Jehovah`s Witness/Paul's view of flesh
I have asked a question about flesh being evil or not to Mr Richard.
I want to ask you something related to this. I read the following article.
I really cant believe what the author says here. Its the wildest interpretation I have ever met. If you agree, can you prove from Scriptures that Paul uses "flesh" as referring to the whole nature of man, not only what we know as flesh?
If Paul refers to flesh as the inner man also(soul, spirit), then who is the other spirit that belongs to him and is in battle with the flesh? A second spirit?
ANSWER: Christaras, there is no way that I am going to take the time to break down this article, and respond to every point of it. I simply don't have the time to do so, and this question has nothing to do with this category of Jehovah's Witnesses.
From the article, I do agree with this statement...."“flesh” equates to affections and desires that run contrary to God, not only in the area of sexual activity, but in every area of life."
I do not agree that the "flesh" refers to the spirit of man, because the Bible makes a clear distinction.
Romans 7:22-24- "For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?"
Romans 8:6-9- "For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."
As a result of having a fallen sinful nature, yes, our flesh is evil. And it is also true that the word "flesh" can have a much more broad meaning in Scripture, than just our skin...It often refers to the sinful nature that we struggle with daily.
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QUESTION: I didnt ask about the whole article, just this particular thing. I understand what you say.
It is related. Jws have a contradictory view with you about the nature of man, resurrection etc, its a hot topic the one about flesh and spirit, Earth and Heaven.
To be honest, I think you are all both right and wrong. Bible supports you all. It has verses that justify JWs, but it also has verses that justifies you. I cant tell who's finally right in his interpretations.
An example. A spirit in heaven or a fleshy one on Earth?
5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.
3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
3:12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?
5:5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
11:6 The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
11:7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
11:8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.
JWs try to eliminate the seeming contradiction by dividing Christians in the elite of 144000 and the other faithful sheep that shall inherit the Earth. But this is another story.
ANSWER: The contradiction between a heavenly hope and an earthly one, exists in the MINDS of the JWs, but not in the Scripture. There is not point in my expounding on it, because Richard already mentioned it in his reply to you. The Bible does teach that all believers in Christ go to Heaven at death, and nowhere limits this to 144,000. The Bible also teaches that there will be a "new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness". (2 Peter 3:10-13, Rev. 21)
Simply put....There is no Scriptural support whatsoever, for the notion that only 144,000 go to Heaven, while everyone else is here on earth, and that the 2 groups are separated according to their destinies.
And back to your other question, the Bible is clear that our "flesh" (when used of that which is contrary to the law of God), is inherently wicked. And I don't think JWs even disagree with that.
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QUESTION: You mean the Kingdom of God wont come on Earth, as Jesus says on the prayer? How do you explain New Jerusalem coming down on Earth?
Revelation makes a distinction between an elite and a large crowd of people who hold palms like the crowds when Jesus entered Jerusalem. I dont find it strange if some people go to heaven whereas others stay on earth.
Forgot that Jesus talks to his close disciples as if they are distinct from the others? The others are taught parables, whereas the close disciples are taught the naked truth and get the promise to reign with Jesus.
Christaras, I have no idea where you got that I said the Kingdom won't come to earth. But its fine...No need to explain. Suffice it to say, that is not what I said. Yes, the Kingdom will come to earth. How my saying that there will be a new heavens and a new earth "wherein dwelleth righteousness", caused you to arrive at that conclusion, is a mystery.
The New Jerusalem coming down to earth is "explained" right there in Revelation 21. I have nothing to add to that, beyond what is found there in the passage.
YOU: "Revelation makes a distinction between an elite and a large crowd of people who hold palms like the crowds when Jesus entered Jerusalem."
I have no idea what passage you are referring to here, unless it is Revelation 7:9. If it is, I would simply encourage you to READ the entire passage, all the way down to verse 17. There are only about 6 proofs in that passage, that this group is in Heaven, not on earth separated from the 144,000.
You mention that they are "distinct". Yes, but not because of WHERE they are, but WHO they are. The 144,000 are all Jews, while the "great crowd" are from all nations, peoples, and tongues. That is the distinction....Not where they end up for eternity.
You said..." I dont find it strange if some people go to heaven whereas others stay on earth."
I do, because the Bible doesn't teach it. Why would we want to make up our own ideas, when the Bible tells us explicitly where the "great crowd" is? I find that "strange".
Again Christaras, one question continues to lead into another, and another, and another. I think we have exhausted this subject.