Jehovah`s Witness/ego eimi follow up
QUESTION: Hi brenton sorry for the delay.
I have been doing some more research on the context of this subject and have been looking into the statement jesus made when he said abraham rejoiced to see my day and he saw it.
Do you think abraham may of met with jesus in his pre existing form what some call a christophonie?
ANSWER: Hi Daniel
Thank you for the follow up, and no need to apologise, I understand that life is busy and we have a lot to do each day.
You asked Do you think abraham may of met with jesus in his pre existing form what some call a christophonie?
I had to look up what christophonie was
Personally I do not believe that Abraham saw a christophonie (vision) of Jesus, but I would not 100% rule it out as visions of the future were often given in the Bible. If Abraham had such a vision it is not recorded. So why am I confident that at John 8:56 Jesus is not telling us that Abraham had such a vision? First of all, if
Abraham had, not only had a vision, but, it was such an awe-inspiring vision where he actually “may of met with Jesus
”, the promised messiah, the one thorough whom all mankind would bless themselves, (Genesis 22:18 “And by means of your seed all nations of the earth will certainly bless themselves due to the fact that you have listened to my voice” 1984 NWT)
I am confident that would have been recorded for us just as visions of Jesus as king are recorded in Revelation and visions of Gods glory and heavenly throne are recorded in Ezekiel.
So how would Abraham have seen Jesus day
Abraham had, at the age of 75 shown faith
in God to the point of leaving his home city of Ur, a prosperous and well to do city with a lot of comfort, and go wonder in the wilderness.
“12 And Jehovah proceeded to say to Abram: “Go your way out of your country and from your relatives and from the house of your father to the country that I shall show you; 2 and I shall make a great nation out of you and I shall bless you and I will make your name great; and prove yourself a blessing. 3 And I will bless those who bless you, and him that calls down evil upon you I shall curse, and all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you
4 At that A′bram went just as Jehovah had spoken to him, and Lot went with him. And A′bram was seventy-five years old when he went out from Ha′ran ”
First of all at 75 he packs up his family and goes out into the wilderness. That is an act of faith. Abraham also had a promise made to him that “all the families of the ground will certainly bless themselves by means of you
” It was not until some years later when Abraham was 99 years of age he was told he would have a son by his wife. (Genesis 17:1
) How much faith must he have had at that age to accept that in one year he would have a second son with his wife who was now 90 years of age (Genesis 17:17
). Gods covenant would stand with this son (Genesis 17:21.
“ “However, my covenant I shall establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this appointed time next year.”)
Now Isaac has grown into a young man and Abraham is asked to sacrifice his son on an alter. ( Genesis 22:1-18
) Abraham’s faith was so strong that he knew that Gods promises would be fulfilled and was willing to offer his son Lets look at what Paul says about Abraham and Sarah to the Hebrews at Hebrews 11:8-12; 17-19
By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed in going out into a place he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, although not knowing where he was going. 9
By faith he resided as an alien in the land of the promise as in a foreign land, and dwelt in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the very same promise. 10
For he was awaiting the city having real foundations, the builder and maker of which [city] is God.
By faith also Sarah herself received power to conceive seed, even when she was past the age limit, since she esteemed him faithful who had promised. 12
Hence also from one [man], and him as good as dead, there were born [children] just as the stars of heaven for multitude and as the sands that are by the seaside, innumerable. …...
By faith Abraham, when he was tested, as good as offered up Isaac, and the man that had gladly received the promises attempted to offer up [his] only-begotten [son], 18
although it had been said to him: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 19
But he reckoned that God was able to raise him up even from the dead; and from there he did receive him also in an illustrative way.”
His faith was so strong he just knew God would raise Isaac from the dead. It was as his “eyes of faith” that he was able to see the out come of those promises. It was not just the faith of Abraham that allowed him to visualize (see) Jesus day as we are told at Hebrews 11:13
“In faith all these died, although they did not get the [fulfillment of the] promises, but they saw them afar off and welcomed them and publicly declared that they were strangers and temporary residents in the land.”
So in answer to your question. No, I do not think that Abraham met Jesus in a vision. It was his extraordinary strong faith that allowed him to see the fulfillment of the promise God made to him that by his seed (Jesus) all the nations would be blessed.
In the context of John 8, and the conversation that Jesus had with the religious leaders, they were claiming that they were children of Abraham (Vs 33). As such Jesus accuses them of not listening to Abraham and did not have the faith of Abraham
otherwise their faith would move them to works Like it did for Abraham (Vs 39) because if they had, they would listen to Jesus (Vs 43) because he spoke the things from his Father who sent him (Vs 16, 42 ). They would know the truth of who Jesus was – The Messiah – the promised seed. As the promise seed he was the one that would be able to set them free from sin. (Vs 24) Abraham had such a strong faith in the promises. Much of what Jesus said they did not comprehend or understand (Vs 27, 37)
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: In genesis chapter 18 could you please tell me why one of the men speaking to abraham is called jehovah?
ANSWER: Hello Daniel, may peace be with you and your family,
Thank you for the follow up.
I understand that the majority of people believe that it was actually Jehovah that was one of the tree strangers that Abram entertained. Some feel that it was the Almighty that was there, others say that Jesus is Jehovah of the Old Testament, and that when Abram was speaking with “Jehovah” he was speaking with Jesus.
You did not say how you felt about it, but I will assume from previous discussion we have had that you may see this as Abram talking with Jesus, but with the name Jehovah.
Not knowing exactly what your position is I will answer this from the point of view of , ...was it the Almighty God, Jehovah, that was one of the three strangers?
Would you agree that context is important. Not just of a particular verse, but chapter as well as book, and, the whole
Bible is important. We know what is said at 2 Timothy 3:16
that “All Scripture is inspired of God”. Therefore we should consider ALL of the Bible. Also, we know that not only does God hate lies ( Proverbs 6:16,17
) we are told that “it is impossible for God to lie”. (Hebrews 6:18
). That tells me that there can be NO
contradictions in the Bible, because if there were, then God would be a liar.
Therefore, is it reasonable then, that we examine ALL the Bible to see if there are any seeming contractions, and if there are any what explanation can the Bible give to explain them.
, at Genesis 18, it was Jehovah – the God of the Hebrews – that was there, then we have a contradiction with John 1:18 where John, being a Hebrew, and under inspiration says “No man has seen God at any time”.
The experience of Mosses supports that and also tells us that even the Glory of Jehovah is some thing no human can see Exodus 33:20-23
little alone Jehovah himself.
“20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.
21 And the LORD (Jehovah) said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:
22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory
passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:
23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.”
Now, according the Hebrew people, what was the name of the God they worshipped? It was (in the English language) Jehovah. Lets just go back to Genesis 15
In verse 1
we see Abram is having a vision and God is speaking in that vision. In Verse 7
we read “...I am Jehovah that brought thee out of Ur of the Chaldees,” (ASV) Note the singular
”. This phrase “I
am Jehovah” (or “I
am the LORD” KJV ) is used about 160 times in the Old Testament. When a Hebrew read, or heard that expression, what do you think they understood by the singular
? What do you understand when someone says I
? Briefly then, when the name Jehovah (the LORD) appears, it is speaking of the ONE God of the Hebrews. The Jews right through history have accepted only ONE “person
” as God. If “God” consisted of more than one person, then he (they) perpetuated a lie for centuries.
Ok back to the problem
It was not Jehovah that was personally there, but a representative of his, a messenger, (angel). The three strangers that appeared to Abram were angels. The evidence from above is a start. There are other examples of where the Bible speaks as if Jehovah was actually there and speaking, but he was not, He was being represented by an angel.
I want to bring to your attention two accounts in the book of Judges. Keep in mind that these ones knew from the writing’s of Moses that no one could see the Jehovah and yet live
“ And there came an angel of the LORD, and sat under an oak ...”
I want to show the rest of this from the 1901 American Standard Version instead of using the word “LORD” (in all capitals) the ASV uses Jehovah.
Note Vs 11, 12 clearly tells
us it is the angel of Jehovah
. Using Strongs Hebrew Lexicon we are told that the Hebrew word rendered as angel in the KJV and the ASV means “ to despatch as a deputy; a messenger; specifically, of God, i.e. an angel (also a prophet, priest or teacher): — ambassador, angel, king, messenger.”
So we are told that it is not actually the “LORD” (Jehovah) that is sitting with Gideon but Gods messenger.
Now note Vs 14. “ And Jehovah looked upon him...” and Vs 16 “ And Jehovah said unto him...” And in Vs 22 Gidion realises that it is an angel that is speaking to him.
11 And the angel of Jehovah
came, and sat under the oak which was in Ophrah, that pertained unto Joash the Abiezrite: and his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the winepress, to hide it from the Midianites.
12 And the angel of Jehovah
appeared unto him, and said unto him, Jehovah is with thee, thou mighty man of valor.
13 And Gideon said unto him, Oh, my lord, if Jehovah is with us, why then is all this befallen us? and where are all his wondrous works which our fathers told us of, saying, Did not Jehovah bring us up from Egypt? but now Jehovah hath cast us off, and delivered us into the hand of Midian.
14 And Jehovah looked
upon him, and said, Go in this thy might, and save Israel from the hand of Midian: have not I sent thee?
15 And he said unto him, Oh, Lord, wherewith shall I save Israel? behold, my family is the poorest in Manasseh, and I am the least in my father’s house.
16 And Jehovah said
unto him, Surely I will be with thee, and thou shalt smite the Midianites as one man.
17 And he said unto him, If now I have found favor in thy sight, then show me a sign that it is thou that talkest with me.
18 Depart not hence, I pray thee, until I come unto thee, and bring forth my present, and lay it before thee. And he said, I will tarry until thou come again.
19 And Gideon went in, and made ready a kid, and unleavened cakes of an ephah of meal: the flesh he put in a basket, and he put the broth in a pot, and brought it out unto him under the oak, and presented it.
20 And the angel of God
said unto him, Take the flesh and the unleavened cakes, and lay them upon this rock, and pour out the broth. And he did so.
21 Then the angel of Jehovah
put forth the end of the staff that was in his hand, and touched the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and there went up fire out of the rock, and consumed the flesh and the unleavened cakes; and the angel of Jehovah departed out of his sight.
22 And Gideon saw that he was the <u>angel of Jehovah
; and Gideon said, Alas, O Lord Jehovah! forasmuch as I have seen the angel of Jehovah face to face.
23 And Jehovah
said unto him, Peace be unto thee; fear not: thou shalt not die.
The other example is with Sampson’s parents and is recorded at Judges 13
Here an angel had appeared to Sampson’s mother in Vs 3
and told here would have a son even though she was barren “ And the angel
of Jehovah appeared unto the woman, and said unto her, Behold now, thou art barren, and bearest not; but thou shalt conceive, and bear a son. “
She did not know that this was an angel but thought it was a man as we see in Vs 10. There is a conversation that happens and in verse 21 Manoah realises that the man with whom he is speaking is an angel. Like Gideon he is afraid he will die because he recognises that the angel was from God. Although he did not actually see Jehovah God, Manoah felt that way because he had seen the materialized personal spokesman for God.
9 And God hearkened to the voice of Manoah; and the angel of God
came again unto the woman as she sat in the field: but Manoah her husband was not with her.
10 And the woman made haste, and ran, and told her husband, and said unto him, Behold, the man hath appeared unto me, that came unto me the other day.
11 And Manoah arose, and went after his wife, and came to the man, and said unto him, Art thou the man that spakest unto the woman? And he said, I am.
12 And Manoah said, Now let thy words come to pass: what shall be the ordering of the child, and how shall we do unto him?
13 And the angel of Jehovah
said unto Manoah, Of all that I said unto the woman let her beware.
14 She may not eat of anything that cometh of the vine, neither let her drink wine or strong drink, nor eat any unclean thing; all that I commanded her let her observe.
15 And Manoah said unto the angel of Jehovah
, I pray thee, let us detain thee, that we may make ready a kid for thee.
16 And the angel of Jehovah
said unto Manoah, Though thou detain me, I will not eat of thy bread; and if thou wilt make ready a burnt-offering, thou must offer it unto Jehovah. For Manoah knew not that he was the angel of Jehovah.
17 And Manoah said unto the angel of Jehovah
, What is thy name, that, when thy words come to pass, we may do thee honor?
18 And the angel of Jehovah
said unto him, Wherefore askest thou after my name, seeing it is wonderful?
19 So Manoah took the kid with the meal-offering, and offered it upon the rock unto Jehovah: and the angel did wondrously, and Manoah and his wife looked on.
20 For it came to pass, when the flame went up toward heaven from off the altar, that the angel of Jehovah ascended in the flame of the altar: and Manoah and his wife looked on; and they fell on their faces to the ground.
21 But the angel of Jehovah
did no more appear to Manoah or to his wife. Then Manoah knew that he was the angel of Jehovah
22 And Manoah said unto his wife, We shall surely die, because we have seen God
Even though it was an angel that communicated with them and they realised that
You may think of when Mosses was in the wilderness at Mt Sinai and that God spoke to him there, Under inspiration Luke records for us at Acts 7:38
that it was in fact an angel that spoke to Mosses and OTHER forefathers “ This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:” (KJV) At the burning Bush it was an angle that spoke to Moses Exodus 3:2 but Moses spoke as if he was speaking to God because the angle was conveying the message of God and speaking for God. That is much the same way as say an ambassador or envoy represents a government to another government or say the UN. When the envoy speaks he is speaking for and answering questions for the government he represents.
Moses did not ever see the God because of what we read at Exodus 33:20-23
and the fact that we are told God is invisible Hebrews 11:25
“It was faith that made Moses leave Egypt without being afraid of the king’s anger. As though
he saw the invisible God, he refused to turn back.” (GNB)
Other texts that back up that it was angels that delivered the various messages can be found at the following texts
You are the ones who received God’s law, that was handed down by angels
- yet you have not obeyed it!" (GNB)
“What, then, was the purpose of the Law? It was added in order to show what wrongdoing is, and it was meant to last until the coming of Abraham’s descendant, to whom the promise was made. The Law was handed down by angels
, with a man acting as a go-between”. (GNB)
“The message given to our ancestors by the angels
was shown to be true, and all who did not follow it or obey it received the punishment they deserved.” (GNB)
“Remember to welcome strangers in your homes. There were some who did that and welcomed angels without knowing it
Because the Bible does not contradict itself, showing that God can not lie, and the evidence that NO man has seen God (John 1:18
) nor can see God (Exodus 33:20-23
) and that we are told God used messengers to deliver his messages, the account at Genesis 18 can only be explained that all three “men” (strangers that Abram welcomed) were angels, and, that the one that is mentioned as Jehovah, was the spokes one (direct representative) at that time for Jehovah.
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hello brenton great reply.
I havnt looked too much into the other scriptures you qouted but am familiar with them.
However concerning this account with abraham I cant help but follow the story into the next chapter.
Please could you explain your views on the following verse genesis 19:24.
And the context is definitely important. We find the two men crom the chapter 18 warning lot about the wrath to come upon sodom and gomorah and tling them to leave however then in verse 24 we find the one called jehovah send fire down from jehovah out of the heavens.
My question is why does the holy spirit here inspire moses the writer of genesis to give two seperate persons the name jehovah?
Thank again for asking me a question.
Lets just consider some of the context. In Chapter 18:2
we see 3 men come to visit Abram. They are all called men. No distinction is made between them. Two of them leave and travel to Sodom In 19:1
there are identified as angels or messengers. “And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom:” As all three are called men with no distinction made we must conclude that all three are angels or messengers
Later that night they tell Lot that they are going to destroy the city Vs 13
“For we will destroy this place,..” So is this a contraction in the next verse “...for Jehovah will destroy the city.”? No. They were representatives or messengers from God. What is Gods standard for bringing ab accusation Deuteronomy 19:15
tells us “ . . .. At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of three witnesses the matter should stand good.”- so from the mouth of these two angels was testomy or witnesses of Gods judgement upon those people, and the were able to assured Lot and his family what was coming on the cities and that flight was necessary.
So it was God that was actually going to destroy the city.
Now the text you refer to is Genesis 19:24
which reads in the KJV “Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;”
The 1901 ASV reads “Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from Jehovah out of heaven”
It is true that many people reading this account get the idea that there are two people involved here. It is often argued that Jehovah ( the LORD) made fire come down from a second Jehovah ( the LORD).
An aspect of considering “context” especially in considering past events, we need to keep in mind what the readers of the time would have understood by particular words, and not try to impute ideas that were foreign to them. So we need to ask ourselves, when an ancient Hebrew (or a modern Jew) read those words, did they see two people named Jehovah?
May I remind readers of some texts in the previous reply that we need to consider ALL
of the Bible to see that there are no contradiction that may cause God to be a liar (2 Timothy3:16; Proverbs 6:16,17; Hebrews 6:18
) Here is one more text to consider as to what is written in the OT about Jehovah and what the Hebrews believed Psalms 83:18
“That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.” (KJV) Notice that even the LKJV uses the Divine name here. The Hebrew word rendered as “thou” (or “you”) is a second person masculine singular
pronoun. The Hebrew word rendered as “alone” is masculine singular
noun. So in this Psalm we are told that Jehovah (singular
) ALONE, by himself, no other, is the most high.
Does that allow for more that one person to have that name?
“...that thou mayest know that there is none
like unto the LORD our God.” (KJV)
“... that thou mayest know that there is none
like unto Jehovah our God.” (ASV)
The prophet Isaiah wrote for us
“ I am Jehovah, and there is none else; besides me there is no God.” The same thought is repeated at the end of verse 6
“....I am Jehovah, and there is none else.” A little further on in verse 18
we again read “.... I am Jehovah; and there is none else.” (ASV)
We can not have a contradiction and thus a lie in the Bible. Either there are “two” that have the name Jehovah, or, there is one, If there is only one as per Psalms and Isaiah that means that there must be another explanation to Genesis 19.
The answer is, that there was a particular, but peculiar Hebrew idiom (pattern of speech) that is employed here. For example, when King Solomon was king over Israel, how many people were called King Solomon? Only one. Now notice this particular speech pattern of his his as recorded at 1 Kings 8:1
assembled the elders of Israel, and all the heads of the tribes, the chief of the fathers of the children of Israel, unto king Solomon
in Jerusalem,...” (JKV)
Here we have Solomon asking people to come to King Salomon. Some Bibles have changed the original Hebrew speech pattern to read similar to the Bible In Basic English (BBE) “Then Solomon
sent for all the responsible men of Israel, and all the chiefs of the tribes, and the heads of families of the children of Israel, to come to him
Genesis 19:24 is Jehovah showing that he had the power and authority to make such a destructive event happen. Just as King Salomon showed that he had the authority to call the responsible men of Israel” to come before him
Therefore translators could follow the BBE and re write Genesis 19:24 after the same style as 1 Kings 8:1
in order to be clearer in English. “Then Jehovah rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from himself
out of heaven;”