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Jehovah`s Witness/Encounters with my two jw coworkers continued...

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Hello once again my friend Derrick.

I'd like to share some experiences I recently had with my jw co workers that I thought your readers might relate to.

Awhile ago I asked jw A if he could get me a copy of their publication "Reasoning with the Scriptures". He refused and wouldn't give any reason why. This peaked my curiosity and I told him if it was such a secret I could always purchase it on Amazon. On his last day at work he presented me with the copy. Hmmmm.

This left me with only one jw to witness to out of the original three. A few months back I asked to read John 1:3. I asked him if he could explain this verse to me, particularly in regards to Col. 1:15 with regards to creation. He looked at it and said he would have to review it and read some other verses to understand it. A few months passed before I worked with him again so I asked him again when I saw him. Still no answer. It seems to me a very simple verse to understand. We were able to talk at length about things and he decided to tell me about how the doctrine of the Trinity was not found in the bible and how it was given to me from the church. That I didn't arrive at this conclusion on my own. I asked him about how he discovered the doctrine of no blood transfusions. He said he found out about it on the internet by himself by doing research. Really? You came to this knowledge of your own? After a cross examination he finally admitted it was given to him by the jws. I said to this and other responses he gave me, why don't you just give me the best and most direct answer first? You see, in his mind he wasn't lying and technically he wasn't. He did do the research on it by himself, but only after the doctrine was presented to him. So the way I interpreted it was that he was purposely being misleading. I have read how jws are taught that they reach these conclusions on their own. I brought up the fact that he stated that he was in jail in the Ukraine for not serving the required two years military service. This was his answer to how the jws are persecuted. I pointed out that he never was in jail and he was given alternate civil service. He then went on to twist the meaning of what jail was, how it was "taking away his freedom". I had to give him a lecture on how my knowledge of the English language is far superior than his and how I find it condescending that he would think that I would need a tutorial on meanings of words.  I think we both know what jail or prison is. I see this a lot here with all the twisting of meanings of words.

On another note I had to laugh when a questioner asked Sister T a question about 1914 and if she could show the answer using the Bible only. She said of course, that's the only way I know how, then when on to copy what the Watchtower had to say. I guess as long as you include some scriptures its not your interpretation.

That's all for now. Later I'm going to ask about their 1914 doctrine.

Have a blessed day and God bless!
Kevin.

Answer
Good evening, Kevin.  I hope you are doing well.

Man, its good to hear from you!  Actually, its good to hear from anybody....lol.  This is, by far, the quietest the forum has ever been in my years of being here.  It was getting to the point that I was wondering if something was keeping questions from reaching my inbox, but it seems to be quiet with all of the experts, as far as OUTSIDE questions coming in.

Maybe that's for the best....things were getting very heated there for awhile, and then it suddenly seemed to just die down.  

Actually, I have had one Private question since July, and the last public one in July that I received, was from you.  

Now, to start with, I want to make sure I understood something correctly.  Are you saying that this JW that you have had so many discussions with (JW "a"), no longer works for/with you?  I know you have had some very interesting conversations with him.  

"This left me with only one jw to witness to out of the original three. A few months back I asked to read John 1:3. I asked him if he could explain this verse to me, particularly in regards to Col. 1:15 with regards to creation. He looked at it and said he would have to review it and read some other verses to understand it. A few months passed before I worked with him again so I asked him again when I saw him. Still no answer. It seems to me a very simple verse to understand."

Yes, it is a very simple verse to read and understand.  This passage clearly reveals the Word, Jesus, as the Creator of ALL things.  And then as if that weren't enough, it reiterates the point even more emphatically, by stating...."without him was not any thing made that was made."

I believe that the first 3 verses of John's Gospel, are a powerful statement regarding the deity and nature of Jesus Christ, and are perfectly in harmony with the Trinity.  Notice that verse 1 states that the Word was IN the beginning (eternal nature), He was WITH God (showing the plurality of Persons...The Father, and the Holy Spirit), and that the Word, by nature, WAS GOD.  He was in the beginning with the Father, and is by nature, God Himself.  This is perfectly in harmony with the teaching of the Trinity.

And as you pointed out, when compared alongside Colossians 1:15-16, it is clear that Jesus is the Creator, and not a mere creation.

You said...."I asked him about how he discovered the doctrine of no blood transfusions. He said he found out about it on the internet by himself by doing research. Really? You came to this knowledge of your own? After a cross examination he finally admitted it was given to him by the jws. I said to this and other responses he gave me, why don't you just give me the best and most direct answer first? You see, in his mind he wasn't lying and technically he wasn't. He did do the research on it by himself, but only after the doctrine was presented to him."

The point here being....that the doctrine had to be put into his mind by someone else, and he would never have arrived at it in a million years, simply by reading the Bible on his own.  I completely agree with that statement.  He only researched it AFTER it was given to him as a Bible "truth".  

I think there are some other beliefs in their teaching as well, that on their own, they would never get from the Bible...that celebrating a birthday (either Christ's, or an individual's) is a sin, that the Bible forbids voting, etc.  Honestly, I could list several.  These are things that are taught to the individual, and after accepting the teaching as true, they "research" it in order to be able to defend it.

I think at the heart of all that, is the acceptance of the WT's teachings as they are printed in the publications, as coming straight from God, and the acceptance of the WT Organization, as being "Jehovah's Organization", and His "sole channel of communication".  When they approach it with that underlying assumption already in place, then its easier to accept any and all teachings that the Organization may espouse.  

Personally, I have always believed that an Organization, a preacher, or ANY doctrine, should be tested by the Scripture, to determine if it lines up.  If it doesn't, it should be rejected as not being of God.  I believe an Organization being accepted as from God, is dependent on whether or not their teachings stand up to the scrutiny of being examined in the light of God's Word. But it seems that some people already have an assumption in place, that the group they belong to IS of God, and therefore, they willingly accept anything that comes down the line, as being from God.  For the simple reason, that to do any less, is tantamount to question Jehovah God Himself.

That is truly tragic.

You said..."I brought up the fact that he stated that he was in jail in the Ukraine for not serving the required two years military service. This was his answer to how the jws are persecuted. I pointed out that he never was in jail and he was given alternate civil service. He then went on to twist the meaning of what jail was, how it was "taking away his freedom". I had to give him a lecture on how my knowledge of the English language is far superior than his and how I find it condescending that he would think that I would need a tutorial on meanings of words. I think we both know what jail or prison is. I see this a lot here with all the twisting of meanings of words."

I had to smile at this one.  I remember you telling me this before, I believe.  Its sort of funny how he wants to reinterpret something so simple as being in jail, rather that just admit that he stretched the truth to begin with.  I have encountered people like that myself, and you have to wonder what has to have happened in their minds, for them to be able to convince themselves they are not outright lying.  I mean, like you said...we all know what jail is.  Either he was, or he wasn't.  If he wasn't, he wasn't being honest for saying he was.  

Man, I'll tell you what....If everyone could re-define "being in jail" the way he did, then I guess a person in an unhappy marriage could say they have been in jail, or a teenager who is grounded for a month from going out with friends, could just say "I went to jail for a month".  

Wow...Just wow.

I remember reading the answer you mentioned about 1914, and I had to go back and read it again this evening, as it had been a little while.  I also remember that it hit me the exact way it did you, the first time I read it.  

But again...I seriously doubt the 1914 teaching of Christ's "invisible presence", is something they would come up with by simply reading the Bible alone, either.  That's another one you have to have suggested and explained to you, and again, if you already have the underlying assumption in place that the WT is God's mouthpiece, then you will simply accept it...even if you can't explain it yourself.  

Well, I'm going to get off here for now.  Man, it was great hearing from you again.  This board has been pretty much dead here lately.  Again, I am glad for that in a way, but I've also missed hearing from my friends.  I have had some time to get things done, and the strife that has been here in the past, was really sad.  I hope things have cooled off, and every expert can do what they are supposed to do...answer the questions given to them.

Feel free to write anytime.  I won't be around much next week, as my youngest son is graduating Basic Training in Missouri next week, and we will be attending that.  This is the second son to graduate Basic, in just over a year.  Well, take care Brother, and God bless.

Derrick  

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Derrick Holland

Expertise

I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

Experience

29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

Organizations
I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

Education/Credentials
High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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