian needs to understand."
That depends on what you mean by your statement. If you want to fully understand the "why" of God choosing to save wicked sinners like us, then I am afraid you will not. However, you CAN understand the Bible teaching, of "how" we are saved....By complete trust and faith in the shed blood of Jesus Christ as our atonement, and the payment for our sin debt. Its that simple.
YOU: "So I want to know how Christians are logically saved through the blood of Jesus. How does Jesus' blood covers sins and saves from death. And why blood?"
Why blood? Honestly? What else COULD atone for sin?
This goes back to man's first sin. Adam had been told that death would be the penalty for sin. Does this sound too harsh? If so, then that is because we fail to understand just HOW holy God is, and HOW wicked sin is. We live in a world today, that sin is downplayed. Even "Christians" sometimes live in sin, and when addressed about it, may say something like...."You can't judge me"
, or "God understands my circumstances"
Now, the truth is, God does NOT "understand" continued and willful disobedience against His commandments. He understands that we are human and fail, and that is why He allows us to confess our sins and find forgiveness. But we are NOT to willfully walk in open disobedience to Him, and continue in sin when we become aware of what we are doing.
But the fact that so many do, merely shows they understand neither His holiness, or just how serious sin truly is to God. The payment for sin, is for blood to be shed. But in Christ, we have forgiveness, because HIS blood was shed in the place of where ours should have been.
I am curious to know, that if you object to blood being shed as a requirement for salvation, what would YOU suggest would be the proper way to be saved? And secondly, by what authority do WE get to determine how we are saved? I would think that since it is Almighty God Who is saving us, that HE would be the One to decide the terms.
YOU: "So I want to know how Christians are logically saved through the blood of Jesus. How does Jesus' blood covers sins and saves from death. And why blood?"
Jesus' blood doesn't "cover" sins, so to speak. It REMOVES them. Notice the contrast between the blood sacrifices of animals under the Old Covenant, and the sacrifice of Christ under the New Covenant....
Hebrews 10:1-4- "For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect."
For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins.
But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins."
v.10-12- "By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all."
And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:
But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God"
v. 16-18- "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;"
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin."
YOU: "I read that maybe God sacrificed an innocent animal after Adam's sin, so that they wouldnt die from cold(?). Apart from any symbolism here, is this the literal connection between animals' sacrifices and Jesus' sacrifice?"
First off, there is no mention in the Bible of "cold", until AFTER the flood, and there are several reasons for that. But that is another discussion. But no, God making them coverings from animal skins, had nothing to do with the weather. Whoever wrote that, has no knowledge of what they are talking about.
First of all, this is the first instance in the Bible, that hints to the fact that God requires blood to be shed for sin. Why do you think that Abel's BLOOD sacrifice was accepted, but Cain's was not? Because Cain brought forth as an offering, the fruit of HIS OWN labor, while Abel understood that only blood could atone.
Also, the animal skins were used as coverings for their nakedness....Not because it was cold, but because they were now fallen and sinful humans, and therefore, needed to be covered from their nakedness. In a sinless and perfect world, this was not necessary. In a wicked world, it definitely is.
YOU: "I must also inform you that I read on a christian site that God is not a bloodthirsty god who demands blood. It says that salvation is not through the shedding of Jesus' blood."
To be just downright blunt....This is NOT a "Christian" site, and the author of this article, is presenting false and unbiblical doctrine. To deny the blood of Jesus Christ, is to deny the only means of salvation. This person is completely false, and unscriptural. Let me just give you a couple of verses which show beyond all doubt, that we ARE saved by the shed blood of Jesus Christ....
Matthew 26:28- "
Acts 20:28- <b>"Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."
Romans 3:24-25- "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"
Romans 5:9-10- "Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life."
Ephesians 1:7- "In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;"
Ephesians 2:13- "But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ."
Colossians 1:20-22- "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled
In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:"
Hebrews 9:12-14- "Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?"
(In fact, reading the entire 9th chapter of Hebrews, would be very beneficial to you in answering what the Biblical teaching is)
Hebrews 9:22- "And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission."
And a pretty harsh warning for anyone who would take the position of the author of that article, or who would follow that false teaching....
Hebrews 10:29-31- "Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."
I believe the above Scriptures should suffice, in showing that the article in your link, was in direct contrast with the Bible's teaching.
I don't know if this is the answer you are looking for, but it is the Scriptural one, nonetheless.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: You wrote too much, thanks. And mine is long too, lol!
Do you find it wrong, trying to understand the basic column of christian faith? Why human logic is so wrong, why God gave it to us then? I dont understand some christians.
I may not understand how God can simultaneously be here and there, answer 100 prayers at the same time, but I want to understand about salvation. When people ask biblical questions they're basically searching for logic in something they cant grasp.
Jws are known for using your argument "that God's wisdom is above us" when they are caught with something they cant explain. He he.
I agree with you that we cant understand everything about God. But, hey this is a basic thing, its the SALVATION. Im against blind faith, I know atheists are wrong. I want to show them that Christianity has logical answers and is not based just on trust and faith. Its trust, its faith but its also logic. I disagree with Orthodoxs, Protestants, Jws but I also disagree with some things you evangelists say. For example "Trinity" is nowhere in the Bible, it was invented some centuries later by Athanasius. I believe every christian organization has something wrong, noone is perfect. Do you believe that your understanding of the Bible is 100% correct? Come on, ok this guy on the site may have some wrong views, but are you 100% right? You may have not understood what he says. Jws may be right in something you are not. Do you exclude this possibility? Theres always the possibility you may be wrong.
Do you imply that if I finally wont logically understand the salvation, I will reject it? He he, Of course no! Do you think Im going to band with atheists? Lol. But Im gonna give a try to understand whatever is possible.
Ok, so you say that Jesus took the penalty for us. He died in our place, He shed His blood. You asked me what else instead of blood? Yes, blood symbolizes life, without it man cant live. But does someone dies only if his blood is spilled? His heart may stop and he dies. No blood. When Adam and Eve died, they just died.
It seems blood was spilled in Eden when an innocent animal was killed to become skin for Adam and Eve.
Now, you try to answer my questions if you dont bother.
1)Why it took so long for Jesus to come and give a sacrifice to God, why he didnt do this after the sin of Adam?
2)Was God "pleased" with the sacrifice of innocent Jesus? Why apostles were angry with Jews and Judas, if Jesus' sacrifice saved humanity?
My view is that innocent Jesus sacrificed the mortal flesh we carry. He begged the Father to forgive whoever believes in Jesus as king and admits his sins. This is logical.
The Son begged the Father and finally the Father accepted that men can again live for ever and not die and become dust. But Jesus had to show his love, by dying for man. Otherwise men would not say "Im sorry my God, you died for me, Im awful". So it was love. A god (or God in your Trinity Doctrine) became man so that man could again come near the divine world.
This makes some sense. Please help with the 2 questions and stop the "Gods wisdom" argument cause I 50% agree with you. Dont tell me about God's wisdom, I know He is higher.
Im asking your mere mortal wisdom, in whatever our little mind can grasp.
Sorry you think I wrote too much. That is getting to be a trend lately....People writing me questions that require long answers, then talking about how my answers are too long. Again, this question is really not even related to the category of Jehovah's Witnesses in the least, but I chose to reply to it anyway, although it is going nowhere.
You might also note that most of my answer, was listing Scripture references directly relating to the question that you asked me. Whenever I give an answer to any question, I try to make it a Scripturally solid answer.
That being said, I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying about "logic". First off, I did not ever deny that God gives us the capacity to think logically, nor am I saying we shouldn't use what He gave us....In our everyday lives, and in situations that we face. What I said was, that our gift and capacity of "logic", is not to be used as an invitation to question the ways, nature, or mind of Almighty God, Who is higher than we are. If we ever attempt to place our logic on the same level as His thinking, we have made a serious mistake.
Glad to hear you say that you understand that we cannot understand everything about God, and that you would not reject the Biblical plan of salvation, regardless of whether you can wrap your "logical" mind around it. Personally, I find it beyond "logic" that a holy God would even WANT to love and save a sinner like me. But I happily accept it, and enjoy a relationship with Him, anyway.
YOU: "Do you find it wrong, trying to understand the basic column of christian faith? Why human logic is so wrong, why God gave it to us then? I dont understand some christians."
Again, that's not what I said. I, too, like to understand things from a "logical" perspective. That is why I have done some study on the topics of creation and evolution, and have arrived at the conclusion that evolutionists have no monopoly on "logic", when you take a long hard look at what THEY believe.
For instance, you see many comments here on this board, from people who would reject the Scriptural teaching about Hell, because it doesn't fit into their idea of how God should "logically" be. However, I do not base my beliefs on THEIR human logic...I base it on what the Scriptures teach.
I believe it is perfectly logical, that a holy God Who abhors sin, and provides us a means of redemption from our sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ, would require everlasting punishment for those who would spurn or thumb their nose at God's mercy. People who think that is illogical, apparently do not understand either God's holiness, or sin's wickedness.
But as for your question about fully understanding the plan of salvation, there isn't much else to say. I already gave you the Scriptures that prove that it IS the blood of Christ that offers forgiveness. I also gave you the Scriptures that clearly show that God requires FAITH, instead of our "logically" figuring something out before we will accept it. To continue to list the same Scriptures, would be pointless.
He said that "whosoever believeth in Him"
, not "whosoever logically understands Him"
. He said that we are "by grace through faith"
, not "by grace through logic"
. Its that simple....God wants us to believe and trust Him, even without having to understand it all.
But you want it logical? Okay, here goes....
1. You are a sinner
2. Your sin is wicked, and separates you from a holy God, making you deserving of Hell
3. Under the Old Covenant, an animal had to die, to merely cover for your sin. But the animal did nothing wrong? That is correct, that that is the point....The innocent dying for the guilty. It was a foreshadowing of the completely perfect and innocent Lamb of God, coming to die, shed His blood, and take away the sin of the world.
4. The blood of animals could only cover temporarily, but not remove, the guilt of our sin. This was ultimately fulfilled in Jesus Christ.
5. The Bible teaches the life of the flesh is in the blood...Hence, the reason that blood has to be shed, as atonement for sin.
6. When Christ died on the cross, He fulfilled and did away with the need for any more animal sacrifices, as His sacrifice was good once and for all, forever.
That's about as "logical" as I can make it for you. We are sinners, and have offended a holy God. We have fallen short of His requirements. There is no way that we can save ourselves, or bridge the gap that our sin has created between God and man. The only One Who could do that, is Christ. God sets the terms by which we are saved. It isn't by our good works, nor is it by what way "seems right" to us. Its by one Person....The Lord Jesus Christ.
Now, instead of repeating everything I have already said, I will simply enclose a link that I think will explain it somewhat more in depth. Some of the points, I have already made. But maybe you will find what you are looking for.
Now, on to a few of your other points....
YOU: "Jws are known for using your argument "that God's wisdom is above us" when they are caught with something they cant explain. He he."
The "guilt by association" thing really doesn't bother me much. I am pretty satisfied that I answered your question with Scripture, and anything beyond that, is merely speculation or my opinion. And my opinion may contain merit, or it may be flawed. But I do not like to attempt to explain anything beyond what we are told in the Scriptures.
The fact is, that "God's wisdom IS above us"....That's why He is God, and we are the creation. If it were the other way around, then He would not be God.
That seems "logical", doesn't it?
YOU: "But, hey this is a basic thing, its the SALVATION. Im against blind faith, I know atheists are wrong. I want to show them that Christianity has logical answers and is not based just on trust and faith. Its trust, its faith but its also logic"
That is a noble motive, however, I think you worry too much about what atheists think about Christians. For people to walk around breathing air in an atmosphere that God created in order to sustain life, and see the creation all around them, yet not be able to figure out that design must have a Designer....Well, again, I am all for trying to reach them with the Gospel, but what you are failing to realize, is that evolution itself is a "religion based on faith". And it requires a lot more faith to believe that life comes from nothing, than to believe there is a Life-Giver. I honestly think atheists have more faith than ANY Christian does....They would have to, to believe some of the nonsensical things they do. Atheists cannot account for emotions, nor define how we determine right from wrong. Nor can they explain a purpose for our existence.
And I don't know that I would call salvation a "basic" thing. I mean, God made it simple so that anyone can come to Him. But to me, the entire concept of a sinner saved by grace, is quite profound. It approaches a depth of God's love and mercy, that is beyond my finite mind.
YOU: "I disagree with Orthodoxs, Protestants, Jws but I also disagree with some things you evangelists say. For example "Trinity" is nowhere in the Bible, it was invented some centuries later by Athanasius."
That is another discussion altogether, however you are in correct about that, and it is easy to prove. You say "Trinity is nowhere in the Bible"
". Well, if you are referring to the WORD "Trinity" (a Latin word, which is why we wouldn't EXPECT it to be in the Bible), then you are correct. However, if you are implying that the TEACHING that is reflected by the word "Trinity" (Tri-unity of Persons in one God) is not in the Bible, you are sadly mistaken. We have hints of the Trinity beginning in the first chapter of the Bible, and we see it unfold throughout the Scripture.
The problem all non-Trinitarians have hanging over them, and always will as long as they continue their denial of Scripture, is this....
There is only ONE true God, there are 3 Persons in Scripture called "God", yet these Persons are distinct.
Until this is dealt with in some manner besides lies, mental gymnastics, and re-translating problem Scriptures, then they really have no argument.
Christaras, do you deny that Jesus Christ is referred to as God, and that the Holy Spirit is likewise, referred to as "God"?
YOU: "Do you believe that your understanding of the Bible is 100% correct? Come on, ok this guy on the site may have some wrong views, but are you 100% right? You may have not understood what he says. Jws may be right in something you are not. Do you exclude this possibility? Theres always the possibility you may be wrong."
Here is my answer to that, from the Scriptures....
Romans 3:4- "... yea, let God be true, but every man a liar;..."
That goes for me, you, JW's, the WT Society, or any other person on earth, for that matter. If they speak against what the Scripture says, they are wrong....period.
Isaiah 8:20- "...if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."
So, its like this....Obviously, ANYONE can be wrong about something, and have to adjust their viewpoint once they learn the Bible's teaching. However, this nonsense of "now here's the truth, every Bible teaching from the Slave is the correct one until they tell you otherwise"
, is hogwash. You know why? Because the so-called "Slave" is nothing but a group of men, and since they are men, then see above verse in Romans 3:4.
However, when it comes to Bible doctrine, I am very careful not to even form an opinion or a belief, without endeavoring to study all the Bible has to say on the subject. It has nothing to do with whether its possible for ME to be wrong....of course it is. But it is NOT possible for the Scriptures to be wrong. So, when my view is in line with the Scripture, it cannot be wrong. When their view is out of line with the Scriptures, it cannot be correct.
Let's take the Trinity, for instance, since Rando and Ed are hung up on it, and since you brought it up. I have watched in amusement, at how Rando has invented conversations with me that never took place, except in his dreams. He has been telling everyone that he asked me for a Scripture showing God to be 3 Persons in one God. Actually, I have tried to discuss this topic and the Scriptures SEVERAL times, and also offered to discuss the Johannine Comma with him, as well. He declined.
I think the conversation he is confusing himself on, is when I asked HIM repeatedly for one verse that shows Jesus Christ is Michael the Archangel. If my memory serves me correct, he did not provide one then, and he will not provide one now.
However, since we have numerous clear passages of Scripture showing Jesus to be God, the Creator, and bodily risen from the tomb, then no, there is no way I am wrong on that....Because the Bible isn't wrong.
Now, let me just say it like this....Where the JWs are in agreement with the Scriptures, they are correct. Where they are not in agreement, and where they try to explain away and re-translate the Scriptures, then no....they are not correct.
YOU: "Ok, so you say that Jesus took the penalty for us. He died in our place, He shed His blood. You asked me what else instead of blood? Yes, blood symbolizes life, without it man cant live. But does someone dies only if his blood is spilled? His heart may stop and he dies. No blood. When Adam and Eve died, they just died."
Again, I gave you the clear passages that teach that blood must be shed, for the remission of sins. Not just death, but blood to be spilled. You will find them in my last reply, and there is no point in repeating it.
It would not have met the requirements for the blood to be shed, had Jesus had a heart attack, a disease, or fallen off a cliff. He died the death He did, because it fulfilled the Father's righteous requirements.
YOU: "It seems blood was spilled in Eden when an innocent animal was killed to become skin for Adam and Eve."
You just answered your own question above....From the very first sin, blood was shed. That was God's requirement then, it was down through the Old Testament, and was ultimately fulfilled in the perfect sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross.
YOU: "1)Why it took so long for Jesus to come and give a sacrifice to God, why he didnt do this after the sin of Adam?"
Galatians 4:4-5- "But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons."
2)"Was God "pleased" with the sacrifice of innocent Jesus?"
Was God pleased?
Isaiah 53:10-11- "Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities."
YOU: "Why apostles were angry with Jews and Judas, if Jesus' sacrifice saved humanity?"
Jesus' sacrifice did not "save humanity"....It gave humanity the CHANCE to be saved, by acceptance of His death on the cross. For those who reject Him, they will not be saved. But the offer is there, for all who will receive Him.
John 3:17-18- "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."
2 Peter 3:9- "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"
Now, sometimes you will a JW here make the comment that "You can't join Jehovah's Organization, but you have to be drawn by Him"
. Again, sounds great, but is completely unscriptural nonsense. The above verses show that God wants ALL people to be saved, and NONE lost.
Does the Bible say that one must be "drawn"? Yes, but it also shows just WHO is drawn to salvation....
John 12:32- "And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me."
The truth is, it is the blood of Christ which was shed on the cross for ALL men, that draws us to salvation. But it is up to our free will, whether we accept or reject it.
YOU: "My view is that innocent Jesus sacrificed the mortal flesh we carry. He begged the Father to forgive whoever believes in Jesus as king and admits his sins. This is logical."
Whether you believe it is "logical" or not, is irrelevant. What matters, is that it is not Scriptural, in light of the verses presented, which show that blood must be shed for remission of sins.
See, this is the very danger I warned you about....Placing what is "logical", above what is Scriptural. We simply do not have the license to do that. Its one thing to want to logically understand something, and it is another thing to form our own beliefs about our own eternity, based on human "logic".
Again, the Scriptures make it clear that blood has to be shed, for sins to be remitted.
YOU: "The Son begged the Father and finally the Father accepted that men can again live for ever and not die and become dust. But Jesus had to show his love, by dying for man. Otherwise men would not say "Im sorry my God, you died for me, Im awful". So it was love. A god (or God in your Trinity Doctrine) became man so that man could again come near the divine world."
Its a little more than that. The fact is, Jesus is the ONLY Mediator between God and man. In fact, He is the Mediator for ALL Christians, by virtue of His shed blood on the cross (1 Tim. 1:2-5).
Sadly, the JW religion teaches that Jesus is Mediator for only the 144,000, which is completely unscriptural. A Mediator is a "Reconciler" between 2 parties who are at odds...Namely, mankind and God. If a person does not have a "Reconciler/Mediator", then they have not been forgiven, have No One to bridge the gap between them and the Father, and will not be saved.
Furthermore, I will not "stop with the God's wisdom" argument, because it is still the key issue here. You will only grasp a thimble full of knowledge as to the awesome plan of God for our redemption. Understand it best you can, accept it by FAITH as He commanded you to do, and just be thankful that He thought enough of you to even redeem you in the first place. That is the beauty of the Gospel....We get what we don't deserve, and are not entitled to.
Okay Christaras, you have gotten my "mortal wisdom". This is about the best I can do for you. Hope it helps.