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Jehovah`s Witness/The Trinity Triune Godhead Concept Sham!

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Hello Brother Rando,

Eddie here again. I hope all is well with you and your loved ones.

You know what Brother Rando? It seems to be quite all of the sudden in the Trinitarian front. What happened to the its defenders? What did you do to them? Did they somehow finally realized that their precious Triune godhead - the trinity godhead concept was and is a sham? Might this be the reason why they had to piped down? Or are they just waiting for this topic to die down so that they can launch once again on their personal attacks? Hmmm...well I guess we'll have to wait and see.

But in the meantime, let me please forward to you this latest post as a continuation to the discussion of this SHAM doctrine of theirs, the Trinity Triune godhead concept. Yes Brother Rando a sham doctrine and I will show why is this by using one of Mr. Holland's post. But to spare you the agony, let me tell you now no need to go through it as it's not only very lengthy but full of nonsensical opinions, lies about JWs, misquotes and misapplication of scriptures co-mingled with the truth - so as to make it appear it's the truth and nothing but the truth.  


And for this reason I'll just only touch the relevant matters to prove my point. Like this enlightening but misguided advice below, where D. Holland said:


>>>"...A red flag should always go up, when a person only quotes to you a small part of a verse, and takes it out of context.  That is how nearly all false doctrine is formed. " <<

I say misguided Brother Rando because his own words condemns his very action. By misquoting scriptures and taking "it out of context" he exposed his Trinity doctrine (once again) as a lie, a sham masquerading as truth.

Bold claim? Nah!

It's the truth! THAT IS HOW the Trinity Doctrine was actually FORMED and may I add propped up by its supporters!!!

Case it point (quoted from his post):

D. Holland said:

>>"Actually, Jesus never said that He is “lower than God”.  But I know the passage you are trying to reference, as it is a favorite of Jws, though I have never met one yet who actually can quote the whole verse, or tell you the context in which it appears.  You are referencing John 14:28, where at the end of the verse, Jesus makes the statement “my Father is greater than I.

The taking of the phrase “my Father is greater than I” out of context, is a prime example of JW Scripture twisting.  Have you ever seen or heard a JW quote the entire verse?  Do an experiment…Ask any JW you encounter to tell you right off the top of his head, what the subject of discussion is in John 14, where this statement is made.  And let me know if he/she can do it.  By the way they use this verse so much, you would think the entire chapter is a discourse on the nature of God, and that Jesus is denying any claim to deity.  But if we actually read the chapter, we see such is not the case.  In fact, Jesus’ deity or lack of, is not even under discussion.  Rather, His POSITION as a human is under discussion, in that He is telling the disciples that they should rejoice because He was going back to heaven.  The disciples, understandably, were quite distressed about the fact of His soon ascension back to Heaven, and were not happy about it.  Jesus makes the statement about His Father being “greater”, in the context of WHY they should be happy that He would be ascending.  They would receive the promise of the Holy Spirit, and Jesus would be regaining His position prior to coming to earth.  Just a simple reading of the passage reveals that.

...

So nothing in this passage of John 14:28 is contrary to the Trinity teaching.  We fully acknowledge that, in His humanity, the Father was in a greater position than the Son.   Also, we acknowledge that within the Trinity, the Father exists as Head, and the Son is subject, by virtue of the fact that He was raised in His body and ascended into heaven with that body.   Yet, Jesus clearly possesses the full nature of God, as does the Father."<<<

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2011/2/Jesus-god-2.htm

Notice the slight of hands, the bait and switch and misapplication of the Scriptures Brother Rando.

Without as much as reading the entire verse or introducing the rest of the verses and other supporting scriptures, Mr. Holland gave the scripture its own meaning based on his own understanding of his very confusing Trinity doctrine. And in so doing, he knowingly or unknowingly "twisted the scripture", "taking of the phrase “my Father is greater than I” out of context"!

How?

Well, in a nutshell (based on his cryptic post quoted above) here's what Mr. Holland was trying to tell people to accept:

That is, by making the Lord Jesus Christ appear to say something he didn't say, Mr. Holland want people to believe that he, Jesus is ONLY “lower than God” by virtue of him being a human being (here on earth). So when he said “my Father is greater than I”, Mr. Holland thinks that Jesus was ONLY referring to his human existence! That is, his POSITION as a human being. But when he is back in heaven he retains his "previous POSITION".

What POSITION? I'm not sure as he didn't say but I have a hunch to become "Almighty God as His Father" again.

So in short, in D. Hollands mind, Jesus has two POSITIONS when he said “my Father is greater than I”.

1)“lower than God” here on earth and
2) "Almighty God as His Father" or something of the same "nature" as his Father in heaven.

Now, if my analysis is wrong, he can correct me but based on what he said (quoted above) I believe I'm right on the money.

Notice again (I'll make it clearer as much as I can since his explanation is very cryptic).

That is:

>> "Jesus never said that He is “lower than God”<< in heaven because when >>"He would be ascending" (to heaven) ... "Jesus would be regaining His position prior to coming to earth<<

So Jesus is only “lower than God”  because...

>>His POSITION as a human is under discussion<<

and that when:

>><b>"Jesus makes the statement about His Father being “greater”, in the context of WHY they should be happy that He would be ascending."
<<


So if you follow D. Holland's CONTEXT - "Jesus makes the statement about His Father being “greater”in the context of WHY they should be happy that He would be ascending."

It has nothing to do at all with the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ was telling the truth - that he is “lower than God” whether in heaven or on earth, before coming to earth and after leaving earth.

But now comes the hard part for which I believe NO Trinitarian can answer.


That is, how in the world does Jesus' statement at John 14:28 “my Father is greater than I" ONLY meant here on earth?

Why can't this statement never include heavenward?

The answer is obvious Brother Rando.

To Trinitarians, it can't include the heavens because it will turn the Trinity Triune godhead concept on its head. It will show that the doctrine is a highly flawed concept, a SHAM!

Unfortunately, by so doing, by placing their/his own ideas and opinions on the matter, they, Mr. Holland put himself in OPPOSITION with the scriptures, thereby putting himself ahead of Jesus and most of all ahead of the true living God Jehovah. Not only that, they misled those who listen to them.

So in a sense he stand condemned by his own words: "Scripture Twisting"  - to make it comply to his own unscriptural Trinity doctrine. It can't be any clearer than that, otherwise the alternative is to present John 14:28 in its full context.

He will not admit to this of course, but it doesn't matter because it is what it is.

But why must he do this? For what reason?

Simple, it's to discredit Jehovah's Witnesses -  his true goal and motive for being in the JW Forum.

But what then is the true meaning of what the Lord Jesus Christ's said at John 14:28?

THIS:

In its TRUE CONTEXT (on this subject) what John 14:28 is telling us is this, that Jesus is going back to the Father because he is ALWAYS SUBJECT to his God and Father whether in heaven or on earth, before coming down to earth and after leaving it.

And by Jesus referring and properly addressing his Father and our Father as his God and our God , it clearly shows that he is INDEED subject to his God and Father whether in heaven or on earth, before coming down to earth and after leaving it.

To quote the scripture in proper context along with other supporting texts:

Jesus said:

"In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?" [Jhn 14:2 ESV]
"And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also." [Jhn 14:3 ESV]
"And you know the way to where I am going."" [Jhn 14:4 ESV]
""Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father." [Jhn 14:12 ESV]
"Jesus answered him, "If anyone loves me, he will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him." [Jhn 14:23 ESV]
"Whoever does not love me does not keep my words. And the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me." [Jhn 14:24 ESV]
""These things I have spoken to you while I am still with you." [Jhn 14:25 ESV]
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you." [Jhn 14:26 ESV]
"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your hearts be troubled, neither let them be afraid." [Jhn 14:27 ESV]
"You heard me say to you, 'I am going away, and I will come to you.' If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I." [Jhn 14:28 ESV]
"And now I have told you before it takes place, so that when it does take place you may believe." [Jhn 14:29 ESV]
"I will no longer talk much with you, for the ruler of this world is coming. He has no claim on me," [Jhn 14:30 ESV]
"but I do as the Father has commanded me, so that the world may know that I love the Father. Rise, let us go from here." [Jhn 14:31 ESV]


So again (IN proper CONTEXT of the subject being discussed) what does the following statements exactly mean?

"the word that you hear is not mine but the Father's who sent me."
"If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."
"but I do as the Father has commanded me"

Just as the Sender is Greater than the one sent, thus Jesus as (the one sent by his Father) is “lower than God”.

Leading us to see and conclude that the Lord Jesus Christ is INDEED “lower than God”, ALWAYS SUBJECT to his God and Father whether in heaven or on earth, before coming down to earth and after leaving it.


Notice also the following scriptures in support of John 14:28: "the Father is greater than I."

“I have glorified you on the earth, having finished the work you have given me to do.” (John 17:4)

“For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.” (John 3:17)

“But I have the witness greater than that of John, for the very works that my Father assigned me to accomplish, the works themselves that I am doing, bear witness about me that the Father dispatched me.” (John 5:36)

“because I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me.” (John 6:38)

“because I have not spoken out of my own impulse, but the Father himself who sent me has given me a commandment as to what to tell and what to speak. 50 Also, I know that his commandment means everlasting life. Therefore the things I speak, just as the Father has told me [them], so I speak [them].”” (John 12:49, 50)

On earth and after ascending to the heavens the Lord Jesus Christ called his Father his God, indicating that he is "lower than God”. His apostles had the same understanding.


"And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God , and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth." [Jhn 17:3 NLT]

“Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and YOUR Father and to my God and YOUR God.’<b/>”” (John 20:17)

“that with one accord YOU may with one mouth glorify <b>the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.”
(Romans 15:6)

In heaven at the right hand side of Jehovah God, the Lord Jesus Christ also referred to his Father as his God :

““‘The one that conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God , and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God , the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God , and that new name of mine.” (Revelation 3:12)

It can't be anymore clearer than these!!!

That is, that Jehovah God - the True Living God as Jesus testified "is greater than I am" - whether in heaven or on earth, before coming down to earth and after leaving it.

As to "deity" now that's another interesting topic to discuss - perhaps some other time.

Note:

Jesus never claimed to be The Almighty God-deity but he is a "divine one", that is of the same substance as the Father and the holy angels - they are all spirits in nature.




Supplemental Info:

Christendom has Triune godhead consisting of 1) God the Father 2) God the Son, and 3) God the Holy Ghost.


In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Egypt had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Horus, (2) Osiris, and (3) Isis.

In the 2nd century B.C.E. (two centuries before Christ came to the earth), Babylon had a triad of gods consisting of (1) Ishtar, (2) Sin, and (3) Shamash.

In the 1st century C.E., Palmyra, which was an ancient city in Syria, had a triune god which consisted of (1) moon god, (2) Lord of Heavens, and (3) sun god.

Any idea where Christendom got her Triune godhead concept?


Philia,
Eddie G.

Answer
The SNAKE!!
The SNAKE!!  
Hello my dear Brother Eddie!

I hope you and your family are safe as you continue your Ministry in exposing Apostates and Opposers like Holland on the JWForum.  They are just waiting for this topic to die down so that they can launch their personal attacks once again!  

There is no such thing as an honest trinitarian.  I believe the majority of Holland's posts are from himself. He simply lies and slanders against Holy Spirit.  He is gathering in the same manner Satan gathered angels to set up his own kingdom which is now dissolving.  Deity is another "term" not found in the trinity doctrine as he claims.  Just another lie trying to sell modalistic views.  

What a brilliant "post" of conquering the evil trinity with the good news!  He claims firstborn doesn't mean firstborn, beginning doesn't mean beginning, and greater doesn't mean greater.  What he accuses me of doing, Holland is actually doing!!  lol........

He has no choice, but to replace the word of God with a "SHAM".  Holland is writing himself again, so here comes more Wormwood.....

Keep up the great work in keeping Holland slithering body to the fire as you bring out his dishonest conduct.  But what else would you expect from the demons?  Honesty??  lol........

What has three parts, are co-equal, co-existent, and no part is greater or lesser than the other??  The SNAKE!!  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gadsden_flag

Take Care Brother!
Brother Rando  

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Brother Rando

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Brother Rando is a student of Prophecy and one of Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing with the Faithful and Discreet slave. His interests are directed towards how the time of the end would come about. The earth’s population today is going through a physical, spiritual and emotional tribulation that has been prophesied concerning a time of distress as it enters into a cleansing period of removing wickedness by means of God’s Kingdom. (Daniel 12:1) Brother Rando’s discussions are of keen interest to many who await for God's Kingdom. He asserts that his discussions are just that, and not Prophecies, nor does he make the claim to be inspired. His authority is the Bible. He proclaims the year 2034 to be of very high interest to all. Like a GPS, that gives Insight to location, 2034 allows us to gauge where we are in the stream of time according to God’s Will. According to Brother Rando, the Bible carries two thoughts in it’s passages, one is fleshy and the other is spiritual. Jesus Christ warned Peter of thinking fleshy and that this type of thinking is not from God. (Matthew 16:23) In order to measure time, a method of measurement is needed. Measuring time by “the day” would mean a 24 hour period. However, measuring “the day” spiritually would mean a period of time yet to be revealed using other scripture to interpret the method needed. By looking into the Bible, we can actually determine what God meant by “the day” when looking into his Word on how his Will would come about. As we read (Genesis 2:16-17) the punishment for disobedience was death “in the day”. As time went on, the scriptures do begin to reveal the time frame of “the day”. According to Genesis 5:5, Adam lived 930 years and then he died. Satan who thinks like a man, got it wrong! (Genesis 3:4-5) Why Study the Bible

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In Brother Rando’s research of the Bible, he found scripture does interpret other scripture. The answer to how long a day was, according to God’s Will was found in Psalms 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8. This is vital to gaining understanding in how we are to measure time in God’s view. Spiritually and not fleshy or physical. A day in heavens time is a thousand years to us. It’s by this method we can measure time and where we are in the stream of time of the end. In answer Jesus said to them: “Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” (John 2:19) Was Jesus indicating that he was the Temple of God, God’s Kingdom? And that the temple would in fact be destroyed or broken down? According to God’s Word, the following scripture is the basis for Salvation. “For if you publicly declare that ‘word in your own mouth,’ that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.” (Romans 10:9) In order for John 2:19 and Romans 10:9 to come in line, did Jesus utter a prophecy about God's Kingdom since he stated, “I will raise it up”? IF the basis for salvation is that Jesus is Lord and that God raised him up. We can conclude that Jesus did not raise himself up, but it was God that raised him from the dead since he was dead and conscious of nothing at all. (Ecc 9:5) Jesus prophesied that HE would raise God's Kingdom. (Rev 5:10) Jesus was speaking prophetically of raising the temple within the third day of a thousand years. Jesus warned Peter not to think the thoughts of man. (Matthew 16:23) Based on 2 Peter 3:8 we are able to determine the time frame to when God’s Kingdom would be raised up by Jesus Christ. Jesus was put to death on Nisan 14, 33CE. The two days would actually represent two thousand years and we come up with the year 2033. Jesus stated,“in three days I will raise it up.” So the third day is upon us in 2034.

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“I fully support, acknowledge and cooperate with *The Faithful Steward and Its' Governing Body* of Jehovah’s Witnesses.” I am property of the "Faithful and Discreet Slave" that Jesus, my brother, is appointing over his belongings. This Slave is the Governing Body of Jehovah's Earthly Organization known Worldwide as "Jehovah's Witnesses". When the Mountain-like organizations act against God's chosen people after Babylon has been destroyed, Jehovah will slaughter those who are touching the pupils of his eyes. Even though Babylon the Great is spoken as a woman and she has fallen in (Rev. 14:8), the sacred secret is that she is not a woman at all, but the World of False Religion that will be utterly destroyed by the personal hand of Jesus Christ as (King Abaddon) in the coming Great Tribulation never to be found again! (Matthew 24:14)

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Secular Historians point to the Temple in Jerusalem being destroyed in 70 AD by the Romans. But was Jesus Christ speaking in a physical sense since that Temple is non-existent today? Jehovah Witnesses assert that Jesus under inspiration of Holy Spirit was actually prophesying about his spiritual body as the only means to approach his Heavenly Father. (John 14:6) Not the Temple made by hands or his fleshy body as Christendom claims, but his spiritual body, known as the Body of Christ. (1 Cor 12:27) This would actually be the Collective Representative of God’s Kingdom in how we can approach the One True God JEHOVAH. Brother Rando is not the first to come up with this time frame. In the first part of 1914, the Bible Students known as International Bible Students Association discussed the “time of trouble” on the printed page called The Bible Students Monthly. Early in 1914, an issue of The Bible Students Monthly was issued with the large bold heading “END OF WORLD IN 1914? Some have quoted the large headline of this tract as proof that Russell was expecting the “end of the world” in 1914. However, such neglect the subheading under the larger headline, which states: “NOT THE VIEW OF PASTOR RUSSELL NOR OF I.B.S.A.” International Bible Students Association: "Nevertheless, when viewed from God’s standpoint, we are still “shortly after” 1914. Although Russell himself did not think the time of trouble would be this long, he did allow that it could be. It is possible that the time allotted for this period is 120 years (1914+120=2034), but that these days will be “cut short” some time before they are allowed to reach their end. We do not put this forth as a “prophecy”, nor would we feel anything was wrong if 2034 came and went and nothing had happened as far the full binding of Satan and the destruction of his empire is concerned. All things are in God’s hands."

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According to the discussion, 1914 represents the year that the earth would enter into a time of distress and that time limit could very well be 120 years. Which again, brings up the year 2034. The year 1914 is derived by a prophecy of the end of the Gentile times. Brother Rando insists that we should not live by a date, but to use this time to get right with God. Jesus continually pointed that the people who were on the earth when he would raise God’s Temple would be like those people in Noah’s time, taking no note. Where do the 120 years come from? If we read Genesis 6:3, most people think of this scripture in the fleshy sense of man’s lifespan. But could there be a spiritual meaning, giving those with Insight a divine warning? The Bible does say, “make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end.” (Daniel 12:4) Could it be, this world has entered into it’s Last Days in 1914? (1 Timothy 3:1-5) Yet there is another scripture that helps us measure the time. In Ecclesiastes 6:6 it reads, “Even supposing that he has lived a thousand years twice over and yet he has not seen what is good, is it not to just one place that everyone is going?” The chapter talks about vanity and that if a person actually lived two thousand years without God’s Kingdom we are all heading to the same place. Since death was the punishment, we would need God’s Kingdom to conquer death, the place we all are heading. A thousand years twice over is two thousand years. Simple math again brings us to the time of 2034, when the second thousand years has been brought to it’s finish. Could Christ Millennial reign be from 2034 to 3034? We don’t know. Jesus stated, he would raise God’s Temple in the third day, so we can expect God's Kingdom to be fully operating sometime between the years 2034 and 3034. However, Jesus Christ was risen first thing on the very morning in the third day. Most Bible readers are in agreement that Christ does rule for a thousand years.

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Armageddon is the actual cleansing of the earth from all wickedness. If in the literal sense, it would consist of angels coming down from heaven to bring death to all those rejecting the Kingdom of God. But if it is spiritual, Armageddon could very will take place without the knowledge that it is actually occurring. If this is the case, then Armageddon would commence without the knowledge that the wicked are simply dying off. There seems to be evidence in scripture to how God destroyed the forefather’s in the wilderness. They died off in the wilderness at the hand of the destroyer without knowing of such, as Paul eloquently explains in 1 Corinthians 10:1-10. If.....

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