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QUESTION: If Jesus rose with a fleshy PERFECT body, how could he have print of nails?

John 20
20:25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the LORD. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.


As about the other question concerning Heaven and Earth, I dont understand why most evangelists dont think, except reading the Bible word by word. I dont say to make crazy ideas from the text.

You said ALL christians go to Heaven. Where does the Scriptures say this? Then, if all go to Heaven, which is the meaning amd purpose of a new Earth, if noone dwells on Earth? Will animals live on Earth? Lol.

Something else. Dont be afraid to think. Cosmology, theology, anthropology, eschatology, life after death are not a matter of salvation but discussion. JWs do not sin if they make ideas from the text. They would sin only if they reject Jesus. Do you claim that the Bible is a book of doctrines, and theology is not open to debate?

The reading of the Bible has revealed to me that its not a book that tell us about the nature of man, God, what happens after death etc. Its a book that talks about man's restoration through Jesus Christ. Its involved with the other interesting subjects too, but it seems God does not give us EXACT and UNQUESTIONED knowledge on these fields. Thats why there are thousands interpretations and sadly thousands of christian groups which hate each other because of different interpretation.

Have a good day

ANSWER: Hello, Christaras.  How did I know this was going to be yet another follow-up, before I even opened the question?

I honestly am not wanting to seem short or impatient, but part of the problem here, and the reason why I keep telling you we have exhausted these subjects already, is because they are repeat questions.  We are going in circles.  You and I had a pretty in depth discussion on the Heaven/Earth topic already, and by your questions now, it appears you did not actually read my answer.  Please allow me to give you the link for you to read, where you and I already had this exact discussion.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Jehovah-s-Witness-1617/2013/2/man-destination.htm

Now, in the last few days, I have mentioned at least twice, that there will be a "new earth wherein dwelleth righteousness".  But even after saying that, and giving you the Scriptural reference, you come back with this question....

"Then, if all go to Heaven, which is the meaning amd purpose of a new Earth, if noone dwells on Earth? Will animals live on Earth? Lol."

There's no "lol", because nobody said that no one dwells on the earth but animals.  Again, I have no idea where you got that from my words.  I am not sure what those 3 words "wherein dwelleth righteousness" mean to you, but I think you would be hard pressed to argue that animals are "righteous".  So obviously, that is not what I said.

I also pointed out the "new heavens", as described in Revelation 21.  I think you are not making the connection, and that is why I would like you to read the above link again.  The "New Jerusalem" will be God's dwelling place at that point in time, for all eternity.  The description of it is pretty self-explanatory....There will be a new heavens, and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Now, very quickly, let me address your questions again....

"If Jesus rose with a fleshy PERFECT body, how could he have print of nails?"

Not sure what one has to do with the other.  The real question here, is if Jesus did NOT rise in the same fleshly body that was crucified, then why would He have had nail prints at all??

There is no contradiction between His resurrected body being glorified to never die again, but at the same time, retaining the prints as a reminder of the price paid for our redemption.  If He rose as a spirit, then there is no valid reason at all, for the nail prints to be there...ESPECIALLY if that body had been "dissolved" or "disintegrated", as JWs believe.


"You said ALL christians go to Heaven. Where does the Scriptures say this?"

All Christians who die NOW, before the return of Christ, and before the "new heavens and the new earth", go to Heaven.

2 Cor. 5:1-4-  "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life."



2 Cor. 5:8-  "We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord."


Phil. 1:21-23- "For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not.

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:"




1 Thess. 4:13-18-  "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Wherefore comfort one another with these words"  


In addition, you have Jesus Himself PRAYING that all His followers would end up where He is....

John 17:24-  "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world."

It would seem pointless for Jesus to have prayed this, had He thought that there were 2 different destinies for Christians.

Besides....Where is the Scripture that says that only 144,000 Christians go to Heaven, and the rest have no hope of ever seeing Christ, will be separated from the 144,000 forever, and have no Mediator?  I doubt you will find it.


"Something else. Dont be afraid to think."

Well, thank you for that advice.  But I don't belong to a religion that tells its followers to "Avoid Independent Thinking"...So perhaps you should write that advice to the JWs, not me.  I have actually done a great deal of thinking in my life, and that is why I hold the positions I do today.  Not that I may not prove myself wrong on some point at some time, after further study of the Scriptures....But I assure you I believe there are Scriptural AND intellectual reasons for believing in God, and the inspiration of the Scriptures.


"Cosmology, theology, anthropology, eschatology, life after death are not a matter of salvation but discussion. JWs do not sin if they make ideas from the text. They would sin only if they reject Jesus."

I disagree 100%.  Now, I understand that not all Christians may agree on the timing of Christ's return, or some Bible teaching such as that.  However, JWs DO sin when they ADD ideas to the text, which not only are not there, but are actually contrary to other passages.  Perhaps you aren't aware that adding to, and taking away from the Word of God, is a sin with a promise of judgment?

And I was struck by how you said that "life after death" is not a matter of salvation....Sir, what exactly do you think salvation IS, if not a belief in being saved and having everlasting life after death?

"Do you claim that the Bible is a book of doctrines, and theology is not open to debate?"

When the Scripture speaks clearly on a fundamental doctrine, there is no room for debate.  Of course the Bible is a Book of doctrines.  Where else would a Christian GET their doctrine?

2 Tim. 3:15-17- " And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."


So yes, the Bible is certainly a Book of doctrine, and much, much more.

It seems you are implying that rejecting Jesus is the only sin one can commit, and that adding unscriptural ideas and tampering with God's text, isn't a sin.  If that's what you're saying, I would disagree.

But its funny that you ask me if I believe that theology is open to debate...Have you asked a JW here, if THEY think theology is open to debate?  For instance, why not ask Rando if he thinks a person MUST agree that Jesus is Michael, or if its ok if they don't.  Go ahead....


"The reading of the Bible has revealed to me that its not a book that tell us about the nature of man, God, what happens after death etc."

What Bible have you been reading, exactly?  My Bible tells me about ALL of the above things.  I wouldn't have any idea about those things, if not for what the Bible tells us.  In fact, the Bible's teachings on those things, is normally the exact OPPOSITE of what the world and society thinks.  For instance, on the 3 topics you just mentioned, the nature of man, the nature of God, and what happens when we die....

Society thinks that man is basically good, but the Bible teaches man is basically wicked and sinful by nature.

Society has tried to re-invent God into its own image, so that He is tolerant of sin, accepting of sexual perversion, and understanding towards those who live their lives as if He doesn't even exist.  However, the Bible reveals a God Who is willing to forgive and save any man WHEN they repent and come to Him, but also that He is holy, just, and will judge the wicked for their sin, and is perfectly right in doing so.  

Society believes that when you die, that is it, or some facets of society have come to believe that we are reincarnated, or float around in a state of limbo, and speak to our loved ones on earth through mediums.  However, the Bible reveals that all humans who die, either go to Heaven, or to Hell, based on what they have done with the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.  Pretty simple.   

"Its a book that talks about man's restoration through Jesus Christ."

Yes, it does that too.  But we can't just pick and choose the parts we like, and ignore the rest.  It also is a Book that reveals all of the other things you claimed it is not about.  I would maintain that we would have to have some sort of understanding of those other topics, to understand our need to be "restored" to God in the first place.  Since most of society has no concept of us being sinful and fallen creatures, separated from a holy God by our sin, it follows that they do not perceive the need to be "restored", either.  


"Its involved with the other interesting subjects too, but it seems God does not give us EXACT and UNQUESTIONED knowledge on these fields."

Glad to see that you at least acknowledge that it does speak of those things, however, you are incorrect that God does not give us exact knowledge on these fields.  Now granted, He hasn't told us EVERYTHING that awaits the child of God in His presence, but He HAS told us that the child of God will BE in His presence.  He didn't leave that one open to debate.  He hasn't told us ALL of the details of being reunited with our loved ones who were saved, but He HAS promised us that we will be reunited with them.  Again, not up for debate.

Nor has He given us permission to pick apart and try to analyze what He has already told us as fact, so that we can sit around and decide if we really want to believe it or not.  As a Christian, I don't call the shots...He does.  I don't tell Him the way it is, He tells me.  I mean, who is running the show, here?

"Thats why there are thousands interpretations and sadly thousands of christian groups which hate each other because of different interpretation."

No Sir, the reason for that, is that some people simply refuse to let the Bible be the FINAL authority.  They would rather ask "Why would" or "How could" questions, instead of just seeing what God says about it.  That is where people get in trouble....By pitting their own intellect and reason, with what God has said.  That is NOT saying we should not use the logic God gave us...We simply shouldn't presume to use it in a manner contrary to the reason He gave it to us.

Now Christaras, these questions for the past several months have been very mind-stimulating, but as I said before, they are also repeat questions.  And each time one is answered, it simply leads to 10 more.  Please read the link given which already dealt with the heaven/earth discussion, and the Scriptures given, as well.

Hope this helps.

Derrick








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---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Jws do not add ideas TO the text. They make ideas FROM the text(no matter true or false). Yes, I know they are egotists claiming they have the only correct interpretation and true understanding, but they are not the only ones. Maybe you could say they are the worst fanatics, but I have seen people that are equally hateful with other views, as if the people with the different views are agents of Satan.

1)Do you consider topics of cosmology, theology, anthropology, eschatology as a matter of salvation? What if I believe that man does not live after death but waits for a resurrection? Am I going to "Hell"? What if I believe that man is only flesh without any soul or spirit? What if I believe that God is not a "Trinity"?

2)If you are 100% sure that God gives us clear info on these topics(and theres no room for debate), would you mind if I ask you some questions upon these, or are you tired of the "same" questions?

Answer
Yes, JWs add ideas to the text.  For a man who prides himself on “logic”, I found this statement to be quite illogical, when you wrote….

“They make ideas FROM the text(no matter true or false).”

Surely you see the problems inherent in that statement.  First, you cannot get an idea FROM the text, unless the idea is present IN the text.  Just like I cannot catch fish FROM a lake, unless there are fish IN the lake to catch.  I cannot get a loaf of bread FROM the grocery store, unless the store HAS a loaf of bread.  Same with getting an idea FROM the text….The idea would first have to be IN the text, and if it isn’t, then it is an idea added TO the text….Just like I said.

But that’s not all.  You imply the idea FROM the text (implying its IN the text), may be “false”.  Not if its IN the text, it isn’t false.  The only way its false, is if its added TO the text.  See, I can be pretty logical myself.  You can only get an idea FROM the text, that is IN the text.  Otherwise, you are super-imposing your idea into the text.  As a Greek, I would’ve thought you would be familiar with the terms “exegesis” and “eisegesis”, and also would know the difference between the two.

Yes, JWs add interpretations into the  text.   For instance, the topic we just discussed…only 144,000 people going to heaven.  No such Scripture in the entire Word of God, even hints at such a thing.  No such Scripture contains such an idea, to derive it FROM the text.  In fact, the entire description of the “great crowd” in Revelation 7:9-17, clearly shows it to be a Heavenly location….That is the only idea you can derive FROM the text…Any other idea has to be imposed into the text.

Another example, from right here on this board.  Awhile back, we had some very interesting and in depth discussions on the nature of Jesus’ resurrected body.  I asked the question, based on Matthew 28:5-6...“WHAT DOES THE EMPTY TOMB PROVE TO YOU” “.  Now the obvious idea that you get FROM the text, is that the empty tomb proves that Jesus’ body wasn’t there, because it was risen.  That one is easy….the angel even told it to us explicitly.  However, a JW made the comment that the empty tomb proves that “God dissolved Jesus’ body”.  

C’mon Christaras, do you really want to tell me that this idea was not imposed into the text, but was rather drawn OUT of it?  You really want to tell me that JWs don't add interpretations to the text?  There isn't any notion of and "dissolving" going on in Matthew 28:5-6.  Now, the idea that the tomb was empty because Jesus' body had RISEN...Well, that idea is right there in the text, plain as day.  

Nice try, anyway.


YOU:  “Maybe you could say they are the worst fanatics, but I have seen people that are equally hateful with other views, as if the people with the different views are agents of Satan.”

Okay, so there are others who do it too.  Nobody said there weren’t.  But how does that justify the JWs doing it?  How does that justify their lying, and their rudeness to people, for not merely accepting what they say, without question?

Yes, they believe I am an “agent of Satan” for insisting that we can know the truth from God’s Word without the help of the Organization, and they believe you are one, because you dare not join them without question, as well.


YOU:  “1)Do you consider topics of cosmology, theology, anthropology, eschatology as a matter of salvation? What if I believe that man does not live after death but waits for a resurrection? Am I going to "Hell"? What if I believe that man is only flesh without any soul or spirit? What if I believe that God is not a "Trinity"?

Again, the eschatology part was already answered in my last response, so that is a repeat question.  As for cosmology, I will say this….If you believe in macro-evolution, or that the universe came about by a big bang 4.6 billion years ago, you cannot at the same time, be a Bible-believing Christian.  Something will have to give.  You will either have to bend the theory of evolution, or you will twist the Bible to try and make it fit in with the theory.  The 2 are mutually exclusive.  Besides, the theory of evolution is ridiculous and full of holes anyway, so I see no need to change a perfectly good Bible, in order to accommodate it.

As for theology, I already answered that one for you.  I said there might be some things that are not clearly established and outlined in the Scriptures, that there might be room for discussion on.  But not all things.  For instance, if a liberal “Christian” claims that Jesus was not born miraculously of a virgin, then there is no room for discussion or Christian fellowship with that person….they are an infidel.  I would treat them with kindness and respect, yes...Just as I would any lost person whom I work with, or see in the store.  But I would not ever, under ANY circumstances, acknowledge their heretical viewpoint as being Biblically valid, or a possible "correct interpretation FROM the text".  If someone claims that Jesus’ blood alone does not pay for our sins and is not enough to save us, then they are preaching a false Gospel, and there there is no room for debate on issues such as that.  

Some issues are not so serious.  Awhile back at my church, we were doing a Bible study on the Book of Jonah, and the question came up about whether or not Jonah actually died while in the belly of the “fish”.   When this discussion came up, my pastor and I actually disagreed (and still do), on that issue.  Now, I am 150% convinced that I am right and he is wrong, and he is equally convinced that he is right, and I am wrong.  But does the fact that he believes one way and I believe another, mean that one of us is not a Christian, and does not love God?  Of course not…That is not a salvation issue.  Jonah's dying or not dying, has nothing to do with coming to Christ and being born again by faith in His shed blood.  It is not an issue where the Bible makes a clear and plain statement.  So, there’s room for discussion and opinion.  The same with eating meats offered to idols, and regarding certain days as holy unto the Lord….Its up to the conscience.

But when it comes to arguing and trying to disprove clear Bible doctrines, then that is dangerous ground.  The Bible speaks of ones like that, and I am concerned that you are in this group, Christaras.....

2 Tim. 3:7-  "Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth."


And Peter, speaking of Paul's writings, made this statement....


2 Peter 3:16-  "As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction."


Just be very careful WHY you are hesitating to believe the plain statements of Scripture, and instead, would rather place your own thoughts and reasonings alongside it.

Anthropology?  Again, are you referring to evolution?  If you think man has an ape-like ancestor, then you are denying the CLEAR teachings of the Scriptures.  So to believe that, you would not be a Bible-believing Christian.  If that is even what you are talking about.

In short, its WHY you have a certain view.  A person does not have to have all their doctrine straight in order to get saved and become a follower of Christ.  That will come as they read the Word, and grow in the knowledge of God.  But to tell people they can’t even be BAPTIZED until they have undergone a process of study (like JWs do), is COMPLETELY unscriptural, and has NO Biblical support.  In the Bible, a man could hear about Christ, come to Christ, and be baptized….all in the SAME day (Acts 8).

However, a person who does come to Christ, should want to learn the Scriptures, and happily accept and believe what they say…on ANY subject.  Like Rando loves to lie and claim that we think that to be saved, one must “think of the Trinity”.  That is a lie, and he knows it.  I have prayed with countless people for salvation, and not once have I ever, nor have I ever witnessed anyone else, praying with a person wanting to receive Christ, and telling them that they must “think of the Trinity”.  In fact, when I’m leading some to Christ, the Trinity is never mentioned.

In fact, I didn't believe in the Trinity for SEVERAL months after being saved.  But the more I read the Scriptures, I could no longer deny that they really did teach that Jesus was God, and the Holy Spirit is a living Personal Being, and God Himself.  To deny it after I saw it in the Scriptures, would be very dangerous.  There is a BIG difference between simply not believing in something because you're ignorant of the facts, and continuing to refuse to believe it, even after you have seen it in God's Word.  

Again…Its WHY you don’t believe something.  You ask….

“What if I believe that man does not live after death but waits for a resurrection? Am I going to "Hell"?

You will go to Hell for not being born again into God’s family, by faith in the blood of Jesus Christ.  

And again, your question needs clarification…Its WHY you don’t believe it.  If you spend your entire life being taught “soul sleep”, but heard the Gospel, accepted it, and trusted in Christ, He isn’t going to deny someone salvation on the basis that their ideas about the after-life are somewhat off base.  But you will be expected to LEARN, and accept what the Scriptures say, as you grown in knowledge of them.  And that will require adjusting your beliefs, where needed.

But the situation with you, and so many others Christaras, is different.  You were shown Scriptures just in my last reply, which clearly SHOW (not an “idea” from the text), and outright STATE, that a Christian will be with Christ in Heaven upon the death of their body.  You did not offer an explanation of them, nor did you show why they don’t really mean that.  Instead, you ignored them, and tried to find other Scriptures to counter them.  And you are on dangerous ground in so doing.  The Bible doesn’t contradict itself, and when you try to make it contradict itself because Christaras doesn’t want to adjust what he believes, then you are not some simple person who just doesn’t know the facts…When you start doing that, you cannot claim ignorance of the facts...That's when you go from asking questions, to being a Bible-denier.

And God knows the heart and the motives.  A person who is pure in heart and simply doesn't know or understand, will be given much more grace than someone who stubbornly exalts their own opinions and ideas above those revealed in Scripture.  

So, you ask “what if you believe that man does not live after death, but waits for a resurrection”?  First off, the question isn’t accurate.  Neither do we believe the BODY lives after death, and we also believe IT awaits a resurrection.  That isn’t the question.  The question is, is there a part of man that does remain aware after death, and that goes to Heaven to be with Christ, or to Hell in eternal separation?  And the Scripture does teach this, and if you don’t believe it, then you are not a Bible believer…plain and simple.   


“What if I believe that man is only flesh without any soul or spirit?”

Then you don’t believe the Bible’s teaching on the matter, and you are placing Christaras’ opinion ahead of what God said.  And you are doing it, not ignorantly, but after you were given some of the Scriptures and did not even attempt to explain them.


“What if I believe that God is not a "Trinity"?

Again, that changes nothing.  God isn’t a Trinity because I think He is, and He isn’t Unitarian because that’s what you decide to believe.  Our belief has no bearing on the nature of God.  Again, something or somebody is the final authority.  I have one, and you have one.  Mine is the Bible…Yours appears to be you.  I’ll stick with the Bible.


YOU:  “2)If you are 100% sure that God gives us clear info on these topics(and theres no room for debate), would you mind if I ask you some questions upon these, or are you tired of the "same" questions?”

As for being “tired” of the same questions, yes, I didn’t appreciate the way you completely tried to distort and ridicule my position on the heaven/earth topic, after spending hours on a previous reply to you, outlining exactly what I believe, only to have you claim I believed something else.  Would you like it, Christaras, if you had devoted hours of your time trying to give someone a clear answer to your question, only to have them act like it had never been answered, and then to distort your position?  I don’t think you would.

Now, as for the part about you asking even more questions…I am going to address this with you in the OTHER question in my inbox from you.  I know your tendency is to immediately write me again, after receiving a response from me.  In this case, I want you to wait until I have answered the other question.  Please do not send a follow-up on this one, as it is difficult enough trying to stay caught up with your questions.  Just please wait on the answer to the other question, and I will address this part in that reply.  I will have to reject any question that you send me, prior to my sending the other response.  

Thank you for your understanding.


Take care,

Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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