Jehovah`s Witness/JW Baptism
QUESTION: Hello DW.
I read through your and wonder if you could address the following.
1. I am not clear as there seemed to be a leap. You stated:
"Before we can even make disciples ourselves ,we have to recognize Jehovah's organization." It is not clear how you arrived at this statement. Could you please clarify as it does not seem consistent with Jesus' clear directive at Matt 28:19,20.
2. Your accounts/reasoning which centered on the eunuch seem to ignore the account of the jailor and his household in Acts 16:33. Given the individual, his family, occupation etc and timing to baptism as well as verse at Acts 16:31 there seems to be a need for clarification. Could you please address.
ANSWER: Hi mate,thanks for writing
Here's something that you appear to be failing to grasp . Baptism texts are baptism texts they are biblical pattern for baptism. What we're trying to do here is get God's thoughts on what we need to do before baptism and not our own traditions or own opinions.
Jesus words are clear. I agree and I did address them. Just ask yourself one question what is the name of the holy spirit?? It does not have a name. Therefore we have to be baptized in "recognition" of something . Just as in the "name" of the law means in recognition of the law and all that it stands for. To just pick out one verse and use that as a text for all of whole baptism without trying to figure out what those words mean, doesn't work it makes no sense for Jesus to use the expression "in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit and then leave everyone to guess what those words mean. The Bible tells us what they mean.
Let's just take one aspect the Father. The Father was the God of the Jews, Jehovah ,the ONE true God. There is no trinity with the Jews. If you don't recognize that, that is who the Father is then you are immediately failing the requirement for baptism in Matt 28: 19 because you don't recognize the Father. I need to go no further than that then to show that every trinitarian baptism is the wrong baptism. We have just discounted every trinitarian baptism on the planet what are we left with??
There's just so many way's to go with this look at some of the things Jesus said about his Father.
John 6:45 "It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by Jehovah"
Immediately Jesus directs us to the PROPHETS the Hebrew scriptures to teach us recognition of his Father. There's hundreds of scriptures here's just one.
4 "In the final part of the days,
The mountain of the house of Jehovah
Will become firmly established above the top of the mountains,
And it will be raised up above the hills,
And to it peoples will stream.
2 And many nations will go and say:
“Come, let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah
And to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will instruct us about his ways,
And we will walk in his paths.”
For law will go out of Zion,
And the word of Jehovah out of Jerusalem.
3 He will render judgment among many peoples
And set matters straight respecting mighty nations far away.
They will beat their swords into plowshares
And their spears into pruning shears.
Nation will not lift up sword against nation,
Nor will they learn war anymore"
This is Jehovah's organization right here!!
This is recognition of the Father recognition of his organization. How about this
44 "And in the days of those kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite"
Again recognition of the kingdom set up by Jesus own Father
What about the verse I used with Philip
26 "However, Jehovah’s angel spoke to Philip, saying: “Get up and go to the south to the road that runs down from Jerusalem to Gaz′a"
Philip had to recognize the Angels role in making disciples in order to carry out this work
19" Go, therefore, and make disciples of people of all the nations"
This is work on a worldwide scale and angels have a huge role in that work ,again this is all recognition of Jehovah's organization. If you don't know the angels role as Philip did then how are you going to recognize the angels role in your commission to find others to baptize??
2) Firstly we see this man showed recognition that Paul knew how he could be saved he showed faith in that fact
30 He brought them outside and said: “Sirs, what must I do to get saved?
32 Then they spoke the word of Jehovah/the lord to him together with all those in his house
They could not be baptized until they had learnt the word of God.
Then and only then, they were baptized.
So again we see recognizing and acting upon that recognition is essential for baptism.
I'm not here to try and force you to do anything. I'm happy to help you and answer your questions be assured about that. But as I showed today and yesterday the reason we baptize the way we do is because we follow the biblical pattern of baptism. Of course I want you to recognize that is how the bible shows us it should be done. Of course I want you to recognize that we take our responsibility to baptize others seriously, but it's up to you whether you choose to believe or not. I can't or have no desire to force you.
Let me leave you with one more scripture
4 "if you keep seeking for it as for silver, and as for hid treasures you keep searching for it, 5 in that case you will understand the fear of Jehovah, and you will find the very knowledge of God"
The knowledge of God is like HIDDEN treasure. Will you keep digging for it as for hidden treasure or will you be like Christendom just picking up worthless scraps up off the floor, thinking that is the treasure ??
Off the site for about a week
---------- FOLLOW-UP ----------
QUESTION: Hello again.
Thanks for responding. You however seemed to go off on things that had nothing to do with my questions also proceeded to infer/make assumptions e.g. traditions or opinions statements. Further I fully understand about pattern and that is precisely why I asked the question.
My questions had nothing to do with the trinity. Why mention?. I am in fact not a trinitarian. Why resort to statements about "forcing"?
I simply asked about your conclusion about recognizing the organization since no logical trail to that conclusion was provided at the time.
Given instances where baptism took place without specific teaching of such (e.g. 3000 being baptised as relayed in Acts, Cornelius and the jailor as examples). I hoped you could provide a logical laid out basis for the conclusion. From what you wrote you seem to be inferring it from non baptismal texts. The Bible touches on many things, it does not mean they all need to be recognized before baptism. So pointing to scriptures on topics, or events that led to a situation does not necessarily justify that they need to be recognized by the one being baptized. Perhaps with that in mind, can you take another go at this. If not for my sake, as you seem to think I am arguing with you, then for other readers with some difficulty grasping.
Thanks for writing
You seem to be under a misapprehension for the reason as to my comments. I mentioned traditions and trinitarian baptism not necessarily for your purpose but for others reading. In my experience many people don't realize where certain ideas come from, most of it, specifically religion is purely traditional.This is something that true worshippers should avoid. Also many people learn by process of elimination so once you've eliminated all trinitarian baptisms as false your options are narrowed down as to what is right. Many of my answers focus on process of elimination. If you are going to be writing to me you need to be aware that this is how I approach most questions. Another point is you claim no logical conclusion was reached the first time. The person who wrote to me would get the point as he has some knowledge of the use of angels in Jehovah's organization. Those who don't such as yourself usually follow up not getting the point and that's when I expand as I did in my last letter.
I'm struggling to see what you don't get, I thought I made it pretty simple. Unless your problem is just not clear to me. However I shall give it one more try just in case what I said really wasn't that clear .So let me try and make this really simple for you. We have two aspects here one is that we must baptize in recognition of the Father,Son and Holy spirit two is that it is our responsibility to do that.
To work out how we carry out that responsibility we use the scriptures as an example . What we know is that we Jehovah doesn't care how we carry out our responsibilities as long as they are within the boundaries Jehovah has set and as long as we take them seriously. This point is made clear in this illustration
24 “Finally the slave who had received the one talent came forward and said: ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow. 25 So I grew afraid and went and hid your talent in the ground. Here, you have what is yours.’ 26 In reply his master said to him: ‘Wicked and sluggish slave, you knew, did you, that I reaped where I did not sow and gathered where I did not winnow? 27 Well, then, you should have deposited my money with the bankers, and on my coming I would have received it back with interest"
The slave could have used his responsibility in any way he chose as long as he used it wisely and took his task seriously.
So in EVERY bible account about baptism we see that certain teaching took place they where taught about Jesus, they were spoken the word of God too, they where explained things and they understood etc etc etc and then and only then where they baptized.We don't know exactly what level they where at in there understanding the bible doesn't say. It's quite clear the Jews would have known Jehovah that's as much as we know their missing piece was the accounts of the Christ that Jehovah had recorded many , many times in their bible. The gentiles we can only hazard a guess what they knew but quite simply they where still taught the word of God before baptism. How many of the baptism questions that we have now they could of answered we do not know the bible does not say so it's pure speculation .The bible doesn't give us specific information except that they where taught about God and Jesus before baptism. That is a simple fact, whatever way you slice it.
So what this boils down to is this. The fact that we take our God given responsibility very seriously. As an organization we sat down and said "how can we take the responsibility that we have been given to baptize others in recognition of father son and holy spirit, seriously?" "Well lets look at bible pattern, let's recognize the fact that everyone who got baptized had knowledge of who they where dedicating themselves too and let's use that pattern to formulate questions that allows the person being baptized to recognize exactly what they are doing" So that is what happened. Hence living up to our responsibility and taking it seriously we make sure a person recognizes exactly what they are doing and it's importance and exactly who they are dedicating there life too.
So realistically all someone can argue is "I don't agree that this is how to take your responsibility seriously" I will say "I disagree" Then it goes back and forth and it get's no where.
A final point is this . Baptism is the most important thing someone will ever do in their life. If anyone believe's that you can dedicate your life to someone without knowing that person or realizing exactly what you are doing then I pity them. They wouldn't do it before marriage so why before baptism?? the biggest decision of their life. It makes no sense.On a personal note I am very grateful for the baptism questions they certainly made me want to dedicate my life to my Father and I guarantee that I'm not alone.