Jehovah`s Witness/You, Derrick..Trinity and the brain washing of JWS
Hello Richard, I am Rev. Darryl Murphy. For the past 2 weeks, i have been reading the back and forth about the trinity, Derrick Holland; and can no longer take it.
Now before I begin, It is well known that I am not a "Trinitarian", at least in the "traditional sense".( will explain if you like)but i find it quite interesting, in fact mind boggling, that DW,Rando, Eddie G etc. do not even understand that the arguments they present are not even against Trinitarian Doctrine..but Modalism, Sabellianism.
Even more mind boggling..is the fact that as they write many responses, often to themselves(Rando, DW), against the Trinity, although really against modalism, they and those that support them, don't even realize they practice a form of such belief themselves. Example: JWS believe that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, Abaddon(Appollyon), and The Son of God.
My question to them would be: Is Jesus all three but distinct from one another; or Is Jesus all three operating in different capacities, while still being one?
Now where there are "Trinitarians" and "Non Trinitarians' in the scholarly community, we argue not "Trinity" vs "Non Trinity" but is Jesus the Jehovah of the Bible. This is where the JW would find themselves far short of understanding.
I didnt want to be lengthy, but I find it impossible not to be. If we may, let us look at a few passages of scripture:
King James Version (KJV)
18 And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
18 Afterward, Jehovah+ appeared to him among the big trees of Mamre+ while he was sitting at the entrance of the tent during the hottest part of the day. 2 He looked up and saw three men standing some distance from him.+ When he saw them, he ran from the entrance of the tent to meet them, and he bowed down to the ground. 3 Then he said: Jehovah, if I have found favor in your eyes, please do not pass by your servant
Above we see the KJV and NWT. Whereas it states "Lord" in the KJV, it states "Jehovah" in the NWT. That being said, it should be clear that it was "Jehovah" that met Abraham correct?
Ok..let us look further into the chapter:
KJV:13 And the Lord said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?
14 Is any thing too hard for the Lord? At the time appointed I will return unto thee, according to the time of life, and Sarah shall have a son.
13 Then Jehovah said to Abraham: Why did Sarah laugh and say, Am I really going to give birth even though I am old? 14 Is anything too extraordinary for Jehovah?+ I will return to you next year at this appointed time, and Sarah will have a son.
Now it clearly states;according to the NWT that "Jehovah said" correct? so there is no confusion on how said what. In VS 14 we have "Jehovah" saying "I will return" correct? We wont even get into the "Three" answering when "one" was being addressed etc etc.
Where am I going with this? John 8:56
King James Version (KJV)
56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.
Ask a JW to explain this...and when they answer,,take them to Gen 18 and tell them to explan that. It will be found a lot of synergistic logic and Subjective theology.
Jesus states very clearly:
King James Version (KJV)
39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Now I am quoting these with no explanation for a reason.
Finally to address the subject heading: You and Derrick:
Derrick knows me...and You are not familiar with me...so please take this in love:
1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Remember when you are conversing with some of the JWS, they are brainwashed into thinking that there are only a few chosen people with the charge of feeding them. They are taught to totally trust in the Doctrines they produce without question, so much as they ignore or simply over look the meaning of 2 Tim 2:15.
The issue of the Trinity is a "Spiritual" issue and cannot be known by the logic of man. JWS seek to appeal to ones intellect and logic...there are some things that cant be understood that way. I will leave you with an example
King James Version (KJV)
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
May God Keep and Bless you:
Rev. Darryl Murphy
Greetings Rev. Murphy,
Thank you for your letter. Actually, I am quite familiar with the dialogues that you have had here and on the Christian side of the allexperts forum. I have a very high respect for your writings, not because I agree or disagree with you, but because they are laid out with a true comprehension of an opposing side's beliefs. You seem to truly grasp why the argument exists, the basis for both sides, and have made your own choice. I can respect that even if we do not always arrive at the same conclusion.
First, let me say thank you for bringing out the fact that they are not actually arguing the Trinity. That has been my contention all along. All I have asked of them is to represent the trinitarian belief with accuracy when arguing against it. That is the most frustrating aspect of the entire discussion.
I have never considered the belief of Jesus as Michael/Abaddon/Son of God in the way that you presented. That is a fascinating question indeed. Perhaps one of the JW experts would like to tackle that. I am curious as to how they would answer.
You also hit the nail on the head when you said, "Now where there are "Trinitarians" and "Non Trinitarians' in the scholarly community, we argue not "Trinity" vs "Non Trinity" but is Jesus the Jehovah of the Bible." That is EXACTLY the question that is at stake. I put together a packet for a class on understanding the Trinity. I would be happy to send it to you for your thoughts. Just e-mail me at firstname.lastname@example.org. I copied and pasted part of that packet here... http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2014/1/welcome-eddie.htm
It specifically addresses many parallel verses of Jehovah/Jesus.
I have brought up several instances of who appeared to OT people before. Again, I appreciate the example you brought up and would also be interested in a response from a JW expert regarding John 8:56 in relation to the Genesis passages.
I would agree that in the case of the ones that you mentioned in your letter, they simply do not see because it has not been revealed to them. In my private (now public) letter to Eddie, I confessed that I thought I understood the Trinity, but really didn't, until...well...I did. You said, "The issue of the Trinity is a "Spiritual" issue and cannot be known by the logic of man." I mostly agree with you. In retrospect, there is plenty of logic based on scriptures to warrant the doctrine. The one logical hurdle I have encountered is whether one being must equal one person or whether God could reveal one being (Jehovah)as three distinct persons. I see scriptures as pointing to the latter. I will whole-heartedly agree that coming to that point of understanding takes much prayer, humility, and wisdom provided only by God.
Thank you again for your letter. Please feel free to write anytime.