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Jehovah`s Witness/REPLY to DW's Post About Logic and the Bible

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Question
What follows, is part of my response to DW's latest assertions regarding logic, and his determination to misrepresent and distort my position.  And also, I have responded to several of the points in his article.

Answer
The readers of the board have often seen me use the term “straw man”, when describing JW debate tactics.  The reason for this, is that they use so many of them in their discussions.  In fact, I am convinced people like DW, could not survive a discussion without them.  The problem is, when they try to use them on someone who has a great deal of experience with these false arguments, and knows when to expect them, and how to spot them.  “Straw man” arguments only work with people not familiar with the tactic, or those who simply aren’t thinking things through.  

A “straw man” argument, as used in debates or discussions, is defined this way….

“a weak or imaginary opposition (as an argument or adversary) set up only to be easily confuted “

In plain terms, a “straw man” is an INVENTION in the mind of the person using the straw man.  It is an argument that he/she has concocted themselves, and falsely CLAIMED to have come from their opponent.  The person setting up the “straw man”, then proceeds to attack, and refute, the “straw man” argument.  The only problem is, the argument was never used by their opponent.  They merely refuted an argument that they themselves invented.

Now, we have been told SEVERAL times as of late, that “Derrick Holland does not believe the Bible is logical”.  Or, “Derrick Holland does not believe the Bible can be understood”, or some such hogwash as that.  But of course, we are STILL yet to see any such statement from me.  Its rather odd that the very 2 people who are making this claim, can neither one, provide such a comment.  

This is why I consistently, and regularly, challenge these guys for quotes when they claim that I believe, or “said”, something.  And the readers have noticed by now, that they NEVER actually provide the quotes asked for.  

And there is a very good reason for that, and the readers know what that reason is.  Because it was a “straw man”.

Now, I am not going to spend hour upon hour, responding to every single point in this writing of DW’s.  There is no need to…..Much of it is just repeat stuff, which has already been refuted, but DW has no alternative left but to just keep repeating it.  We  have already discussed that strategy, as well, and the desperate nature of it.  

And again, it is full of straw man arguments….Claims about my position, which do NOT, and never have, represented my position.  Again, there is a reason why DW never gives actual quotes or links, as I do.  Because DW utilizes, and attempts to survive, on “straw man” arguments.

I would like to share this, as well.  I rarely ever involve my wife in the discussions on this forum.  She did not grow up JW, and even though she respects my burden for them, she honestly has no interest in this site.  But I did share with her the latest debacle, for the simple reason that I knew she would get a kick out of it.  (I probably had better rephrase that, lest Rando start lying and claiming I abuse my wife, again.)  I knew she would find it humorous...let's just say it that way.  

When I told her the latest debacle on Allexperts, was that DW was claiming that I don’t believe in using “logic” to understand the Scriptures, she looked at me like, “Seriously?  You’ve got to be kidding!"  Her exacts words were….“REALLY!  WOW!!”

The reason for that, is because if you ask her what my biggest flaw is that drives her up the wall the most, it’s the fact that I over-analyze everything.  For years, she has told me that I analyze everything to death, and that I think everything has to be solved “logically”.  Furthermore, she knows that I preach and teach the Bible this way, as well….That I simply break down a verse, compare it with other verses, and see what it is saying.

So, for someone to suggest that I do not use “logic”, she found quite funny.  Because that is the thing about me, that probably annoys her the most.  There have been several times that she has been trying to tell me about something bothering her, and has had to tell me (because she knows how I am), that “I don’t need you to break this down and solve it for me…I just need you to listen to me” .  So, that was the reason I told her that I was now being accused of saying that we are not to use “logic”, or that we can “pick and choose where to use it”.  

Now, what I am going to do in this post, is to simply set straight DW’s false statements (again), and show a few of the countless examples where DW and JW doctrine are not “logical”.  And one of them, will be quite basic, and it will be interesting to see what DW will do with it.  It will be at the end of this writing, and will be a LOGICAL look at what the Bible says about lying.  Perhaps he can show me where my understanding is not “logical”.  But I highly doubt it.

Here is an example from DW’s latest writing, of setting up a false “straw man”, and then attacking it…..

DW:“Derrick claims we use logic until the bible contradicts logic. The problem is there is just so many problems with that idea.”

REPLY:  Well, if that “claim” had indeed been made by me, then it should be addressed.  But again, why didn’t DW SHOW where this claim was made by me?  The readers already know that answer….This is the reason Rando has shown up, trying to pull DW out of the quicksand by rambling about the Trinity, again.  Who didn’t know that was coming?  And Rando is beyond desperate at this point, now trying to claim I’m a Mason, and a member of the KKK.  Good grief, how desperate can a person get?  Even after I already told him….I’m not even a Southern Baptist.  

But again, DW clearly sets up a false premise, and then attacks it.  Why?  Because he cannot actually refute anything that I DID say, and this embarrasses him, so he has no alternative but to INVENT something I did not say, and claim I did.

That is how a coward debates….Not a true Christian.  I would LOVE to see where I made the comment “Derrick claims we use logic until the Bible contradicts logic” .  I never once said the “Bible contradicts logic” .  I said the Bible sometimes goes BEYOND HUMAN logic.  A "logical" person would understand the difference.  DW obviously does not.

DW forgets….God’s logic is much higher than ours.  I believe numerous Scriptures were given in a previous writing, to show this.  

An example of DW’s “logical” thinking, comes from a quote from the man himself.  I could list hundreds of illogical statements from this person.  I mean, its basically…”Take your pick” .  But this one was made not too long ago, and I want to list it as an example…..

DW:  ““So it looks like Christendom should be putting more emphasis on the subject of divorce and forget hellfire altogether.”

REPLY:  How is this statement “logical”, in any way, shape, or form? Implying that, since there is another completely unrelated subject altogether (divorce) that we should be emphasizing, then we should also “forget Hellfire altogether”.

He seems to be implying that wee should forget one Bible teaching, just because we should be spending time addressing another one, as well? There are simply no words…..

It is bizarre to me, that a man could write with a straight face, that we should “forget” one Bible teaching, because there is another one that needs addressing, too. I thought the idea was that we preach ALL of the Word of God?

So much for “logical” thinking.

But since my position has continually been misrepresented, let me set his falsehoods straight….

First, my position…..I believe that logic SHOULD be used, not only in daily life and in making decisions, but also in our Scriptural studies.  I have never said anything so stupid, as that we can “pick and choose where to use it”, as DW has lied several times now, and made this claim publicly.  

Again, where are the quotes, Mr. DW?  People have noticed by now, that you are too scared to provide any.

What I have also said, and this has been my premise all along, is that there are LIMITS to HUMAN logic, and when our HUMAN logic is in contrast with a Scripture, then HUMAN logic does not trump the Scripture.  God’s Word is the final authority, whether we think its “logical” in human terms, or not.  Either the final authority is what the Bible says, or what my “logic” thinks it means, and should say.

And this is where DW’s comprehension falls short.  He does not grasp one simple fact….That there is a vast difference between saying something is BEYOND human logic, and saying that it is “illogical”.  He confuses the two.  There is nothing in the Bible that is not “logical”, because that would mean that the God that inspired it, is not logical.  But there ARE things in the Bible, that are BEYOND HUMAN “logic”.  This does not mean they are illogical…It means they are beyond a human’s ability to see them logically.

Now, I simply laugh at DW’s claim that every verse in the Bible he can figure out logically.  And this coming from the very man who has made some of the most ILLOGICAL statements this board has ever seen.  And some of his interpretations, defy all sense of “logic”.  But we shall cover that.

But yes, there are things in the Bible that are completely logical from God’s standpoint, but which do go beyond “human logic”.  This has nothing to do with us “picking and choosing” anything….It simply means if God tells us something, we listen.  We don’t tear it apart and say, “Well, I don’t think that’s logical” .  We do it anyway.

And that is actually the MOST logical position for a Christian....Trusting that God knows far more than we do, and His words are always to be believed and obeyed, over the ideas of man.  That is the very foundation for true "logic".

But back to HUMAN logic, and its limits.  One example of many, comes to mind....

I am pretty certain that Abraham was not able to “LOGICALLY” reason out why God was telling him to kill the very son whom God had previously told him would he his heir, and that his descendants would be as the sand of the sea.  That one is hard to work out from the standpoint of HUMAN logic.  I am sure Abraham was thinking that it was going to be tough for Isaac to have descendants, if he were dead before having the chance to have any.  

But Abraham trusted in GOD”S logic….He simply obeyed.  He did not argue, he did not try to say “Well, this makes no logical sense.  This must not really be Jehovah telling me this, since Jehovah has already told me that Isaac will have innumerable descendants.  So, I am going to reject this, based on the fact its not logical”

No, Abraham understood that obeying God was more important than logically understanding the reason for this command.  He knew that God had a logical reason, even if he couldn’t see it.  

Basically, God’s Word trumps HUMAN logic.   

Seems like a pretty simple concept to me.

In fact, its also a Scriptural one.  There are several Scriptures, which bear out the fact that our human “logic”, is in no way on equal ground with the Word of God, or His thoughts.  How arrogant to think otherwise!

Let me list a few verses.  I will even list them from DW’s own NWT….

Job 36:26-  “Yes, God is greater than we can know; The number of his years is beyond comprehension”

DW, you should’ve been there to correct Elihu for this statement.  He obviously didn’t have your powers of “reasoning”.

Job 11:7-  “Can you discover the deep things of God Or discover everything about the Almighty?  It is higher than heaven. What can you accomplish? It is deeper than the Grave. What can you know?”

Job 37: 23-24-  “Understanding the Almighty is beyond our reach; He is great in power, And he never violates his justice and abundant righteousness. Therefore, people should fear him. For he does not favor any who think that they are wise.”

Isaiah 55:8-9-  ““For my thoughts are not your thoughts, And your ways are not my ways,” declares Jehovah. “For as the heavens are higher than the earth, So my ways are higher than your ways And my thoughts than your thoughts.

But WAIT!!  I thought DW has told us that he CAN “logically” figure out ANY Scripture in the Bible?  But we just read here, that Jehovah Himself says His thoughts are NOT our “thoughts”.  Does DW really think he can “think” his way into understanding everything in the Bible, in light of this verse?  

He forgets one thing….Understanding of the Scripture, comes FIRST, by believing it as its written, and submitting our will to its authority.  When a man thinks he is going to figure it all out by using his OWN logic, and placing that “logic” above God’s clear statements, he is sure to make a fool of himself.  Just like what we have been seeing here.

Romans 11:33-34-  “O the depth of God’s riches and wisdom and knowledge! How unsearchable his judgments are and beyond tracing out his ways are!”

For “who has come to know Jehovah’s mind, or who has become his adviser?”


Here’s a nice passage from the NWT, that completely smacks DW’s assertion back down to earth….

Romans 9:20-24-  “But who are you, O man, to be answering back to God?  Does the thing molded say to its molder: “Why did you make me this way?”

What? Does not the potter have authority over the clay to make from the same lump one vessel for an honorable use, another for a dishonorable use?

What, then, if God had the will to demonstrate his wrath and to make his power known, and he tolerated with much patience vessels of wrath made fit for destruction?

And if this was done to make known the riches of his glory on vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory,

namely, us, whom he called not only from among Jews but also from among nations, what of it?”

Uhm DW, I believe the obvious and “logical” point of this passage, is that God does what He pleases, with or without our permission, or regardless of whether we think it is fair, or “makes sense” logically.  Is that what you get from this passage, as well?

So, why don’t you just argue with God and the Scriptures some more about everything you don’t like (the bodily resurrection, Hell, etc.), because it doesn’t seem “logical” to you?


Now, this leads us to another aspect of this point about logic.  This is not a question of whether we should use logic, but WHO’S “logic” do we go with?  I believe that one question, outlines clearly the fallacy of DW’s position.  He maintains that every verse of Scripture can be explained “logically”.  Yes, but by WHO’S “logic”?  I maintain we submit our human understanding to God’s logic.  DW maintains that our logic is good enough.  

But this creates a problem…I consider myself a thinking man, and I see severe holes in DW’s “logic”.  But DW thinks he is perfectly logical in his thinking.  Many readers of this board think I am more logical than DW.  And SOME JWs, and their sympathizers, will say DW is more logical.  But the simple fact is, both sides cannot be right.  

And that is the problem with using HUMAN logic as the final authority.  Man is a sinful creature, and tends to take great liberties with the Scriptures, based on what he WANTS to believe is true or false.  That is the inherent danger in making HUMAN logic the final authority.

No doubt, DW will be kicking and screaming again, that “Derrick says that we should not use logic”.  No, Derrick says that we should “put on the mind of Christ”, and adjust our thinking to God’s way of thinking.  THAT is the most “logical” course of action.  But if the Bible teaches things that we as humans don’t see as “logical”, that does not mean they are illogical….It merely means they are beyond our limited powers of logic.

I realize that point will fly right over DW’s head, so let’s illustrate it.  I am going to take another comment from his writing, and we will see the vast difference in our “logic”.

DW CLAIMED he was going to answer my “questions”.  Actually, he did not.  He attempted to feebly answer ONE of them, and that is the one I am going to talk about here.  

Now DW, my MAIN question which has been asked and REPEATED to you countless times, is whether you have a statement written BY ME, that denies that we should use logic, or that we can pick and choose?

And you never answered that question, DW.  And you know it.

But let’s look at the one you attempted to reply to.  I had asked you….

“DW, if the “current interpretation of the Slave” happens to conflict with the Bible, then what do we do? Do we….  

1. Go with the Bible, and be accused of “pushing ahead” of the “Slave”, and being prideful as if we aren‘t submitting to “Jehovah‘s way of doing things“?

Or….

2. Go with the “Slave”, and be unscriptural, but at least we are “in step” with the Organization? I mean, hey, we might be unscriptural, but at least we are all unscriptural together. That’s a good thing, right?

What say you, DW? The Slave, or the Bible?

Now, DW made an attempt to address this.  Only after I had asked these questions of him SEVERAL times.   After reading his answer, I can see why he didn’t want to tackle them.  

These questions came about, as a result of my exposing DW’s ridiculous statement “Now here’s the truth.   Every Bible teaching by the Slave is the correct one, until the time they tell you otherwise.” .  

After suffering the embarrassment of having this statement “LOGICALLY” and “Scripturally” torn apart, DW decided to change it, to read this way….

““"here's the truth every Bible interpretation is the current one , until the time the faithful slave say otherwise"

This new statement created many NEW problems, and solved none.  And this statement, was the basis for DW’s “answer” to my question.

But is it logical?  Let’s test it, by looking at DW’s LONG over-due answer to my question….He writes….

“ Christendom don't have any concept of the bible. Their bible contains the teachings of Jesus and that's mainly about it.

(Not sure what that comment was supposed to mean, since my Bible has the same 66 Books that his does, and also verses that his “bible” removed for whatever reason).

Their concept of the bible contains nothing about the faithful slave as men appointed by Jesus to take the lead in the christian congregation. Yet this is what the Bible clearly say's we have verses such as this”

So here, we have his premise….Christendom is totally unaware of the “faithful slave as men appointed by Jesus”.  No actually, we simply don’t believe the Watchtower is where those men are found, and we have some quite compelling reasons for this, if you would like to discuss them “logically”, DW.  We can do that in another post, if you’d like.

The fact is, if you ask DW TODAY the identity of the “Slave”, his answer will be different from what it was 3 years ago.  So, before he wants to lecture us about getting the Slave’s identity correct, his own religion might want to stop flip-flopping around on it.  

But suffice to say, we do not deny that God has called men to preach the truth of God’s Word.  We just deny that those men reside in New York, at WT headquarters.  We do not believe the way they have bounced around on Bible teachings, is either “logical”, or “Scriptural”.  

But let’s read on….He writes….

“17 "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account"

Acts 2:

42" And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles"

As we see submission to those taking the lead and teachings of the apostles is part of true worship it's vitally important. These scriptures do not read like this

Hebrews 13:

17 "Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over you as those who will render an account, DO THIS AS LONG AS YOU PERSONALLY AGREE WITH THEM"

Acts 2:

42" And they continued devoting themselves to the teaching of the apostles AS LONG AS THE APOSTLES AGREED WITH THEIR UNDERSTANDING OF THE SCRIPTURES"

Wow, where to begin.  So many problems with this “logic”.  

First, DW seems to confuse the “Apostles’” teachings, with those of the WT Society.  I don’t recall the Apostles always changing their minds, or having to remind people that “Now, this is the CURRENT teaching that we accept as truth, but be ready to change at a moment’s notice, if we tell you to” “ .  I don’t recall seeing that anywhere.

Furthermore, he forgets that the Apostle’s teachings and writings later became Scripture, and thus, were inspired by God.  He himself admit’s the WT leaders are NOT inspired.  And they are not.  Poor comparison there, DW.

So yes, following the teachings of the Apostles, is vital to true worship.  They were inspired of God, and their doctrine was consistent.  Following the teaching of the Watchtower, is not vital to true worship, because they are NOT inspired, and their doctrine changes at any given time.

No such pattern exists in the New Testament Church, like we see in the ever-changing doctrines of the Watchtower.  

So, DW’s entire premise is based on an ASSUMPTION that he must hold to, to base his premise on….That the “Slave” (GB of Jehovah’s Witnesses), has been appointed by God.  That is the underlying assumption, from which everything else proceeds from.  But LOGICALLY, we can conclude that they do NOT comprise the “Slave”, since their teachings are subject to change, then they may change again, and again, and again….And sometimes, even revert back to a previous viewpoint.

Where did the Apostles do that?

He is correct, that the Scriptures do not tell us to follow them, as long as we PERSONALLY agree with them, or as long as they agree with our understanding of the Scriptures.  But neither does it say in the Bible that we are to follow ANY group of men today, and view those pronouncements as absolute truth, if those pronouncements disagree with plain statements in the Scripture.  

And again….the Apostles wrote under inspiration.  The men at WT Headquarters do not.

But there IS a verse, that I think DW might have overlooked…..

Acts 17:11-  “These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.”

The Christians in Berea were called “noble”, for MAKING SURE that what Paul was telling them, was Scriptural.  Paul was not offended.  He did not push for their being reprimanded or disfellowshipped.  He did not begin babbling some jibberish about Now here’s the truth…every Bible teaching by the Slave is the correct one, until the time they tell you otherwise.”

No…there was no need.  Paul was speaking to them truth, and he knew that searching the Scriptures would only confirm this.  He did not advise them to “avoid independent thinking”….he commended them for testing what he taught, by the Scriptures.

So yes, we ARE to test everything from the Scripture…not just place ourselves under someone else’s leadership, and then say…“Okay, whatever they tell me from here on out, is the truth, no matter what…Until they change their mind, that is.  And then I will change with them, because this is how Jehovah God does things” .

You’ve gotta be kidding, DW.  

Futhermore, why does the Scripture give us several warnings against “false brethren”, and “heresies” being promoted by others who claim to be Bible teachers?  Why warn us?  Wouldn’t this be pointless, if we weren’t supposed to examine the Scriptures for ourselves.

Now, he asserts that I do not understand submission to those over me.  I assure him that I do.  But I am careful who I put myself under in the first place.  I submit to my Pastor.  If he asks me to call someone or visit them, I do it.  If he comes to me and asks me to take a few weeks of Sunday School and teach on a certain topic that he thinks is beneficial, I do it.  I do not usurp his role.  However, that does not mean that I am going to sit there mindless and think that I am to take his pronouncements over God’s Word, if they ever conflict.  There are a few minor points that I actually disagree with him on…MINOR ones.  Nothing to fall out over.  But I also know that he takes seriously, his role in giving the Word of God.  I know that Word is his final authority.  That is why I have no problem in submitting to his leadership.  But if he ever veers away from the Bible, I will call him on it.  And that’s the way it should be.  I certainly do not sit there with the notion that I am going to believe everything he ever says, regardless of what the Bible says about it.  

And finally, DW makes this comment….

“Derrick asks do you go with the bible or go with the slave?? Well quite clearly to submit the slave is going with the bible. To not submit is going against the bible. Jesus appointed a slave to take the lead and feed the sheep we submit to the authority of the Christ.”

Uh, not so fast.  I want the readers to notice again, this statement from him…

“Well quite clearly to submit the slave is going with the bible. To not submit is going against the bible. “

Folks, this says it all right here.  Now, this is SO ILLOGICAL, I would be remiss if I didn’t point it out.

First off, my question asked him which to go with, IF THEY CONFLICT.  He conveniently edited that part out, and ignored it.

This statement, more than any other, shows that DW’s FIRST statement (the one I have been exposing), is actually what he believes….That whatever the Slave teaches currently, is Bible truth, UNTIL they decide it isn’t.  Then, we are supposed to follow the Slave to the NEXT ‘Biblical” teaching, which may also change.  There it is…in his own words.  To go against the Slave, is to go against God.

Why is this a problem?  Because in his revised statement, he has NO choice but to acknowledge that the Slave may be, at any given time, teaching something that is contrary to the Bible.  Here is the revised statement once again….

"here's the truth every Bible interpretation is the current one , until the time the faithful slave say otherwise"

There it is….He admits that the Slave can “say otherwise”…aka…change their mind on any given teaching.  Now, he has 2 choices….Either admit that the Slave can possibly be teaching something unscriptural, OR, maintain that the teachings of the Bible can change.  

Pick your poison…

He admits that their Bible interpretations are “current”, meaning that they may not be what was taught previously, and may not be taught in the future.  And we are to adjust, and follow the Slave anyway.

There you have it….Do we go with the Slave or  the Bible, when there is a conflict?  Why, the Slave, of course!!  Because to do otherwise, is to go against God.

Now, let’s just put that sorry notion out of its misery, here and now.  Let me show the ILLOGICAL nature of this position.

DW says we are supposed to go with the Slave, because to not do so, would be to go against Jehovah.  Yet, he ADMITS that the Slave is not inspired.

On the other hand, he says he believes the Bible IS inspired.  This is shown clearly in 2 Timothy 3:16-17.…

“All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:  

That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”

Now, let’s talk “logic”….According to what we just read in DW’s article, we can arrive at some conclusions, based on his own words….

To go against the Slave, is to go against Jehovah.  But the Slave can be wrong, is uninspired, and may have to change their teachings at any given time.

The Bible is inspired, and is never wrong, and never changes, but if we see it conflict with the Slave, then we go with the Slave because this is how Jehovah set things up.

MEANING….Jehovah wants us to follow an UNINSPIRED Slave, if it conflicts with the INSPIRED Word of God, because if we go with the Bible instead, we are proudly putting our understanding over the Slave’s, and this is going against God….EVEN if we are right, and the Slave’s teaching is wrong.

Folks, this is beyond hogwash.  This is a doctrine of demons.  There is nothing anywhere in the Scriptures, where we are ever told to go against the Scriptures.  We are to obey the laws of the land….UNTIL those laws violate Scripture.  A wife is to submit to her husband….UNTIL she is asked to violate Scripture.  We obey those who have spiritual authority over us….UNTIL they begin teaching what is unscriptural, at which point we REMOVE ourselves from their authority.  

And this is “logic”??  We obey an uninspired Slave who’s teachings may not even be Scriptural, rather than what is plainly written in Scripture?

Well, that sure explains a lot of what we see, doesn’t it?  It explains the lying and slander….In their mind, the Bible’s clear statements about lying, can be laid aside, because its done in defense of the “Slave”.  So, that makes it okay.

DW says….“To be unbiblical is to go against this arrangement God has put in place. Just like christendom do.”

REPLY:  No, to be unbiblical, is to go against the Bible.  Now, THAT is logic and common sense.  Being unbiblical is not going against the ever-changing doctrines of men.  Furthermore, the very fact this has happened so many times in history (even resulting in suffering and death for the followers), is actually LOGICAL evidence that this is NOT the “arrangement God has put in place”.

DW writes….“Yes of course if we go against our employers authority we face the consequences or at school or disrespect someones property we face the consequences.”

Poor analogy.  We submit to our employer, so far as what he is asking us to do on his time, and for which he is paying us for.  But that employer’s authority only extends so far.  If my employer asks me to do something UNSCRIPTURAL, then I had rather face his consequences, than to face the consequences of disobeying God’s Word.

Same with respecting someone’s property.  True, I have no right to go and knock someone’s door down.  However, if I see that man abduct a child and drag that child into his home to possibly harm, violate, or kill the child, then I’m disrespecting the property, and I’m going to knock down the door.  

I can’t believe DW would use such an argument.  And furthermore, its amusing that Christaras finds it “logical”.  I don’t.  I believe the Bible is the final authority on anything….Not my church, my pastor, me, and certainly not the “Slave” in New York.

Well, this has already gotten much longer than I had planned, and I am nowhere near done.  And that, leads me to one final point in this writing….Honesty.

Let’s look at this “logically”, which DW and his friends fail to do.  My premise is, that lying is ALWAYS wrong.  Their premise is, that it is acceptable in this forum, when dealing with me and others who agree with me.  It is fine to lie, make things up, post personal slander, make false claims about that person’s character, and the list goes on.

But let’s logically look at this verse….Revelation 21:8.…

“But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”

Now, let’s just look at this verse “logically”.  DW’s first reaction to this verse, would be to say “Well, let’s figure out why the Lake of Fire” is not literal” .  But let’s look at it from a different angle….Let’s look at what GETS US into the Lake of Fire.

Now, we can argue all day about what the Lake of Fire is….A literal place of torment, as I believe, and as the Bible says….OR, a symbol of everlasting annhilation.  But let’s lay aside that point for a moment, and look at it “logically”.  

Whichever understanding is correct, we ALL agree that the Lake of Fire is something bad and not desirable.  Regardless of whether you see it as a literal place of torment, or a symbol of destruction.  So, let’s LOGICALLY see what sorts of acts send us there, and try to avoid those.  

We know it isn’t a nice place/state, because of who goes there….liars, occultists, idolaters, whoremongers, etc”.  So, this is obviously a place to be avoided.  So, how do we do that?

Well, one of the things listed that will place you in the Lake of Fire, is being a liar.  In fact, it says “ALL liars” .  Let’s be logical here…”ALL” means everybody, no exceptions.  It doesn’t mean that SOME liars will get a pass, because they are lying about someone who is perceived as an apostate or enemy of God, or in defense of the Organization.  No, this exception is not made.  It says ALL liars.  

So logically, we see from this verse , that all liars are bound for the Lake of Fire.  

Now, for the sake of argument,  let’s just say for a moment that the WT IS the “truth”, and is “God’s Organization”.  How does that help DW and others like him?  It doesn’t.  Rather, it condemns them.  The Bible says that ALL liars will go to the Lake of Fire, and the Watchtower Society also teaches that lying is wrong.

Now, DW has told us to follow the Slave, but he himself is not doing this.  He lies on this board, and he KNOWS he lies.  He will not dare come on here and deny that he has lied, and has also supported Rando in lying.  He will not even attempt to deny that, if he has any brain at all.  He knows it, I know it, and other readers know it.

So, where does this “LOGICALLY” leave him?  In a lot of trouble, that’s where.  

Here is what the WT itself has to say about speaking falsehood, and speaking truth….

“"ACCURACY OF STATEMENT Jehovah’s witnesses are an organization of truth. We should want to speak the truth and be absolutely accurate in every detail at all times. This should be so not only as regards doctrine but also in our quotations, what we say about others or how we represent them..." (Theocratic Ministry School Guidebook, 1971, p. 110, bold in original).”

Here, his own religion tells him that he is supposed to be truthful in not only what he SAYS about others, but also how he REPRESENTS them.  Yet, he feels free to invent quotes that he knows were never made, and lie about those whom he hates.

“and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death”

Now, let’s see DW dispute the logic here.  He spent all that time writing about how we are supposed to follow the Slave, so as to not be disobedient to Jehovah God.  

But I guess the question here, is….Why aren’t YOU following the Slave in this regard, DW?  Or all of the Scriptures which clearly and LOGICALLY condemn your actions in this forum?

Proverbs 12:22-  “Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.”

Proverbs 13:5-  “A righteous man hateth lying: but a wicked man is loathsome, and cometh to shame.”

Rev. 21:27-  “And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.”

Rev. 22:15-  “For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”

Now, from these verses, I have LOGICALLY concluded that we are not to lie…for ANY reason.  

DW, show my logic wrong here, and show us all why you do indeed have that right, and why you are above the Slave and the Scriptures in this regard.  

By all means, the floor is yours…..  

Jehovah`s Witness

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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