Jehovah`s Witness/So, "Joseph" Wants To Start Trouble With An Honest JW??
After reading the attempt by “Joseph” to cause strife in the forum, and since my name was once again brought into his attempt, then I have decided to weigh in with some observations of my own. Its one thing to falsely attack me, because I expect it. But to falsely attack a person who has done nothing to open himself up for it, except for speaking the truth and calling for people to act like Christians, and who wants nothing to do with any arguments that take place in this forum, is simply hitting below the belt. It’s a cowardly move, and a cheap shot, and I am convinced it is motivated by revenge for Mr. Hepburn speaking out.
To be labeled as NOT being a “full fledged JW”, for merely refusing to join in the lying and slander, makes me wonder what “Joseph” thinks a full-fledged JW really is. Perhaps he would care to elaborate. Is he saying that a real JW, would gladly participate in false statements against others? Is he saying that a full-fledged JW would just “look the other way”, when his fellow Witnesses are making a mockery of the religion that he joined this forum to defend, because hey, “We’re supposed to be on the same team here”
? Is that what “Joseph” thinks a full-fledged JW should do?
Now, I’m going to mention something else that really bugs me, and I’m addressing this part to you, Mr. Hepburn. I told you in a private writing the other day, what I believe is going on with this “Joseph” character. And I think that the more he writes, the more I am convinced that what I told you, was correct. And the fact that someone is writing you in private and asking you to leave the forum, only confirms it. You spoke out for what is right, and now you have become a target for revenge. Apparently these “people” think they are somehow in authority over this forum? At any rate, I dare say that ONE person is behind it, and we both know who I’m referring to.
But here is what really bugs me. Mr. Hepburn, you stated something that annoys you, when you said….
“I must apologise for being careless in my comments so that you misunderstood what I had written. I always get annoyed at myself when I do not word things clearly enough for people to understand what I had written."
What “annoys” me, is that you feel the need to apologize and get annoyed with yourself for not making something clear enough for “Joseph” to understand and being “careless in your comments”, when there was NOTHING “careless” about your comments, and they weren’t hard to understand in the least. No, I am not “annoyed” AT you, but I am bothered by the fact that you feel this is your fault for not being clear. It is NOT your fault. Ms. T understood what you were saying, I understood it, and I am pretty sure everybody else did, as well. This “Joseph” has some axe to grind with you, and some ulterior motive. That much is certain. Just because he wants to twist your statement that was easy to understand, is not a reflection on you, Mr. Hepburn. It is a reflection on him.
It is clear to ANY thinking person, that you were not denying there is a “Critics” category, but that you were speaking, in context, of IF this forum were set up BY JWs, then we non-Witnesses would have no right to be here, but that since it is a public forum, we do have that right. The subject of whether there was a “Critics” category, was not even under discussion in that comment of yours.
I quote Mr. Hepburn’s initial comment….“that is where some JWs have gone wrong. Perhaps they feel this IS a site set up by JWs for JWs. IF that was the case then there would be no place her for non JWs. However, that is not the case. It seems that because I defend the right of non JWs to be here on this very public non WT sanctioned site, I have been accused of supporting the non JWs in their teachings.”
What is so hard to understand here? Nobody was even talking about the “Critics” category, when that statement was made. He was simply saying that this site, ALLEXPERTS, is not a site set up by JWs, and because it’s a public site, then we all have the right to be here, whereas we would not have that privilege, if this WERE a JW site.
And he is exactly right, by the way.
Hey, you don’t owe us any apologies for any “indiscretion”. The people here who are NOT apologizing, are the ones who SHOULD be. You don’t owe us one, Mr. Hepburn. If anyone reading this forum is ever converted to the JW religion because of this forum, it will be because of people like you. If anyone is ever repulsed by it, then it will be because of people like them.
Now, let me say something about Mr. Hepburn’s involvement and removal from the “Critics” category. Just as he felt he had the right to be over there to present a “balancing” view and correct any misrepresentations of JW teaching that might occur, we have the same right to be here, to present a “balancing” view and correct the many misunderstandings of our teachings, that occur on a regular basis.
And I, for one, agree with Mr. Hepburn that Allexperts policy is inconsistent. He SHOULD be allowed to be there, and I do not believe that his removal was due to anyone complaining, although there is no way that I can know that for sure. I simply don’t believe Mr. Hepburn has ever conducted himself in a manner, to arouse complaints from any fair-minded people. It seems he is only the target of some of his own immature, and vengeful brethren, who don’t like the fact that he spoke out for what is right and proper conduct, and what is not. I think most honest and decent people such as Richard, Ben, myself, and any other non-Witness here, appreciate Mr. Hepburn’s overall conduct and politeness. We do vehemently disagree with some of the things he believes, but that does not mean we cannot respect him as a person, for the way he carries himself. Contrary to popular distortions, we do not hate Jehovah’s Witnesses, and have no animosity or axe to grind with them as human beings.
But yes, I believe Allexperts was wrong for removing him, and he should be allowed to be there, to present an alternate opinion, because this is allowed in almost every other category on Allexperts….JW, Mormon, Catholic, Adventist, etc. I have no idea what Allexperts was thinking, and I think they are not being consistent.
That being said, there are some observations I have made about this “Joseph” person, that simply don’t add up.
I said previously that I was going to post something, but held off for the time being, out of respect for Mr. Hepburn's public request that his Open Letter, not be a springboard for further debate. But today, I see this trouble-maker who calls himself "Joseph", doing his best to continue to lie to this forum, so I am going to go ahead and post some comments to him. While I have respect for Mr. Hepburn's request, and understand it is not his nature to want to have or cause confrontation, enough is enough with the trouble-makers like "Joseph". I don't like seeing peaceful people being singled out for attack and lied about, regardless of my religious differences with them.
I see where "Joseph" is now writing Rando, with some of the most absurd comments that I have ever seen. Such as....
"I am having a serious disagreement with Mr Hepburn and he keeps twisting my words."
Actually, Mr. Hepburn QUOTED your words, which you chose to leave out. We have all seen that it was you doing the twisting, Mr. "Joseph".
"Then, Mr Hepburn writes an open letter poking at the flames to stir me up."
Yeah, he's "poking at the flames", about like I'm a "crowd rouser". The only one "poking at flames" and trying to stir up the crowd, is this character going by the name of "Joseph". And for what motive? Revenge, perhaps?
I believe the "flame poking", was done in your writing to Ms. T, "Joseph". And in your writing to several experts, trying to get trouble started on this forum.
"Mr Hepburn was the ONE who withheld he was a on the Critic Section not ME! I found out by doing an allexperts search myself!"
This is ridiculous! He has "withheld" no such thing. I knew that Mr. Hepburn was on the Critics section, and so does everyone else that has followed this forum for several years. He has made public mention of it several times. Plus, his name was right there in the list for anyone to see, when he was there. This is absurd.
The fact is, it has been several years since he was in that forum, so why would he STILL be making regular mention of it now? Is "Joseph" suggesting that Mr. Hepburn should put in an answer at least once a month, a statement to the effect of..."By the way, folks, I defended my religion in the Critics category up until 7 years ago"
Give me a break!
So, we have yet another trouble-maker on Allexperts, who is going by the name of "Joseph". Doing his best to start trouble and attack a fellow JW, and then complaining that HIS words are being twisted, and that Mr. Hepburn is after him. Like anybody here really thinks Mr. Hepburn wants to attack anybody.
Now, all of the above comments are additions to my original writing, after reading Rando writing, er I mean, "Joseph" writing to Rando and pouting to him about Mr. Hepburn's "mean" actions.
Now, my original thoughts that I had held off posting until now....
At the beginning of his writing to Ms. T, “Joseph” says this….
“I think honesty is an important component of being a Christan.”
Yes, it sure is. In fact, let’s just go a step further….If you’re not honest in the way you live your life and the words you speak, whether its about others or their beliefs, then you are not even a Christian in the first place.
That is why “Joseph’s” actions are so puzzling. He speaks of honesty, yet Mr. Hepburn, a man who detests having to get into confrontations, was forced into writing an “open letter” to “Joseph”, because of “Joseph’s” many distortions. This includes writing to Ms. T, and omitting key parts of the discussion, which after being printed by Mr. Hepburn, certainly put everything into a very different light. It seems “Joseph” was not being up front with the readers, about what really transpired.
He speaks of honesty being a mark of a Christian, but then proceeds to attack the one JW here who gets a lot of questions, but who is actually honest. The one JW who was HONEST enough to acknowledge that the conduct of 3 other Witnesses, was not what it should be. And “Joseph” aligns himself with the ones whose entire presence here, reeks of dishonesty and unchristian conduct. How could that be? If “Joseph” believes in complete honesty, then why is he claiming that Mr. Hepburn is not a “full fledged JW” , instead of saying that to the ones who print obvious lies? Why are they viewed as real JWs, but Mr. Hepburn is not?
Something is just not adding up there.
Mr. Hepburn has never said one thing that was in contrast to JW teaching, as far as I can remember. He has always tried to provide solid answers for their side. To say that his answers do not contain “much substance”, is laughable, as his answers contain more “substance” than any 15 answers from these others. And that is coming from a guy who disagrees with Mr. Hepburn’s beliefs on major doctrines. But as for whose answers contain “substance”, that one isn’t even close.
But maybe “Joseph” views “substance”, as personal attacks against others. Maybe he thinks statements about people drinking blood, and calling the Holy Spirit a liar, and falsely accusing them of things they don’t even believe, are what constitutes “substance”.
If that’s the case, then I agree…Mr. Hepburn does not stoop to that kind of “substance”. But if a person wants a defense of what the Watchtower Society really teaches, and their reasons for believing it, then Mr. Hepburn is the best one here.
And THAT, Mr. “Joseph”, is why Richard and myself recommend him. Not as you stated….
“I see why derrick and richard recommend Brenton Hepburn”
No “Joseph”, you do not. Not even close. We recommend him, because contrary to what you think, we do not hate JWs nor do we desire a fight with them. We want people who come here to have the right to get BOTH sides of the issue, and be able to weigh the evidence for themselves, and we think that a real JW has as much right to answer questions here, as we do.
But we also believe that any person on EITHER side, should be honest, and respectful of their questioners, and see to it that the questioners get the facts of the matter.
Mr. Hepburn does that. Rando, Eddie, and Ms. T, do not. Its just that simple. THAT is why we recommend him. Not because he is “on our side”. He is not. Let’s just make that point clear. He, in no way, endorses or agrees with what we believe. He’s never made any pretense that he does. In fact, he believes the very same thing the dishonest Witnesses here believe on doctrine. He just doesn’t lie and attack others, to defend it. They do. That is why he is the better choice.
I believe there are other good choices here, too. I have never seen Abdijah, Carol, or Elbert, be rude in their approach either. I have never seen them spread lies. Will they now become your next target, “Joseph”? Will they too, be subjected to your accusations that they must not be real JWs, because I recommend them, due to their exemplary conduct?
Funny thing….If you listen to Rando, Eddie, or Ms. T, you will be told that we “hate” Jehovah’s Witnesses. You will be told that we “oppose anyone who defends Witness teachings”, and that we “attack” them for doing it.
Yeah? Is that really true? Then why is it, that not one of the GOOD Witnesses that I listed above, will tell you that they have ever had a confrontation with the non-Witnesses?
See, that’s the thing. Mr. Hepburn has been targeted for revenge, and of this, I have no doubt. Why? Because he was HONEST enough to point out that this forum would be a more peaceable place, if Rando would leave. No, he didn’t name Rando, but everyone (including Rando), knows who was being referred to. “Joseph”, are you Rando? Or just a friend of Rando?
And “Joseph” thinks that honesty is an important component of being a Christian? Then why the attempt to start trouble in the first place? He himself said there was a time of “peace” in the forum. What kind of honest person, during a time of “peace”, writes to 6 different experts, just trying to get something stirred up?
What is interesting, is that “Joseph” tries to claim that its “peaceful” when I’m gone. Funny, I was gone all of last week, and it was pretty much the same old stuff. Even when I’m gone, they post lies and attacks. Yet, Mr. Hepburn correctly identified the problem here. And he was correct. If Rando was not in this forum, then most of the strife would cease.
And I’ll say what Mr. Hepburn did not say….if Eddie and Ms. T followed Rando out, then ALL of it would cease. There would be no arguing, lying, falsely accusing, or slandering each other. There would be disagreement on doctrine, but everyone would be conducting themselves in a respectable manner.
And by the way, that is Scriptural, “Joseph”. Have you ever read this passage?
Proverbs 26:20- “Where no wood is, there the fire goeth out: so where there is no talebearer, the strife ceaseth.”
Notice that, “Joseph”? When a “talebearer” is no longer around, then strife ceases. There are some “talebearers” in this forum….ones who post falsehood about others, contrary to the Word of God. But they are not Brenton Hepburn, myself, or Richard. Therefore, we are not the ones who keep the trouble started. Read your Bible, “Joseph.” The problem here, is pretty plain.
Some more relevant passages to consider….
Proverbs 26:21- “As coals are to burning coals, and wood to fire; so is a contentious man to kindle strife.”
Proverbs 26:24-26- “He that hateth dissembleth with his lips, and layeth up deceit within him;
When he speaketh fair, believe him not: for there are seven abominations in his heart.
Whose hatred is covered by deceit, his wickedness shall be shewed before the whole congregation.”
Proverbs 22:10- “Cast out the scorner, and contention shall go out; yea, strife and reproach shall cease.”
Proverbs 20:3- “It is an honour for a man to cease from strife: but every fool will be meddling.”
And finally, this one, “Joseph”…..
Proverbs 15:18- “A wrathful man stirreth up strife: but he that is slow to anger appeaseth strife.”
Really now, “Joseph”, who do the above verses, especially the last one, remind you of? Who is really causing strife here, Mr. Hepburn, or Rando and his sidekicks? Who is the one that is “slow to anger” and wants to avoid “strife”….Rando and his sidekicks, or Mr. Hepburn? I think the answer to that, is obvious to ANY regular reader.
Its really interesting to me, that Mr. Hepburn’s conduct is BY FAR more in harmony with the above Scriptures, yet he is the one whom you have decided is “not a full-fledged JW”. Very interesting, indeed. Are you saying the less in harmony one is with the Scriptures which speak of avoiding strife, then the more they are likely to be a JW? Is that what you’re implying? Surely not!
You know, the way you took portions of Mr. Hepburn’s words to you, while omitting other parts, and thereby forcing his hand to have to address you (which he did not even want to do), does not speak very well of your motives, nor your commitment to “honesty being a component of a Christian.”
And in closing, I will say one more thing to you. If you REALLY believe that “honesty is an important component of being a Christian”
, then you would go back and change the dishonest ratings that you gave both Mr. Hepburn and myself. You don’t have to like a person, nor their answer, to give an honest rating. When you low rate them for pure spite, as you did, then there is nothing “honest” about that. Neither of us were impolite to you. He was very polite, and I merely asked you to clarify what you were referring to, before I answered. Neither of us deserved the rating you gave, and you were not being honest in the least.
Talk to us about honesty, when you are willing to do the right thing yourself. Kind of makes me wonder if YOU are a JW, “Joseph”. I have no doubts about Mr. Hepburn. Its you, I wonder about.