Jehovah`s Witness/ego eimi follow up 2

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QUESTION: Hi again brenton thanks again for you views on scripture.

however I would like for you to view my views now and your feed back.

in genesis eighteen there is a distinction in the three men that visited abraham.

In verse one of chapter eighteen scripture says it was jehovah that appear ed to abraham.

Throughout chapter eighteen abraham is conversing with one of the men addressing him as jehovah. I.E verse 4,13.

The two men who was with this mysterious one called jehovah seem to of left jehovah and went on to sodom and gomorah we find them there in chapter 19 NOTICE in chapter 19 it says there were TWO messengers or angels who visited lot not 3.

We then find this jehovah again in chapter 19 verse 24 raining fire and brimstone from another jehovah who is in the heavens!

What is your views on this?

Does scripture teach there are two gods NO!!!

Does scripture reveal a unity in the one true God?

Lets look at genesis 1 verse 26... and God said lets make man in OUR image

God couldnt of spoke to the angels because angels dont create there created.

lets look at deutoronomy 6:4, hear O israel the Lord our God is One Lord.
NOTICE the word ONE the hebrew word used here is ECHAD.
Please do a study on this word.
it is only ever used In a plural way, for instance in genesis 2  24 the man and women be ome ONE flesh the hebrew word used here is ECHAD.
The word for one which is singular is yachid but its not used, Jehovah is Echad.

so lets go back to our original texts genesis 18 and 19 does scripture teach there are two with the same name expressing equality but one?

And could this one be jesus in his pre incarnate state?

And could jesus meant something more we he replied to the jewish leaders before abraham was Ego eimi?

Blessings brenton in jesus name.

ANSWER: Hello Daniel

I appreciate hearing your views.  That makes life more interesting trying to understand how and why others come to the conclusion that they have.

You said … “ in genesis eighteen there is a distinction in the three men that visited abraham.

In verse one of chapter eighteen scripture says it was jehovah that appear ed to abraham.

Throughout chapter eighteen abraham is conversing with one of the men addressing him as jehovah. I.E verse 4,13. “ ...

The one refereed to as Jehovah was one of the three men that Abram entertained and provided a meal for.  On a simple reading without considering what the rest of the Bible has to say it is easy to assume that one of those men was actually named Jehovah.  However we MUST consider all the Bible and what the Audience that received those writings understood.  To assume that the Jehovah there is the God of the Israelites goes against all that is written about that God by Mosses.  As pointed out before that manner of speech was used in Hebrew as recorded at 1 Kings 8:1 .

…. “The two men who was with this mysterious one called jehovah seem to of left jehovah and went on to sodom and gomorah we find them there in chapter 19 NOTICE in chapter 19 it says there were TWO messengers or angels who visited lot not 3.  “....

Yes you are correct 2 of the three men that visited Abram went to lot.  There is nothing in the text that suggests that the third man that stayed with Abram was “mysterious” in any way.   The fact that these three identities in question are all identified as "MEN" should tell us that they are each the same type of being.   As you have correctly pointed out pointed out that two of the three are explicitly identified as angels, why would we  imagine that the third man who remained behind with Abraham is not an angel.  

…. “We then find this jehovah again in chapter 19 verse 24 raining fire and brimstone from another jehovah who is in the heavens! ”....

Again we must start by understanding what the audience of those words understood.  As I tried to show by scripture in the last answer that the Hebrews did not believe in a God that was made up of more than one “united” being.  To come to your understanding you must show where the Hebrews believed that their God “Jehovah” consisted of more that one individual, and that the Hebrews Believed that more that one person carried that name.   Mosses wrote those words and what was Moses told about the name Jehovah and who has it?


Now, we read that three men appeared to Abraham.   Throughout the Bible angels often appeared as men.  Chapter 19 tells us that the two men that left Abram and went to Sodom were angels.  There is no real distinction between the three men.  Moses does not tell us that the one that is refereed to in 18 as Jehovah is anything more than what he appeared, a man and by extension an angel.  If the one that Moses calls Jehovah was the almighty God of the Hebrews that delivered  then from Egypt.  Bassed on all the texts in my previous reply, the one that is referred to as “Jehovah” that was speaking with Abram was a representative (envoy, messenger, angel) of Jehovah


You next ask …. “  Does scripture teach there are two gods NO!!! “....    The scriptures teach that there are many gods, but only ONE God that is to receive religious worship (1 Corinthians 8:5,6   “For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,) 6  But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (KJV) )

You then ask …. “Does scripture reveal a unity in the one true God? ”....  You are saying that God exists in a unity of more that one individual.  To back up that thought say

…. “Lets look at genesis 1 verse 26... and God said lets make man in OUR image
God couldnt of spoke to the angels because angels dont create there created.  
”....

Here  you are correct, the “US” and “OUR”  shows that God was speaking to someone else. The question is who is the other person or persons?  Lets look at a few texts

Proverbs 8:22, 30<b>  “ 22 Jehovah  possessed me in  the beginning of his way,..... 30 Then I was by him, as a master workman; And I was daily his delight,...”

The one being spoken of here is referred to as Wisdom.  Trinitarians are divided as to who this “Wsdom” is,  One line of thinking is that “Wisdom” here refers to Jesus.  With this, I agree.  Others are of the opinion that the “Wisdom” here is just that, wisdom.  The problem with that is, that would mean at one time God had no wisdom and he had to acquire it from somewhere.  So Jesus is Gods Master Worker.  <b>John 1:3  
backs that up  and so does the text I mentioned earlier 1 Corinthians 8:6 Please take not of the words I underline

John 1:3   “All things were made through him; and without him  was not anything made that hath been made."

1 Corinthians 8:6 “But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.”

The three words underlined all come from the same Greek   “primary preposition denoting the channel of an act ; through”.  If you use a “channel of an act” you are using an agency.  I used to be a public Tax Accountant.  Here in Australia we are called “Tax Agents”.  By law, the person (client) is wholly responsible for what goes into the  tax retun, As the “agent” we act under their instructions as to lodging the tax return.  So what John 1 and 1 Corinthians 8   is teaching, is that God was the originator and source of creation but that he had a master worker “through”  whom (the agency) he did the work.

In John 1:3  the KJ uses the expression  “... and without him  was not anything made... “  The word “without him “ is  form the Greek  “choris” which means, when used as an adverb  “at a space, i.e. separately or apart from”    When used as a preposition it can mean “without”  But In this instance it is used as an adverb , so  the correct rendering of John 1:3 is “All things were created  through Him,  and apart from Him not one thing was created   that has been created.”  (HCB., Wey,  NWT)  So apart form Jesus who was Gods first creation and only begotten son, Jesus was  Gods MASTER WORKER or the agency or the channel by which God created all things (except for  himself, and his God and Father).

Even though the work of creation was done “through ” the agency of Jesus, can he still not be a member of the godhead? No. The trinity teaches that the Father and Jesus are co-equal.   He repeatedly said he was sent and does nothing of his own initiative and spoke what he was told ( John 4:34; 6:38; 5:24 )   After Jesus had been resurrected he  said that he had a God  (John 20:17 )  It was not just while Jesus had been a man on earth that the Bible shows he was inferior to God, Jesus after  had ascended  back to heaven we are told God (singular) was his head (1 Corinthians 11:3 ) and that Jesus had been obedient to God (Philippines 2:8</b>)  and  he subjects him self to Gods  authority  (1 Corinthians 15:28 ).   These verses show a contradiction to the idea God is a composite union of more that one individual where the separate individuals were all called Jehovah that there were at least  two individuals with the name Jehovah because only one individual has that name. (Isaiah 42:8  “I [singular] am Jehovah. That is my [singular] name; and to no one else shall I give my [singular] own glory,. . .”</b> (NWT)  )

So, yes we agree that in Genesis 1:26 God was talking to some one. When it says “God said” who is God here? What did the Hebrews understand by that wording?  Did they understand that there was a “godhead” or God made up of multiple personalities?  No they did not. Again, I ask, if God let them believe all the time that they were his “chosen people” that the God they worshipped was more than one person acting in unity and let them go on believing something different, is that not  perpetuating a lie  to them?


Ok you next  ask me ….  “ lets look at Deuteronomy 6:4, hear O israel the Lord our God is One Lord.
NOTICE the word ONE the hebrew word used here is ECHAD.
Please do a study on this word.
it is only ever used In a plural way, for instance in genesis 2  24 the man and women be ome ONE flesh the hebrew word used here is ECHAD.
The word for one which is singular is yachid but its not used, Jehovah is Echad.
“...


You are correct in that “echad” can give the idea of unity such as the example you quote of Genesis 2:24.  It is also true that the word “yachid” has a meaning of one absolute .

However is it true that “echad” is restricted to “unity” and is it true that “yachid”  only ever means numerically one, or does  “echad” in the Bible refer to numeral one more than it does unity, and conversely does  “yachid”  have the general meaning of unity or together.

To start lets see what does Strongs Hebrew Lexicon say  (Notice the FIRST meanings as highlighted)

’echad ekh-awd’; a numeral from 0258; properly, united, i.e. one; or (as an ordinal ) first: —  a, alike, alone, altogether, and, any(-thing), apiece, a certain, [dai-]ly, each (one), + eleven, every, few, first, + highway, a man, once, one, only, other, some, together.

To see all the definitions Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew lexicon has to say about ’echad  see  http://biblehub.com/hebrew/259.htm

yachad ; from 03161; properly, a unit , i.e. (adverb) unitedly: —  alike, at all (once), both, likewise, only, (al-)together, withal.  

To see all the definitions Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew lexicon has to say about yachad  see
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3162.htm

Does “echad” ever mean numerical one absolute? These are all from the KJV, see hat you think

“And the LORD  God  caused  a deep sleep to fall  upon Adam, and he slept : and he took  one [ echad] of his ribs “ (Gen 2:21 )   

We  are all one [echad]  man’s  sons; (Genesis 42:11)

“In one [echad] house  shall it be eaten”  Exodus

in the Bible echad is an ordinal number and means "first":

“... And the evening  and the morning  were the first  [echad] day”  (Genesis 1:5)

 “The name  of the first [echad]  is Pison”  (Genesis  2:11)

“.... on the first [echad] day of the second  month”  (Numbers 1:1)


When  various commentators declare (without making qualifications) that "echad means compound, composite unity," they haven't done the required lexical study. For example, the standard Hebrew word to denote joining, unity or togetherness is yachad, not echad.

“...so they went  both of them <08147> together [yachad]”.  (Genesis  22:8)
“And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together. [yachad]. (Deuteronomy 33:5)
mine heart  is turned  within me, my repentings  are kindled together [yachad] (Hosea 11:8b)
Behold, how good  and how pleasant  it is for brethren to dwell   together [yachad] in unity [yachad]  (Psalms  133:1)

Please check out the links above as to the various ways those Hebrew words are used.


Your next question

…. “ so lets go back to our original texts genesis 18 and 19 does scripture teach there are two with the same name expressing equality but one? “ ….

Based on all the texts and the word definitions in the last reply and this one I have to answer NO


…. ”  And could this one be jesus in his pre incarnate state? “ ...

The angel doing the speaking as Gods representative, mat well have been the “angel”  with the name Michael (later known as Jesus), because we are told that Jesus was also called the “WORD” of God at John 1:1 .  As the word of God and Gods chief spokes person, it may well have been Jesus representing his Father and his God.  However that is pure speculation as the Bible does not give us any direct answer to that.

 … “And could jesus meant something more we he replied to the jewish leaders before abraham was Ego eimi? ....”

When John recorded the words of Jesus at John 8:58 he uses the Greek words ego eimi.  In the context of that verse the subject is not identity but the age of Jesus. So in John ego eimi means “I existed” or “I was” or  “I have been .  The  particular Hebrew verb used at Exodus 3:14 means “ I will become” or “ I will cause”,  so there is not connection between the two texts.

…. “And could this one be jesus in his pre incarnate state? ”....

The angel doing the speaking as Gods representative, mat well have been the “angel”  with the name Michael (later known as Jesus), because we are told that Jesus was also called the “WORD” of God at John 1:1 .  As the word of God and Gods chief spokes person, it may well have been Jesus representing his Father and his God.  However that is pure speculation as the Bible does not give us any direct answer to that.

… “And could jesus meant something more we he replied to the jewish leaders before abraham was Ego eimi?    “

When John records the words of Jesus at John 8:58 he uses the Greek words ego eimi.  In the context of that verse the subject is not identity but the age of Jesus. Si in John ego eimi means “I existed” or “I have been .  The  particular Hebrew verb used at Exodus 3:14 means “ I will become” or “ I will cause”, so there is not connection between the two texts


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi brenton thanks for your reply again.

I suppose we will have to agree to disagree been great dialoging woth you.

my conclusion would be that scripture does teach a unity within jehovah.
That the father and the son are revealed quite clearly from the bible, the mystery of this one in the old testament has now been revealed in the person of jesus christ as it says on the book of colossians, however I understand that many have come to a different understanding of who jesus christ is.

I believe the eternal word became flesh in jesus christ lived a sinless life and paid the due penalty for the sins mankind has committed against God and who soever should call upon the name of the Lord jesus shall be saved. And shall pass from judgement and live with him for in the age to come where sin and satan will be eradicated.

Blesings.

ANSWER: Hello Daniel

Thank you for the considerate conversation we have had.

I would be interested in just how you would explain.....  “that scripture does teach a unity within jehovah. “ …. without causing a contraction in the various texts I used.

Perhaps when you can examine the evidences I presented and can give a counter argument to them you might consider letting me know.  


I  understand ...  “That the father and the son are revealed quite clearly from the bible”   ...  as separate and distinct individuals and I find it intriguing that individuals want to join then together into one God.


I to believe that the Word  “Jesus” left his heavenly abode and became flesh, and lived a sinless life and died for mankind.  Jesus was in union with the Father  as recorded at John 10:30 “I and the Father are one.”   in accomplishing Gods purpose but that he was never equal to God his Father or shared the name Jehovah with his God.


---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------

QUESTION: Hi again brenton.

Ok great I can continue to dialogue on this subject I believe I have given enough evidence for my stand on the person of christ, however it comes down to choice at grhe end of the day. But it may be helpful in the future you.

in response to the scriptures you sent me concerning echad, if you look again at them they are all in some way used In  a plural sense, for example consider the scripture about the morning and evening being one day, the morning and evening make up one day. From one of adams ribs came another person eve, when echad is used as one its plural not absolute singulal even when used in the context of first to be first there must be others aswell. So in context the word echad is plural not absololute singular yachid.

Answer
Hello Daniel,


I always enjoy respectful conversation especially if I can learn something new


I found your information interesting when you said … ”when echad is used as one its plural not absolute singular even when used in the context of first to be first there must be others as well. So in context the word echad is plural not absolute singular yachid. “ ....  May I ask please what scholarly evidence do you have for those conclusions?

Remember I said  …. “You are correct in that “echad” can give the idea of unity such as the example you quote of Genesis 2:24.  It is also true that the word “yachid” has a meaning of one absolute “

The explanations I gave of both  “echad” and “yachad” are not mine.  They come from Hebrew scholars.

Software that I have of the Bible uses  Brown-Driver-Briggs Hebrew Lexicon as well as  Groves Wheeler Hebrew  Morphology of the Westminster Leningrad Hebrew Codex, and  gives me the parts of speech of every word in the Hebrew texts.  AT Deuteronomy 6:4 it tells me that the Hebrew word for “echad”   is  אֶחָֽד׃ and the the Grammar that it presents for that word, at that place is  “Number, Cardinal, Masculine, Singular,Absolute”

Is that backed up by other grammas?

The well known and respected Hebrew lexicon of Brown-Driver-Briggs  gives this meaning for “echad :”  Here are some exerts.   Please not the portions I have in bold.

adjective number one  

absolute

feminine absolute

plural masculine

1 one

2 = each, every

3 = a certain

4 =  Indefinite article  

5 only

6 one . . . another, the one . . . the other

7 as ordinal, first

8 in combination.

a.  eleven 

b. with other numerals, as cardinal

adjective one, a; — masculine singular 


1 one side

2 a (indefinite article) with substantive

A full text of the above with examples can be found at   http://biblehub.com/hebrew/259.htm


It is interesting to see what the Hebrew Scollars say about  “yachad”
The well known and respected Hebrew lexicon of Brown-Driver-Briggs  gives this meaning for “yachad:”  Here are some exerts.


noun [masculine] unitedness. 1 assubstantive only 1 Chronicles 12:17 (peculiar)  I will have a heart toward you for unitedness, i.e. my heart shall be ready to become one with yours (compare v.1 Chronicles 12:38.

elsewhere always in accusative as
adverb in union, together
a.  together, of community in action, place, or time
b. all together, altogether

c. together, in the sense of alike, the one as well as the other,

adverb together (properly (in) his or its unitednesses

a. of community in action,

b. emphatic (especially in poetry) = all together

b) suggesting all at once, as well as all together,

c. alike, the one as well as the other

The full text of that can be found at http://biblehub.com/hebrew/3162.htm


The following web site is part of a Hebrew   learning site  called 'Hebrew Streams – Ancient Hebrew Elements in the New Testament”   and may be enlightening to you.  I used information from this site in my previous reply

http://www.hebrew-streams.org/works/hebrew/echad.html

That is the scholarly evidence I have found for what I have presented. I am interested in what scholarly evidence you have found to support your conclusions  

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Brenton Hepburn

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I AM one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and I am always learning. I am NOT an expert in the full sense of the word but I can answer questions on the reliability of the NWT - the so called mind control problems-so called prophecies - how being a JW affects the individual and relatives and general practices and history of Jehovah’s Witnesses. >>WARNING<< Please be aware that there are people here who ARE NOT practicing JWs. By all means ask these ones questions. Depending on the question you will get an honest answer, but, generally the answer you get, will mislead you as to what we believe, often because, they do not give ALL the relevant details. These ones will, have an agenda against JWs., and will at times give answers that are not correct in regard to JW teachings and practices. If you are after a answer from one of Jehovah’s Witnesses, please read some of the answers that the various experts have published before choosing someone. If you want to ask one of the NON JWs a question, that is fine, BUT if you want a balancing view after asking one of the NON JWs, ask a JW the same question. PLEASE ALSO NOTE: There(have been)and are, some "experts" here who are NOT always the most courteous and polite, at times are actually quite rude, that applies to both JW's and non JW's and their answers may offend, especially when they get personal and attack the character of the person and not the message. Unfortunately some here that have done that. So it IS IMPORTANT to chose an "expert" that YOU feel will best suit YOU by reading some of their past answers . . . . .

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I have been a publisher since 1964. When I first went on the internet I found a lot of negative information dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses covering prophecy, mind control and what many said was a very bad translation of the Bible known as the NWT. It shook my faith. After may hours researching these topics I could see why some felt that way, but, I was also able to explain why there were these misleading views. I can now set matters straight for anyone that has negative information about Jehovah’s Witness to show them that such information is at best misleading and at worst dangerous lies.

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I have been a student of the Bible for many years, am trying to teach myself Biblical Greek. Was a public tax accountant for many years untill SEP 2009 when I gave it up due to health problems.

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