Jehovah`s Witness/ego eimi follow up 4
QUESTION: Hi brenton.
I see what your implying that ' a god ' can be used but that dosent mean God cant be used either, nearly every translation reads God not a god.
also context is key, consider john chapter 5 for instance, it says the jews wanted to kill him because he was calling God his own father claiming equality with God.
also when jesus quoted psalm 82 which calls the men gods its refering to mere men who were appointed to lead. Jesus on the other hand made mankind john 1 VERSE 3 and sustains the universe they live in hebrews 1 verse1-3.
ANSWER: Hi Daniel thank you for asking these next questions. I am enjoying this as it is making me do a lot of research and I am learning a lot.
First may I ask, please. that when you mention a text that you please give me the full text to find. That will saves me precious time having to read a lot of material. Perhaps you could also tell me what Bible version you are using.
Secondly you said …. “I see what your implying that ' a god ' can be used but that dosent mean God cant be used either, nearly every translation reads God not a god.
”.... Yes most translations do use “God”. The question is, are they correct in doing so. I will argue that the reason that the do, is due to their pre conceived “THEOLOGICAL” ideas, and not
good translation practice. Translation is not just about taking a word from one language and rendering it into another. As you, yourself, point out context should be considered. The context of John 10:33
including the grammar, and, the answer that Jesus gave, shows that “God” is not the correct English rendering. Both the gramma and context show that the English rendering should be “ a god”. Context IS
important. If the translators are Trinitarian, by closely following the context and the grammar at this verse, they are going against their theology.
You next ask me to consider the context of John and point to John 5:18
“Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.” (KJV)
There are two reasons why they wanted to stone Jesus 1) According to them Jesus broke the Sabbath [Which he did not
] and, 2) Jesus said God was his Father i.e. he was the Son of God.
In considering the context, ask yourself - Did Jesus say
he was equal to God? Or, was it the Jews that thought
he was saying that. If that is what Jesus meant, did he agree with them? Or, did he reject the idea. Lets look at the context and see what he said in answer to them in Vs. 19
“Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself
, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.”
By this, Jesus showed the unbelieving Jews that they were mistaken, and, that he was not equal to God and therefore could not act on his own initiative. If he had equality with the Father, why coild he not do things on his own initiative becse he would know that would be in harmony with the Father. Instead he make the clear point that he does nothing without aproval from the Father. That shows a superior, and subordinate relationship. Can we imagine someone equal to Almighty God saying that he could “do nothing by himself”?
As in John 10:30,33
, it was the Jews that charged Jesus with blasphemy for making himself equal to their God, and, in both cases Jesus refutes the charge.
I fully agree with what you say here …. “ also when jesus quoted psalm 82 which calls the men gods its refering to mere men who were appointed to lead.
”.... That is exactly the point. There are God appointed “gods”. Does Jesus full into that category? You suggest he is not by …. “Jesus on the other hand made mankind john 1 VERSE 3 and sustains the universe they live in hebrews 1 verse1-3.”
Ok lets look at those verses. Please take note of the underlined words
“all things were made by
him, and without
him was not anything made that was made.” (KJV)
The Greek word rendered by
ia “a primary preposition denoting the channel of an act;” (Strongs Greek Word number 1223
). That tells us that Jesus was the agent that God used in creation. God was the originator of the acts of creation and Jesus was the agent or channel that God used to have the creation done. In Proverbs 22:30
where Jesus is spoken of as the personified wisdom, we are told that he was Gods master worker.
The next word without
is rendered from a Greek word that means “ at a space, i.e. separately or apart from” (Strongs Greek Word number 5565
). This is telling us that, apart from Jesus, God had everything else made through the agency of his master worker. It is not telling us that Jesus is the one that originates the creation. Just the same as if you decide to build a new house, you originate the idea and then you get an agent, a builder to do the work . When the house is finished, both you and the builder can rightly say that each of you built the house. The NWT renders that verse this way to correctly reflect the original word meanings … “All things came into existence through
him, and apart
from him not even one thing came into existence. What has come into existence”
What about Hebrews 1:3
, does that that tell us that Jesus is equal to God. Here, we are being told that Jesus was appointed the heir of Gods “things” and given power over them, not because he was equal to God, but because of
his dying for the sins of mankind. This is verified by other words Paul wrote as recorded at Philippians 2:8,9
“And … he humbled himself and became obedient
unto death, ….. 9 Therefore
God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name which is above every name” Lets look at context, and again, please notice the words underlined .
“2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son, whom he appointed
the heir of all things, through
whom also he created the world. 3 He reflects
the glory of God and bears the very stamp of his nature, upholding the universe by his word of power. When he had made purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,” (RSV)
In verse 2 we are told that the SON
had been appointed
. This Greek word has the basic meaning of “to set, put, place,” (Theyers Greek Lexicon) The word appointed shows us that the son is not equal to God. God has the power to do the appointing. .. set Jesus as the heir. What was the Son (Jesus) appointed to. We are told he was appointed as an heir. Ask yourself what an heir?
It is one who receives something form someone else. What did Jesus receive from God? “all things” , If Jesus was equal to God how is it that he had to receive
“all things”. It could only be that someone greater that the Son had the power to give it to him
The word through
in Vs 2 is the same word that is used by John that the KJV renders as “by
showing that the Son (whom God appointed) and again tells us that Jesus is Gods agent.
Moving o to verse 3. First we are told that Jesus “reflects
The KJV says “brightness”
The 1901 ASV says “effulgence” (many others use the same word)
The BBE says “ outshining”
The ESV says “radiance”
The NWT says “reflection”
So there are many variations to the way translators have rendered “ἀπαύγασμα “
I had to look up what Effulgence means, and an internet dictionary says “ is brightness taken to the extreme. You may be dazzled by it, stunned by it, or even overcome by it. Usually used to refer to the sun or some other mega-star, effulgence can also be used more figuratively.” http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/effulgence
Another one says “A brilliant radiance. …. the quality of being bright and sending out rays of light”
What does the Greek word “ἀπαύγασμα “ mean. Strongs tells me it is a compound word “ of 575 and 826; an off-flash,”
So what does word number 575 mean Stongs says “575. απο apo apo’; a primary particle; "off," i.e. away (from something near), in various senses (of place, time, or relation; literal or figurative): — (X here-)after, ago, at, because of, before, by (the space of), for(-th), from, in, (out) of, off, (up-)on(-ce), since, with. In composition (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.”
The last part is interesting “ (as a prefix) it usually denotes separation, departure, cessation, completion, reversal, etc.”
The Greek word “826” according to Strongs is “826. αυγαζω from 827; to beam forth (figuratively): — shine.”
Literaly then “ἀπαύγασμα “ means , “beaming forth from.”
What is Jesus the “effulgence” or “radience” of “ ???
We are told then that Jesus is the reflection, or brightness not of God, but, of Gods glory.
The next part of that text is interesting. In the RSV it says “ bears the very stamp”
The KJV says “the express image”
The 1901 ASV says “the very image”
The BBE says “the true image”
The Diaglot says “an exact impress”
The ESV says “the exact imprint”
The NWT says “exact representation “
All those different renderings give an idea of the Greek word used here, which is “χαρακτηρ” = character. Strongs says … “from the same as 5482; a graver (the tool or the person), i.e. (by implication) engraving (["character"], the figure stamped, i.e. an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): — express image.”
Now here we are told that Jesus is a copy - image – representation of God. If you look in the mirror you see a reflection (“ἀπαύγασμα “) or image (“χαρακτηρ”) of yourself, but it is not you. Our children can be a reflection or image of us. Have you ever heard someone say “ that child is the spitting image of his father”. That sasy that the child reflects the looks and qualities of his father but the child is not the father – they are not equal.
Now I last part of that text, does it show that Jesus “sustains the universe” ?
Of the 28 of Bibles I looked at I found the following to use “universe” ESV; GNB, RSV WEY, and Williams All the rest basically said “all things” or slight variation So what does the Greek Text say? The word used is the plural form of “ πᾶς “ = pas which means all. Because it is in the plural form “ πάντα “ it simply means “all things” and, it is the context that determines what the “all things” actually are. There is nothing in that
particular passage that tells us just what the “all things” are. However there are other passages that do shed light on that.
Neither John 1:3
nor Hebrews 1:3
are telling us that Jesus is equal to the Father. They tell us that God is superior to Jesus in all respects. It was Gods choice to used Jesus as his master worker in creating the heaven and the earth, and that because of his obedience to his Father, Jesus was appointed as Gods heir over “all things”. With that comes the responsibility of exercising power (or authority) of what His God and Father has given him
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hi brenton.
Thanks for reply brenton.
Brenton I cant see your reasoning is being loyal to sound bible exegesis.
The jews wanted to stone jesus in john 5 because he was making himself equal with God by calling God his OWN father!
You quoted a scripture from john chapter 5 to try and prove jesus isnt equal with his father however look at john 5:23 and please read it in greek, jesus didnt correct the jews he didnt say "hold on guys im not saying im equal with God", but what he did say to the same ones trying to kill him for making himself equal with his father is ,Honour me JUST AS you Honour the FATHER". The greek word used here is kathos for just as.
also we see this honour that jesus spoke of being fulfilled in revelation 5:13 not only honour but also GLORY.
This is clear that jesus is equal with his father they are two seperate persons but echad (one).
One in nature.
Perhaps you could explain more clearly, please, why my “ reasoning is[not] being loyal to sound bible exegesis “ Where have I not been careful in my examinations?
For any readers that do not know what exegesis means ... “critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially of scripture.”
I have been very carefully examining different texts and word meanings to arrive at a conclusion.
This time I will look at the texts you refer to and examine them carefully
tells us to honour Jesus just as we honour the father. There is nothing unusual in that. The custom of those days as it is today, son of a king was to be honoured as the king. That does not make the son the same as the king. How does one honour another person? By showing them the due respect for the postilion they hold. In the case of Jesus and his father by obeying.
The Greek word for honour used here is “ timao” with the following meanings
“to prize, i.e. fix a valuation upon; by implication, to revere: — honour, value.” Stromgd word number 5091
Thayers Geeek lexicon gives us the following
1 to estimate, to fix the value; middle to fix the value of something belonging to oneself
to honor (so uniformly A. V.), to have in honor, to revere, venerate
The same word used in John rendered honor is used of other men, our parents, widows and such things as material possessions. Here are it occurrences in the NT where we can see how “ timao” (honour) is used
For God commanded, saying, Honour <5091> thy father and mother: and, He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death.
And honour <5091> not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.
This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth <5091> me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Honour <5091> thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Then was fulfilled that which was spoken by Jeremy the prophet, saying, And they took the thirty pieces of silver, the price of him that was valued <5091>, whom they of the children of Israel did value <5091>;
He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth <5091> me with their lips, but their heart is far from me.
For Moses said, Honour <5091> thy father and thy mother; and, Whoso curseth father or mother, let him die the death:
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour <5091> thy father and mother.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour <5091> thy father and thy mother.
That all men should honour <5091> the Son, even as they honour <5091> the Father. He that honoureth <5091> not the Son honoureth <5091> not the Father which hath sent him.
Jesus answered, I have not a devil; but I honour <5091> my Father, and ye do dishonour me.
If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will <5091> my Father honour <5091>.
Who also honoured us with many honours <5091>; and when we departed, they laded us with such things as were necessary.
Honour <5091> thy father and mother; (which is the first commandment with promise;)
Honour <5091> widows that are widows indeed.
Honour <5091> all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour <5091> the king.
Yes in Revelation 5:13
Jesus receives glory. May I ask,How does that show that are equal? Going back to the idea of a prince and a king. When a prince is used by the king for a very important assignment, as a representative of the King, the prince would be exalted because of his obedience to his father the king and would receive the same honour and glory as the king. So hat does that the Greek word “doxa” (honour Strongs word number 1391) mean
Thaeyrs Greek Lexicon gives us the following
1. properly:; of the sun, moon, stars, used of the heavenly brightness
2. magnificence, excellence, preeminence, dignity, grace: i. e. their resources, wealth, the magnificence and greatness of their cities, their fertile lands, their thronging population.. used of royal state,
a. that which belongs to God; and a. the kingly majesty which belongs to him as the supreme ruler;
b. majesty which belongs to Christ; and the kingly majesty of the Messiah, to which belongs his kingly state, the splendor of His external appearance,
4. a most glorious condition, most exalted state;
a. of that condition with God the Father in heaven to which Christ was raised after he had achieved his work on earth
b. "the glorious condition of blessedness into which it is appointed and promised that true Christians shall enter … which condition begins to be enjoyed even now through the devout contemplation of the divine majesty of Christ, and its influence upon those who contemplate it,
When Jesus was on earth he said that glory was not his but Gods and that God gave him glory and Jesus was able to give glory to his followers
And I seek not mine own glory <1391>: there is one that seeketh and judgeth.
Jesus answered, If I honour <1392> myself, my honour <1391> is nothing: it is my Father that honoureth <1392> me; of whom ye say, that he is your God:
And the glory <1391> which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory <1391>, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
So again there is nothing in those verses that tell us that Jesus is an equal partner with his father as God. There is a need to examine ALL that is written and not just a few verses.
Yes they are two separate persons, on that we agree. But are they equal in knowledge, power, time of existence, or . one in nature? I know of no where in the Bible that tells us that Jesus and God share nature exclusively to themselves. There is an old argument that I have heard many times...
“ The son of dog is dog. The son of man is man. The son of God is God. “ This is supposed to tell us that Jesus and God have the same nature and thus proving they are one. .
I see a couple of problems with this
First to make sense in English the above should read “ The son of dog is a
dog. The son of man is a
man. The son of god is a
god.“ Why does the word god all of sudden have a capital “G”. The son of a dog belongs to a group called dog. The son of a man belongs to the group called man and the son of god belongs to a group called god.
Second ,the word god is a title. It basically means a “mighty one” or a “strong one” The son of a “strong man” is not necessary strong.
Thirdly, The word god, as a title, is equal to the word king or president. It describes a positions that some one hold. When speaking generally the word god, king and president do not have the first letter capitalized. We capitalize the first letter when referring to a specific God, King or President. The son of a king may or may not be a king one day. To be a king the father must either dies or appoint the son to that position. In our society is is extremely rare that the son of a president become a president
And fourthly, the problem is, just what is the nature of God? The Bible tells us what Gods nature is and that is, “God is a Spirit” (John 4:24
) There are many spirit creatures that are called “sons of God”
<Job 1:6</b> “Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.”
“When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?”
Humans that obey the words of Jesus are called sons of God Galations 3:6
“for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith.” (the KJV renders huios = sons as “children of God”)
Perhaps you mean that Jesus as a “divine nature”. And that God has the same “divine nature” which sets them apart from the rest of creation. The term “divine nature” appears only once in most Bibles, twice in some, and up to three times in at least one that I have.
Being God’s offspring, then, we shouldn’t think that the divine nature
is like gold or silver or stone, an image fashioned by human art and imagination. (Holman Christian)
29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead
is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man’s device. (KJV)
The Greek word here is “theios” (Stongs word number 2304) it is used twice in the NT. The KJV renders it once as Godhead and as divine – 2 Peter 1:4
Another place where “divine nature appears in some Bibles is at
“From the creation of the world His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature
, have been clearly seen, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse.” (Holman Christian Bible , GNB also uses divine nature
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead
; so that they are without excuse: (KJV)
The Greek word here is “theiotes” (Stongs word number 2305) this is the only time it appears in the NT
The only place where most
Bibles have the term “divine nature” is at 2 Peter 1:4
. It is a combination “theios” (mentioned above) and “phusis” (Srongs word number 5449) and means “growth (by germination or expansion), i.e. (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension, a genus or sort; figuratively, native disposition, constitution or usuage: — ([man-])kind, nature([-al]).”
The usage of this combination of words is most interesting as we are told that the ones having “divine nature” included humans
Whereby are given unto us
exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers
of the divine nature
, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.”
There is no texts that tell us that Jesus and the Father are united into a special relationship that is to be refereed to as God.
PS. I will be away for about a week or so from this forum.