Jehovah`s Witness/Trinity Discussions - May I share? Pay Attention Rando DW
Hello Derrick..Rev. Murphy here..lol..it has been a while. I pray you and your family are doing well. As I read the going back and forth and see there are some that really don't understand Trinity Doctrine(while claiming to be experts on the subject), it becomes more and more interesting how the argument goes from the Trinity, to who said what and who's being exposed.
The more I read, the more I wonder if this is all experts or attack Derrick.com. Now as you know I am not a Trinitarian(in the Traditional sense) But if you will allow me to share somethings.
First, what the "Trinity" Means:
CO-Substantial: Of the same being or essence
CO-Eternal: Existing together Eternally; lasting or existing together without end or beginning(one complication of the formula)
Co-equal: Equal with one another
The above are the meanings of the words that describe the "Trinity"
Past examiningng the words, you only find Theosophy, Theology(subjective) turned into Doctrine and Dogma.
Now before I go further, please allow me to clearly state; WE DO NOT AGREE ON THIS ISSUE; HOWEVER; We share full understanding on what the true issue really is. WE ARE ALSO BROTHERS IN CHRIST regardless of our theological positions.
I also have to state that this may take several posts to finish. I will take no sides, but will show the true belief.
Both JWS and what they call Christendom believe that the Father is eternal without beggining or end. That He is SUPREME and Sovereign. The Holy Spirit is said by JWS to be Gods active force..Christendom believes basically the same..except Christendom believes the Holy Spirit is God.
How could this be? Simple..if the Holy Spirit is Gods active force..then it is of God himself, departing and originating from God himself. The Holy Spirit is Gods Spirit..His Active Force...The RUACH HAKODESH(Holy SPIRIT) is the RUACH ELOHIM, RUACH YAWEH( Or the Spirit of God Himself).
Now.if the Holy Spirit is Gods Active forth and God has no Beginning or End, then we know the Holy Spirit as well has no beginning or End. So therefore, the Holy Spirit is Co-substantial, is Co-eternal and would have to be CO-Equal.
A man has his Spirit(Ruach-life force) His flesh(the shell)and his mind, the brain. Which parts of the listed are not the man? Do not all three make up the man?
I am mindful that God is not a man, and has no flesh, however, the same principle would apply minus the flesh. It should also be noted that more about being "Co-equal" will have to be addressed separately. Being a Non-Trinitarian, I do not fully agree, however fully understand.
As we deal with the SON (Yeshua/Jesus), we must always keep in mind he has two existences, His Heavenly existence before and after his time on earth and his existence on earth in the flesh.
In understanding the Trinity, one must only deal with His Heavenly existence
So lets deal with it:
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
In this opening statement of the Bible, one reads God created the Heavens and the Earth. But we find the word in the original text ELOHIYM translated as God:
(plural intensive - singular meaning)
works or special possessions of God
the (true) God
If read in the plural sense, we find a very interesting revelation: In the begginning, the rulers, divine ones etc., created the Heavens and the Earth.
Is there scriptural and contextual support? Sure:
And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Who was God talking to or about when he set let us? The Divine ones. We know the Holy Spirit was there...for Gods Spirit moved across the face of the Earth. Else was there?
King James Version (KJV)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 The same was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
The Scriptures testify simply that Jesus was there. Jesus is the Logos(Word) He was in the Beginning with God..All things were made by Him, without Him nothing was made. No theology needed here.
So the question now becomes..when did Jesus( in his heavenly existence) come to be?
Proverbs 8:23 and following verses
23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
31 Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.
Now there are those that will argue.."That was wisdom speaking"..to this I say..Let those who have a spiritual ear to hear...hear!
1 Corinthians 1:23-25
King James Version (KJV)
23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
King James Version (KJV)
5 Now gather thyself in troops, O daughter of troops: he hath laid siege against us: they shall smite the judge of Israel with a rod upon the cheek.
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that is to be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.
Now, Genesis 1 does not speak to the begining of Christ, but the Beginning of the earth and all that is in it..all we know..Christ was the 1st in everything brought forth from God(co-substantial) existed with God from the Beginning( Co-eternal). The reason he was stated to be Co-Equal:
King James Version (KJV)
8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Look out that no one takes you captive* by means of the philosophy and empty deception+ according to human tradition, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ; 9 because it is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily
Brother Derrick, sorry to be so lengthy..this is not the end for there is an explanation for Col 2 still not given that i will address in a forthcoming part 2.
I hope Rando, DW,Eddie are paying close attention, for if you want to argue the Trinity, you must have correct understanding. Again, I am not a Trinitarian(in the traditional sense) but I know and understand what to argue.
God Bless and Keep You
Rev. Darryl Murphy
Hello, Brother Murphy, and thank you for writing. I hope you are doing well.
I enjoyed reading your writing to Richard the other day, and appreciated the calm and intelligent manner in which you bring out your points. Also, I appreciate the fact that, although you are non-Trinitarian, you also see how the JWs here are completely clueless as to the nature of the Trinity teaching.
I will let your points speak for themselves, and rather than replying directly to them, I wish to just make a couple of observations of my own, regarding some of the things I have observed here in the past couple of weeks since this Trinity discussion started.
Truthfully, the responses from the JW side, have been astounding. After reading them, I can honestly and truthfully say that I am so thankful to still have my thinking capabilities still in tact, and it makes me all the more grateful that God brought me into the truth of Jesus Christ, before I too surrendered my intellect to the Watchtower Society. Some of the comments made from that side, are simply put....mind boggling.
First, we have Eddie G who first claimed to have a thorough understanding of the Trinity, only to prove with each subsequent writing, that he doesn't have a clue. So far, several people (including you, a non-Trinitarian), have pointed out his faulty understanding.
But I've noticed something else here lately, as well....That even some of the JWs are, in a round-about way without actually coming out and saying it, are acknowledging that he doesn't understand it either. Unfortunately, their approach seems to be...."Oh well, he may not fully understand it, but its false anyway, so no matter"
. Oh really?
That seemed to be the sentiment in Sister T's writing to Eddie a couple of days ago. In fact, her entire post could basically be summed up in the following manner...."Who cares if you really understand it or not, because its false anyway since they teach Jesus is Almighty God, so the rest really doesn't matter".
In fact, let me just quote her directly...."Any teaching that says that Jesus is Almighty God and uncreated goes contrary to the Bible. So it doesn't really matter if the exact understanding is completely known or not known, because all that needs to be known for it to be false is the thought that Jesus is Almighty God. Right there is where the truth stops and the lies begin. Trying to say, the different beliefs of this lie has any bearing on the total understanding of it stops as soon as one says, Jesus is Almighty God."
So what I'm getting from her statement, is that since the Trinity has as its basis a false belief about Jesus Christ being Almighty God (in her mind, its false), then the correct understanding really doesn't matter.
Uh, yes it certainly does. Whether you agree with a belief, or you think its the worst belief in the world, there is NO situation or circumstance where it is okay to distort and misrepresent that belief. In fact, the need to do so, indicates a complete inability to refute what the belief actually DOES teach. Can you imagine someone claiming to be a Christian and standing for TRUTH, and then implying that it really isn't important to state someone's belief correctly, if the belief is considered to be false anyway?
Nor is it acceptable to CLAIM to understand a belief that you don't, and then proceed to lecture on it, by inventing straw man arguments that do not correctly represent the belief. Anyone who would think that is okay, has some serious integrity issues.
Well, I think it matters a great deal. First off, what the Trinity actually DOES teach, has not been refuted by ANY of these people, as you have noticed, Mr. Murphy. You are correct that these people honestly do not know the difference between Trinitarian belief and Modalistic belief, which is the exact point we have been making. And you have noticed this, although you are not a Trinitarian in the traditional sense.
Well, let's use Sister T's own reasoning here towards one of THEIR doctrines, and see if she still feels that way.
Let's just suppose for a moment that I decided to write a series of articles, refuting the JW belief that Jesus is Michael the Archangel. And let's just suppose that during those writings, I continually misstated what the JW position is. Suppose I was claiming that the JW belief taught that Jesus was actually a created angel with another name in the beginning, but was only given the name "Michael" AFTER His ascension to Heaven. Now, that would be a misrepresentation, and I am quite certain you would see Eddie, Rando, DW, and yes, ole' T herself, calling me a "liar" and saying that I am distorting their teaching.
In fact, let me quote DW, in regards to me...."Derrick should be more concerned about the fact he misrepresents our beliefs. I've had to correct Derrick time after time over our beliefs that he misrepresents. The criteria for being here is to have knowledge of our beliefs .Derrick has the least knowledge of our beliefs than any expert on this board or he blatantly lies. Then when I correct him he stubbornly and proudly refuses to admit his wrongdoing."
Can you believe that one? The VERY thing that WE have been pointing out, now DW is griping about it. Now, I do not and have not, misrepresented their beliefs. That is why you always see this statement WITHOUT any example being given from that side. But notice that DW claims that, either I "don't have knowledge of their beliefs, or I'm lying". Funny...That's precisely what I have been saying about Eddie and Rando's distortions of the Trinity....That they are ignorant, or they are lying. But since they both claim to "understand" it, then they are lying, by default.
When dealing with this particular group of JWs, there is ALWAYS a double-standard. One that they apply to YOU, and a completely different one that they apply to themselves. Not surprisingly, theirs is always much more generous to themselves.
But here's the point....You have DW claiming that I either don't UNDERSTAND JW teaching, or I'm a liar. But when its proven beyond all doubt that Eddie and Rando are misrepresenting and distorting the Trinity teaching in every writing, then you have Sister T coming on here and saying, in effect...."Who cares?? Its false anyway, so what does it matter?"
Well, then I can make the same argument, and claim it would be perfectly fine for me to distort the details of the JW teaching that Jesus is Michael the Archangel, because hey, the teaching is false anyway, and ANY teaching that has Jesus being a created angel as its foundation is a lie, so it really doesn't matter if I distort the rest of it.
Brother Murphy, can you imagine the outrage from these very same people who think a correct understanding "doesn't matter", if the situation were reversed? They would be screaming bloody murder, if I took that approach.
However, I have always made it my practice to take the high road, and the honest approach....Whether I agree with the doctrine or nor, I CORRECTLY STATE and EXPLAIN what the doctrine is. And if my understanding is shown to be in error, then MAKE A RETRACTION or CORRECTION. That is a level of honesty that these people never apply to themselves.
Has anyone seen Eddie make ANY retraction for his false statement that Christians "worship the cross"? Mr. Murphy, does your church worship the cross? Has anyone seen Eddie make a retraction of ANY sort, regarding all his ridiculous and bogus comments about the Trinity, which are actually NON-TRINITARIAN in doctrine? Has anyone seen this guy make ANY admission of wrongdoing?
Nope....Full of pride and arrogance, plain and simple.
But again, this clearly illustrates the complete double standard these people apply to themselves. If they want people to think YOU are distorting their belief, they will simply say that you are (without ever showing WHERE you are), and call you a "liar" for it. But when they are twisting yours beyond recognition, then that is ok, because "its false anyway".
Again, statements like what these people post here on a weekly basis, are one of the reasons I am so thankful for the grace of God, that He got ahold of me before they did. Glad to still be able to think and reason, and know the difference between truth and falsehood.
YOU: "As I read the going back and forth and see there are some that really don't understand Trinity Doctrine(while claiming to be experts on the subject), it becomes more and more interesting how the argument goes from the Trinity, to who said what and who's being exposed."
Yeah, that's the funny part. As for "exposing" lies, that one isn't even close. These people's false statements are easy to document. And I have welcomed and challenged them numerous times to do the same where I am concerned, but funny....nothing.
And you are absolutely correct, even writing this from a non-Trinitarian perspective....They really do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity. Which would be FINE, if they at least admitted they didn't. But as you said, when they claim to be "experts on the subject", then I believe it is perfectly reasonable to hold them to a higher standard than what we have seen from them.
YOU: "The more I read, the more I wonder if this is all experts or attack Derrick.com."
I think the posts speak for themselves. Yes, these people have done more attacking of me and my character in the name of defending "the truth", then turn right around and claim that I attack them. And so many people see right through it, but what other choice do they have? Well, besides honesty, and we know they aren't going to do that.
Anyway, I said it before....I am honored that they deem me worthy of so much of their time, and I wear it with honor. The Scripture says that is exactly the way it would be, and they are fulfilling Scripture. It just makes me more determined than ever, to shine the light of the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, to those who need to hear it.
Brother, you said it best right here....
"I hope Rando, DW,Eddie are paying close attention, for if you want to argue the Trinity, you must have correct understanding. Again, I am not a Trinitarian(in the traditional sense) but I know and understand what to argue."
Oh, you can bet they're paying attention, as far as reading the posts. But please don't expect any changes in their actions. They do not have the correct understanding, nor are they interested in having it. They think they are refuting the Trinity, but in reality, they are merely showing their ignorance.
Thanks for writing, Brother. God bless.