Jehovah`s Witness/1914

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QUESTION: good day

Just want to say i read your answer about 1914 and i am not fully convinced by the scriptures you brought out.

Firstly you brought up Rev 12:9 that Satan was hurled down to earth in 1914, did you read the verses before that one?

Rev 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

What are the stars that were dragged down? Rev 1:19 answers that for us. So when did that happen? Please don't tell me it happened in Noah's time

Rev 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Who is this woman, are there scriptures that the Watchtower can bring forth to show it is God's heavenly organisation?

Gal 4:24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Women in the bible represent covenants. So how is Jerusalem above (a promise) a mother to the chosen? Gen 22:16,17 God made that promise/covenant with Abraham

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Before Satan is hurled to the earth there is a war, Michael with his angels on one side and Satan with his.

Who are these angels? Do you remember Rev 1:19?

The other problem Wathctower has to take into consideration is the book of Luke 21 when he was approached by the apostles. Did he say the things Watchtower uses to support this doctrine will occur before or after?

Luke 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:9  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Please respond with scriptures that support the official doctrine

Many thanks
Modise

P.S. you can make public should you wish to

ANSWER: Greetings from South Alabama, USA Jo Mong. I really hope that what I wrote below answers your question, and that I have presented it in an understandable manner. I interspersed my replies in between your questions and points to make it easier to understand.

Just want to say I read your answer about 1914 and i am not fully convinced by the scriptures you brought out.

Firstly you brought up Rev 12:9 that Satan was hurled down to earth in 1914, did you read the verses before that one?

Reply:  Yes I did; as a matter of fact, I said “This next part is historical (and also present time) but is based on prophecy. Please read Revelation 12:1—17 , but especially note verses 7—10 .”

Rev 12:4 Its tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth. The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that it might devour her child the moment he was born.

What are the stars that were dragged down? Rev 1:19 answers that for us.

Reply:  Revelation 1:19 does not say anything about stars, but verse 20   does, but only seven of them. These are not the same stars as those described in Revelation 12:4 & 9 . In the Bible stars are either literal stars, or angels, and these are angels. They can be good or bad. (Job 38:7; Isaiah 14:12—14; Revelation 22:16 ) An angel is also a messenger. Those in Revelation 1:20 are angels of 7 congregations. (See also verse 16 and all of chapters 2 & 3 . These are good angels with some shortcomings, and since that is the case they probably represent the elders of the congregations named.

So when did that happen? Please don't tell me it happened in Noah's time.

Reply:  Why not? Genesis 6:4; 2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6 certainly makes that a distinct probability. There is also a possibility that Revelation 12:4 is simply a reference to Revelation 12:9 . I doubt that, though.

Rev 12:6 The woman fled into the wilderness to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.

Who is this woman, are there scriptures that the Watchtower can bring forth to show it is God's heavenly organization?

Reply:  This “woman” is first mentioned in Genesis 3:15 . The enmity foretold there dovetails perfectly with the events described in Revelation 12:1—4 . There is only one seed, and Jesus is the primary part of this seed, and his anointed brothers make up the secondary part. (Galatians 3:16 & 29 ) Satan wants to destroy the remaining part of the seed. (Revelation 12:17 )

Gal 4:24 These things are being taken figuratively: The women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25 Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.

Women in the bible represent covenants. So how is Jerusalem above (a promise) a mother to the chosen? Gen 22:16, 17 God made that promise/covenant with Abraham

Reply:  You quote Galatians 4:24—26 , and that explains the basic answer to your question. Hagar represents earthly Jerusalem, and she is in slavery with her children. Since Israel was Jehovah’s chosen nation until the death of Jesus, and Jerusalem was the capital, it was written “In that time they will call Jerusalem the throne of Jehovah ; and to her all the nations must be brought together to the name of Jehovah at Jerusalem, and they will no more walk after the stubbornness of their bad heart.” (Jeremiah 3:17 ) The kings sat on “Jehovah’s throne.” — 1 Chronicles 29:23 . So Jerusalem on earth represents Jehovah’s Government. A government is an organization.

“But the Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother.” — Galatians 4:26 . Jehovah’s heavenly government, an organization, gave birth to a new nation, the “Israel of God” made up of spirit anointed Christians who were to rule in God’s Kingdom with Christ Jesus. (Matthew 21:42, 43; Luke 12:32; 22:29; Galatians 6:16; 2 Peter 2:4—10; Revelation 5:9, 10; 20:4—6 ) These are the “remaining ones of her seed” of which Revelation 12:17 speaks.

Rev 12:7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down—that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.

Before Satan is hurled to the earth there is a war, Michael with his angels on one side and Satan with his.

Who are these angels? Do you remember Rev 1:19?

Reply:  Revelation 1:19 does not say anything about stars, but verse 20   does, but only seven of them. These are not the same stars as those described in Revelation 12:4 & 9 . In the Bible stars are either literal stars, or angels, and these are angels. They can be good or bad. (Job 38:7; Isaiah 14:12—14; Revelation 22:16 ) An angel is also a messenger. Those in Revelation 1:20 are angels of 7 congregations. (See also verse 16 and all of chapters 2 & 3 . These are good angels with some shortcomings, and since that is the case they probably represent the elders of the congregations named.

The other problem Watchtower has to take into consideration is the book of Luke 21 when he was approached by the apostles. Did he say the things Watchtower uses to support this doctrine will occur before or after?

Reply:  Before or after what?

Luke 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:9  But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.

Reply:  These are the things that are to occur during the last days of this system of things, before the end comes. They begin when Jesus “stands up” as King of God’s Kingdom and continue until that Kingdom has removed all opposition, whether from human governments or from the spirit realm.
Jesus begins ruling as King; removes Satan from heaven. — Revelation 12:5—12  
He must rule as King for a while “in the midst of his enemies.” — Psalm 110:1, 2; 1 Corinthians 15:25  
This allows time for a global ingathering work. — Matthew 24:14; 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8  
It allows time for “end time” prophecies to be fulfilled. — Matthew 24; Mark 13; Luke 21; 2 Timothy 3:1—5; 2 Peter 3:3, 4; Revelation 6:1—8  

I think some people are confused about the timing of events because many translators render two different words as “coming.” One of these is the Greek word “parousia ” which means “presence”, as in Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, & 39 . The Greek word properly rendered as “coming” is the word “erkhomenon ” as in Matthew 24:30 and other places.

Abdijah


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Thank you for your prompt response

My apologies for misquoting Rev 1:19.

1. The other issue i have with this doctrine (1914) is that how do you use two different calendars to come to that year? How is it that you apply a lunar year that has 360 days and 365.25 days

2. Important question:
If Jesus spoke about the “signs” and called them “Birth pains” in Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8 AND Revelation 12:2 which reveals that they happen before a Birth,what does this tell us about whether the Kingdom is Born, if the “COMPOSITE signs” are spoken about by Jesus as "birth pains/labour pains" ?

Thank you in advance

Answer
The answer to question # 1 is that it is not a day for a day prophecy. As you point out, the prophecy originated using the Hebrew lunar calendar, so that the year was 360 days long.

The fulfilment was therefore in years, regardless of how many days the year has, so that 2,520 prophetic days = 2,520 years in its fulfillment.

As to question # 2 , the understanding relies on the context.

First look at Revelation 12:2 . The woman is experiencing birth pains prior to giving birth, but to what? The answer is in verse 10 where we read, in part: “And I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come to pass the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ….” So the birth was of the Kingdom.

Now consider Matthew 24:8 and Mark 13:8 . Both of these speak of  events occurring in the last days of this system of things; the Kingdom has already been born in heaven, and now these events tell us it will not be much longer until that Kingdom’s rule begins, or is born, in relationship to the earth.

Note that both Matthew 24:14 and Mark 13:10 shows that the good news has to be preached first, before the end of this system.

You may interested in reading The Watchtowers of January 15th and February 15th. In the January issue especially note the first two study articles, and the last one, and in the February issue the first two study articles. These are listed on the front cover of each issue.

You can search for them at <a href=“http://www.jw.org”>Our Official Website</a>.

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Abdijah

Expertise

I will try to answer any question that can be answered from the Bible. I cannot answer questions about personal experiences someone may have had,as I was not there. Sometimes these are true; sometimes they are not. It is not my place to speak of that of which I have no knowledge.

Experience

I have been one of Jehovah's Witnesses since mid-1979. I actually studied for several years before that, and was rather critical. However, while that is not the wisest course, it did give me insight into the thinking of opposers of true worship.

Organizations
The Christian Congregation of Jehovah's Witnesses.

Publications
Newspapers published by Gulf Coast Media.

Education/Credentials
In addition to basic education, and some work-related college level courses, I have been on the Theocratic Ministry School since 1978. I have also attended a number of sessions of the Kingdom Ministry School.

Awards and Honors
My greatest honor is to be a servant of the Most High God, Jehovah, and a preacher of the Good News of his Kingdom under Christ Jesus.

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