You are here:

Jehovah`s Witness/The Trinity denial non-denial dilemma.

Advertisement


Question
Brother Rando,

Let me please run this by you. You'll find it quite interesting if not amusing -  The Trinity Dilemma. That is, the dilemma to properly and clearly explain their mysterious doctrine by means a denial non-denial statement.

For instance, one of the number1 Trinitarian proponent here in the JW Forum made this very revealing statement.

He said that he never made a:

>> ...  statement where [he said/] taught that Jesus is "another almighty god."<<

Then went on further to protest that:

>>"Nobody asked for a quote from [him], saying that Jesus is Almighty God, as is the Father"<<

But then, followed it with this:

>>"... Every Trinitarian believes there is ONE Almighty God, manifest in 3 Persons, meaning that each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually, or collectively."<<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/2/only-know-part.htm

Now what do you make of it? Does it seem to be a schizophrenic if not a bait and switch tactic Brother Rando?


I mean, denying something you claim not saying but then turn around and say exactly the same thing you claimed not saying. Is that not a schizophrenic denial non-denial? I don't know about you but it is to me.

But as way of reminder in case you want to know what prompted this discussion.

A while back if you recall, in one of his post, he gave this challenge to you and Brother DW.

He said:

>>So, thanks for making that so obvious once again, by your complete inability and refusal to post even ONE statement from me, teaching that:

1.  Jesus is “another almighty god”<<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/1/poor-rando-dw-predictab

To which (unfortunately for him) by his own admission, said (in one his post) the following:

>>"...The Scriptures testify that He [Jesus] is the Creator of all things (John 1:3, Colossians 1:15-17), therefore, making Him God Almighty, as is His Father."<<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2011/4/Jesus-50.htm

To which he now finds himself denying making a.

>> ...  statement where [he said/] taught that Jesus is "another almighty god." <<

Unfortunately for him, his denial backfired because if you look at what he said, it wasn't really a denial.

There's was no difference in the statements.

Here's what I mean:

Can you see any any difference in the statements below other than the vious?

That is, that:


>>"..Jesus is "another almighty god." <<?

Comparing this statement:


>>"He [Jesus]... making Him God Almighty, as is His Father."<< ?

with this:

">>... each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually,"<< ?

Does it not show that he did indeed say that:

>>"..Jesus is "another almighty god." <<?


If not, then please pardon me for my insistence, but what is it then?

Yet, now he changes the story line to this, that:

>>What has been asked for repeatedly, is a statement that I believe Jesus is a separate "god" from the Father, making Him "another almighty god".<<<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/2/only-know-part.htm

So again what changed?

Nothing really in my opinion because he just contradicted and invalidated his own denial by admitting that:

>>"... Every Trinitarian believes there is ONE Almighty God, manifest in 3 Persons, meaning that each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually, or collectively."<<

In a sense, it's like saying "potato" and "potahtoe", no difference in meaning.

So deny all he want, the case has been established, that he did indeed stated that

>>"..Jesus is "another almighty god." <<?


How's that for a schizophrenic denial non-denial!!!

But let's give him the benefit of the doubt and let's assume that he never said:

>>"... that Jesus is "another almighty god."<<

Now, if this is the case, what then does he mean by:

"each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually, or collectively" ?

Would it logically mean (if we follow his line of reasoning) that:

1) God the Father is Almighty God?

2) God the Son is Almighty God?

and

3) God the Holy Ghost is Almighty God?

I would think so.

So, how then does this not make >>"... Jesus ... "another almighty god."<<< if <b>"each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually, or collectively" ?

But he says it be, because according to the statement, there's only "ONE Almighty God, manifest in 3 Persons" and "NO Trinitarian believes that the 3 Persons are separate "gods", or that the Father is one God, and that Jesus is "another god"<<

So the answer then, must be NO.

That there's only "ONE Almighty God, manifest in 3 Persons".

But this too can't be, because again according to the statement Jesus and the Holy Ghost are also "Almighty God" as each separate persons "can be called "Almighty God" individually".

So, do you see the dilemma Brother Rando, which one is the true Almighty God amongst the THREE SEPARATE TRINITY PERSONS if "each of the divine Persons can be called "Almighty God" individually, or collectively" ?

Furthermore, I know English is not my native tongue but is this not a syntactic violation?

I mean if there are THREE Persons that are called "Almighty God (individually)" shouldn't there be THREE Almighty Gods and not "One Almighty God"?

I mean, if there's:

1 separate person of the God the Father,

1 separate person of the God the Son and

1 separate person of the God the Holy Ghost, how then 1+1+1 is not = 3?

Of course as usual they will say, but it's not 1+1+1 = 3 but 1x1x1=1! If so, why then multiples of 1 instead of sum of 1+1+1 = 3 or why not 1x3 = 3?

What mathematical rule is this that 1+1+1 is not = 3?

What's the mystery behind the Trinity Triune Separate Person Almighty God concept that you can't use addition of 1+1+1 = 3 or  multiplication of 1x3 = 3?

ANy idea Brother Rando?

So far, no clear cut answers other than "it's a mystery so shut up buddy" is what you can expect as a reply. That I'm sure of!


Sad but true.


In any case, this whole confusing doctrine can be further explained or confused by the Mysterious Athanasian Creed, which according to the Roman Catholic faith confesses:

“ . . . we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Ghost. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Ghost. The Father uncreate, the Son uncreate, and the Holy Ghost uncreate. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Ghost incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Ghost eternal. And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal. As also there are not three incomprehensibles, nor three uncreated, but one uncreated, and one incomprehensible.

“So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Ghost almighty. And yet there are not three almightys, but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God. And yet there are not three Gods, but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords, but one Lord. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord, so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say there be three Gods and three Lords.

“The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created, but begotten. The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts. And in this Trinity none is afore or after other; none is greater or less than another. But the whole three persons are coeternal together, and coequal. So that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity. . . . ”



Which is exactly the same as that advocated by its champion D Holland.

Yet!

Yet when compared with his fellow Trinitarian Richard, it's not "identical" as he claims for in his version of Trinity, Richard said the following:

>>" the Trinity implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in nature, but not in rank within that nature.  The Father sends the Son, and both the Father and Son send the Spirit.  Therefore the Son submits to the will of the Father, and the Holy Spirit submits to the will of both.  Contrary to what Eddie said, every trinitarian will agree with this, and it does not detract from the equality in nature that is professed by them.  This explains how the Father can be Jesus' God, how God can be the head of Christ, and how Jesus can be the Son of God and still have the same nature as God.  Just like he was the Son of Man and still had the nature of man.  

Now, by God saying that there is only one God and there are none formed before Him nor after Him (Is. 43:10), He is being very clear that there is only one being in the nature of God.  Any of those other beings that are called "gods" certainly can't be true gods. "... we all agree that there is one God, and His name is YHWH" <<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/1/welcome-eddie.htm

So if "the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are co-equal in nature, but not in rank within that nature" (per Richard), how could  all Three Persons (in rank) then be "Almighty God" individually, or collectively" per D. Holland?

What a dilemma and a conundrum this Trinity concept is Brother Rando.

Yet, they put their full faith on it - something that they can't even comprehend.

So, any idea who is tricking whom here? Are they both correct? Who knows whose telling the truth?

Well, there's one who knows! Jehovah God himself.

As he tells us:

“. . .“Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. You must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your strength.” (Deuteronomy 6:4, 5)

“. . .Jesus answered: “The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah, and you must love Jehovah your God with your whole heart and with your whole soul and with your whole mind and with your whole strength.’” (Mark 12:29, 30)

“. . .The scribe said to him: “Teacher, you spoke well, in line with truth, ‘He is One, and there is no other besides him’;” (Mark 12:32)


“ I am Jehovah. That is my name; I give my glory to no one else, Nor my praise to graven images.” (Isaiah 42:8)

“. . .And Jehovah will be King over all the earth. In that day Jehovah will be one, and his name one.” (Zechariah 14:9)

“...Jehovah appeared to A′bram and said to him: “I am God Almighty. Walk before me and prove yourself faultless.” (Genesis 17:1)



“And I used to appear to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob as God Almighty, ...” (Exodus 6:3)



“I am the Al′pha and the O·me′ga,” says Jehovah God, “the One who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty.”” (Revelation 1:8)



Nowhere in the Bible can we find Jesus as Almighty God since there's ONLY ONE Almighty God - the Living God Jehovah!

“That people may know that you, whose name is Jehovah, You alone are the Most High over all the earth.” (Psalm 83:18)



The Lord Jesus Christ referred to him as his Father and God who ALONE is to be worshiped (Rev 3:12, Matthew 4:10)!


“. . .there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him.” (1 Corinthians 8:6)


It can't be any clearer than that!!!

Thanks again Brother Rando for allowing me to write to you.

What say you my dear brother, anything to add?



Philia,

Eddie G.

Answer
Hello my dear "Brother"!  Schizophrenic denial non-denial is the poison, "Wormwood" that trinitarians serve up to the masses.  That's why they are on a JWForum claiming to be JW Experts when they are not!  It's their "profile" in denying and slandering Jehovah's Holy Name.  IN the hopes of promoting two "other almighty gods" that are supposingly co-equal as second and third persons of this Trinity being.  The Trinity being is not the almighty god itself, but contains the "great I am" within it's structure?   lol.......  slapping my knee....  

You would think the Great I am would be the Trinity itself and within it, it would contain the three I AM's?  But instead they deny their own man made doctrine claiming the second person of the Trinity being is the "Great I AM" and in doing so, they deny the first person of the Trinity being the "Great I AM" and then they deny that the third person of the Trinity Being is not the "Great I AM" either.  Ummmm...... Claiming the Second Person {the Great I AM} is all of a sudden the Trinity Being itself that was killed???  lol........Schizophrenic indeed.

Then they lie and tell you, they are "Christians" when the Trinity Being itself is the Anti-Christ!  Now that's FUNNY!!!  Honesty is not one of their traits.  Speaking of "honesty" has Derrick or Richard contacted you or have they written a post in admitting their error in "bearing false witness against you"?

"Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son." (1 John 2:22)  The Trinity is all about denying Jesus as the Christ, so really, should you expect an apology from that sort???

Father and the Son, one is greater than the other is it not?  The Son can be exalted but is never equal to his Father, for then the Father would cease to exist.  God has died, is that their demonic message?   You have to believe in the Trinity to be "saved" not Jesus as the Christ?  The three legged stool, take one leg away, it tumbles to the ground.  lol....

Take Care Brother and thank you for exposing their hypocrisy against The Father and the Son, Jehovah God and Jesus Christ.
Brother Rando  

Jehovah`s Witness

All Answers


Answers by Expert:


Ask Experts

Volunteer


Brother Rando

Expertise

Brother Rando is a student of Prophecy and one of Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing with the Faithful and Discreet slave. His interests are directed towards how the time of the end would come about. The earth’s population today is going through a physical, spiritual and emotional tribulation that has been prophesied concerning a time of distress as it enters into a cleansing period of removing wickedness by means of God’s Kingdom. (Daniel 12:1) Brother Rando’s discussions are of keen interest to many who await for God's Kingdom. He asserts that his discussions are just that, and not Prophecies, nor does he make the claim to be inspired. His authority is the Bible. He proclaims the year 2034 to be of very high interest to all. Like a GPS, that gives Insight to location, 2034 allows us to gauge where we are in the stream of time according to God’s Will. According to Brother Rando, the Bible carries two thoughts in it’s passages, one is fleshy and the other is spiritual. Jesus Christ warned Peter of thinking fleshy and that this type of thinking is not from God. (Matthew 16:23) In order to measure time, a method of measurement is needed. Measuring time by “the day” would mean a 24 hour period. However, measuring “the day” spiritually would mean a period of time yet to be revealed using other scripture to interpret the method needed. By looking into the Bible, we can actually determine what God meant by “the day” when looking into his Word on how his Will would come about. As we read (Genesis 2:16-17) the punishment for disobedience was death “in the day”. As time went on, the scriptures do begin to reveal the time frame of “the day”. According to Genesis 5:5, Adam lived 930 years and then he died. Satan who thinks like a man, got it wrong! (Genesis 3:4-5) Why Study the Bible

Experience

In Brother Rando’s research of the Bible, he found scripture does interpret other scripture. The answer to how long a day was, according to God’s Will was found in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. This is vital to gaining understanding in how we are to measure time in God’s view. Spiritually and not fleshy or physical. A day in heavens time is a thousand years to us. It’s by this method we can measure time and where we are in the stream of time of the end. In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Was Jesus indicating that he was the Temple of God, God’s Kingdom? And that the temple would in fact be destroyed or broken down? According to God’s Word, the following scripture is the basis for Salvation. “For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) In order for John 2:19 and Romans 10:9 to come in line, did Jesus utter a prophecy about God's Kingdom since he stated, “I will raise it up”? IF the basis for salvation is that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him up. We can conclude that Jesus did not raise himself up, but it was God that raised him from the dead since he was dead and conscious of nothing at all. (Ecc 9:5) Jesus prophesied that HE would raise God's Kingdom. (Rev 5:10) Jesus was speaking prophetically of raising the temple within the third day of a thousand years. Jesus warned Peter not to think the thoughts of man. (Matthew 16:23) Based on 2 Peter 3:8 we are able to determine the time frame to when God’s Kingdom would be raised up by Jesus Christ. Jesus was put to death on Nisan 14, 33CE. The two days would actually represent two thousand years and we come up with the year 2033. Jesus stated,“in three days I will raise it up.” So the third day is upon us in 2034.

Organizations
“I fully support, acknowledge and cooperate with *The Faithful Steward and Its' Governing Body* of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” I am property of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" that Jesus, my brother, is appointing over his belongings. This Slave is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Earthly Organization known Worldwide as "Jehovah's Witnesses". When the Mountain-like organizations act against God's chosen people after Babylon has been destroyed, Jehovah will slaughter those who are touching the pupils of his eyes. Even though Babylon the Great is spoken as a woman and she has fallen in (Rev. 14:8), the sacred secret is that she is not a woman at all, but the World of False Religion that will be utterly destroyed by the personal hand of Jesus Christ as (King Abaddon) in the coming Great Tribulation never to be found again! (Matthew 24:14)

Publications
Secular Historians point to the Temple in Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. But was Jesus Christ speaking in a physical sense since that Temple is non-existent today? Jehovah Witnesses assert that Jesus under inspiration of Holy Spirit was actually prophesying about his spiritual body as the only means to approach his Heavenly Father. (John 14:6) Not the Temple made by hands or his fleshy body as Christendom claims, but his spiritual body, known as the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:27) This would actually be the Collective Representative of God’s Kingdom in how we can approach the One True God JEHOVAH. Brother Rando is not the first to come up with this time frame. In the first part of 1914, the Bible Students known as International Bible Students Association discussed the “time of trouble” on the printed page called The Bible Students Monthly. Early in 1914, an issue of The Bible Students Monthly was issued with the large bold heading “END OF WORLD IN 1914? Some have quoted the large headline of this tract as proof that Russell was expecting the “end of the world” in 1914. However, such neglect the subheading under the larger headline, which states: “NOT THE VIEW OF PASTOR RUSSELL NOR OF I.B.S.A.” International Bible Students Association: "Nevertheless, when viewed from God’s standpoint, we are still “shortly after” 1914. Although Russell himself did not think the time of trouble would be this long, he did allow that it could be. It is possible that the time allotted for this period is 120 years (1914+120=2034), but that these days will be “cut short” some time before they are allowed to reach their end. We do not put this forth as a “prophecy”, nor would we feel anything was wrong if 2034 came and went and nothing had happened as far the full binding of Satan and the destruction of his empire is concerned. All things are in God’s hands."

Education/Credentials
According to the discussion, 1914 represents the year that the earth would enter into a time of distress and that time limit could very well be 120 years. Which again, brings up the year 2034. The year 1914 is derived by a prophecy of the end of the Gentile times. Brother Rando insists that we should not live by a date, but to use this time to get right with God. Jesus continually pointed that the people who were on the earth when he would raise God’s Temple would be like those people in Noah’s time, taking no note. Where do the 120 years come from? If we read Genesis 6:3, most people think of this scripture in the fleshy sense of man’s lifespan. But could there be a spiritual meaning, giving those with Insight a divine warning? The Bible does say, “make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end.” (Daniel 12:4) Could it be, this world has entered into it’s Last Days in 1914? (1 Timothy 3:1-5) Yet there is another scripture that helps us measure the time. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 it reads, “Even supposing that he has lived a thousand years twice over and yet he has not seen what is good, is it not to just one place that everyone is going?” The chapter talks about vanity and that if a person actually lived two thousand years without God’s Kingdom we are all heading to the same place. Since death was the punishment, we would need God’s Kingdom to conquer death, the place we all are heading. A thousand years twice over is two thousand years. Simple math again brings us to the time of 2034, when the second thousand years has been brought to it’s finish. Could Christ Millennial reign be from 2034 to 3034? We don’t know. Jesus stated, he would raise God’s Temple in the third day, so we can expect God's Kingdom to be fully operating sometime between the years 2034 and 3034. However, Jesus Christ was risen first thing on the very morning in the third day. Most Bible readers are in agreement that Christ does rule for a thousand years.

Awards and Honors
Armageddon is the actual cleansing of the earth from all wickedness. If in the literal sense, it would consist of angels coming down from heaven to bring death to all those rejecting the Kingdom of God. But if it is spiritual, Armageddon could very will take place without the knowledge that it is actually occurring. If this is the case, then Armageddon would commence without the knowledge that the wicked are simply dying off. There seems to be evidence in scripture to how God destroyed the forefather’s in the wilderness. They died off in the wilderness at the hand of the destroyer without knowing of such, as Paul eloquently explains in 1 Corinthians 10:1-10. If.....

©2016 About.com. All rights reserved.