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Jehovah`s Witness/Eddie's Dishonest Twisting of Baptist Teaching on Hell

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Question
Eddie seems to be unable to admit error, even when its obvious.  He has an extreme pride problem.  

Furthermore, Eddie whines constantly about his WT teachings "being misrepresented", even when they aren't, and the problem lies with Eddie's poor reading comprehension skills, rather than anything that was actually said.  But Eddie feels perfectly free to misrepresent what others teach.  

So, this is in response to Eddie's ridiculous claim that I, as a Baptist, teach that "only bad people go to Hell" , and his long-winded, but extremely feeble, attempt to justify his false statement.

Below, is the same question that I am sending to him as a follow up.  I am posting it here, because I want the follow up to be seen today, and I don't want my question being at the mercy of Eddie's "wait several days before answering the question, so it appears further down in the forum and hopefully won't get read by as many people", game.

At any rate, the below follow up question to Eddie, will prove beyond all doubt, that he has no business talking about what anyone else believes.  His distortions on such matters as the Trinity, worshipping crosses, and now Hell, are well documented.

Answer
This is a follow up response, on the issue of whether or not Eddie correctly stated Baptist teaching, when he claims that ““Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell.”

I will both send this as a follow up question to Eddie, but am also posting it here under my profile.  Reason being, I really would like the follow up to post today, and not be at the mercy of Eddie’s “waiting game”, that he likes to play with the tough questions.

Now, let’s deal with some of Mr. Garcia’s comments….

In response to my asking you about which Baptist groups teach that “only bad people go to Hell”, Eddie, you claimed….

ED:  “ What a strange question to ask. Especially from someone like you, by someone who seem to "know it all". Strange indeed, it is as if the Baptist doctrine of Hell/Hellfire is a long held secret and only but a few knew about it.”

“What? Why is this "news to you" ? Do you really and honestly want us to believe that you're too IGNORANT to what the "Baptist Faith" says about Hell fire?

And how could this be "news to you" if you're a Baptist? I mean Baptists are known to be the best preachers in "town" when it comes to Hell….So to say this is "news to me" is very suspicious, if not an outright lie. Especially knowing the fact that you said this:

"Hell IS a just punishment for those who mock and reject the Gospel of Jesus Christ."


Wow Eddie, how long did your entire “response” take you to type?  I am really sorry that you wasted all of that valuable time trying to prove that the Baptists really do teach Hell, because that was never the question.  But dodging questions seems to be your favorite pastime.

At any rate, I think the question was really simple.  It was not about whether we believe in Hell….It was about WHO we teach goes there.  Once again, you have proven to the board that your reading comprehension skills simply do not qualify you to answer questions about the Bible, or religion in general.  

You literally get it wrong every single time.

The question was, again….“So, my question….Would you mind telling me which “Baptist” groups teach that only bad people go to Hell, and that good people go to Heaven?”

What was so difficult to understand about that question?  But of course, we constantly see people pointing out that you don’t answer their questions, and this case is no exception.  You were asked a simple question, and you immediately started ranting about what was not even asked.  

I don’t see any question here, about whether or not Baptists teach there is a Hell.  I see a question about WHO Baptists teach, go to Hell.  You sure wasted a lot of time for nothing, with that response.


You said this….

ED:  “But since the Baptist organization, sect or religion (if you prefer) is composed of many independent denominations, it's going to take time to cover all of them.”

Let me just save you the time….There aren’t any who teach that “only bad people go to Hell”

In fact, I have had to state for you guys about 10 times now, that I am not a Southern Baptist.  However, for this particular discussion, that is irrelevant, because the teaching of who goes to Hell, would be the same for ALL Bible-believing Baptist groups.  And boy, did you ever bungle it!

But here was the kicker…  When I asked you, Eddie, if you knew enough about Baptist doctrine to be commenting on it, you made this “intelligent“ reply….

ED:  “Why yes. Of course I do. Come on Mr. Holland, for an "intelligent man" like you, such question is somewhat silly, especially in the age of internet / Google.”

Well yeah, we all know that if something is on the internet, it must be true.  Then you turn right around and tell another question about “apostate lies”, which came from the internet…lol.  

But fact is, Rando and Eddie regularly find things on the internet, written by people who are as dense as they are, and don’t know what they’re talking about.  Such an example is a web site that Rando uses regularly to mock Baptists, but also claims that the Assemblies of God teach the doctrine of eternal security….When in fact, they do not. Just “Google” it, Eddie.

And let’s not forget, Eddie, that you are the same guy who didn’t even know HIS OWN religion’s teaching about 1874, until I hammered you on it (which you admitted in a private response).…But you know our teaching about salvation?  Yeah, sure you do.  

Tell us more about internet sites and Google, Eddie….  

Actually though, Eddie, you didn’t give us anything from the internet, that validated this claim that Baptists teach that “only bad people go to Hell”.  Because that isn’t what Baptists teach.  And I am quite certain that you will find nothing from any Baptist site on the internet, that would validate this ridiculous claim.  

Now Eddie, as for my question of whether you know Baptist teaching, you sort of walked into that one.  You claim that you do.  But if you do, then this makes you a liar, and not just someone who is mistaken.  

Now, everyone should keep in mind, this is the same clown who told this board that Baptists believe in worshipping crosses, as well.  He even snuck over there to the Baptist forum and asked 2 Baptist preachers about it, hoping they would validate his false claim, and he could come back here and say “You see??  I told you so!!” .  Of course, when those Baptist preachers told him the exact same thing I told him…that we do not…then Eddie somehow “forgot” to mention that little trip to the Baptist forum.  But he still kept telling the lie that we worship crosses, nonetheless.

Isn’t that true, Eddie?

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/2013/8/cross-6.htm

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Baptists-954/2013/8/praying-kneeling-corss.htm

And you’re the guy who claims to “know” Baptist teaching…lol..

Actually though, such an admission puts you in a bad predicament…If you truly DO KNOW what Baptists teach, then why lie and misstate the teaching on Hell?  Why make a comment such as “Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell.”

There are only 2 options here….

1.  You do not know Baptist doctrine  

In that case, you are simply mistaken in your comment, and you have no business posting ANYTHING about what you “already know” Baptists teach, because you don‘t.

2.  You do know Baptist doctrine

In this case, this makes you a liar, for stating that Baptists worship crosses, and for stating that Baptists believe that “only bad people go to Hell”

Which is it, Eddie?  Are you ignorant, or dishonest?

Because let me just break it to you….Baptists do not teach that “only bad people go to Hell”.  Baptist teach that you can be a “good” person by this world’s standards, be moral, honest, upright, and generous….and STILL go to Hell, if you do not come to faith in Jesus Christ.  

In fact, let me give you an example, as I am sure there are thousands more just like it.  I will tell you about my best friend of about 16 years.  He is now the pastor of a Bible-believing Baptist Church, in the next county from me.  He came to the church I was pastoring  for the first time, at the beginning of 1998.  He came with his wife and sons, for several weeks, until February of that same year.  17 years ago, this past Sunday morning, he got up from his seat and came down to the front of the church and asked for prayer to receive Jesus Christ at the end of my message, along with his wife.  In fact, he just sent me a text Saturday evening, thanking me for preaching the Gospel to him.  He does this every year at this time.

But about him….He was one of the finest people you would ever want to meet, even before coming to Christ.  If you had a flat tire on the side of the road, he would stop and help you change it, or take you where you needed to go.  If you had a financial need, he would slip you the money and say “Pay me when you can” .  And if you didn’t, he would not mention it to you.   His wife personally told me that he had always been a fine husband and provider, and would even help her with her work around the house, after working all day himself.  All this before coming to Christ.  

Nothing about him, was “bad”.  Almost everybody liked him.  But he will be the first to tell you, that before that day in February of 1998, he was not a Christian, and was on his way to Hell.  Being “bad” had nothing to do with it…he had not been born again into the family of God, by trusting Jesus Christ as His Savior.

So, what a RIDICULOUS comment, to say “Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell.”  

Only an extremely ignorant, or extremely dishonest person, would make a statement like that.  Baptists teach nothing of the sort.  

In fact, it is WELL KNOWN, that Baptists teach that we are not saved by ANY good works of our own, but only on the merits of Jesus Christ.  

Ephesians 2:8-9- “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:  Not of works, lest any man should boast.”

Titus 3:5-6-  “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost: Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;”

So, it seems pretty clear that being “good” does not save anyone.  And that IS what “Eddies’ statement implies, when he says “Baptists teach that ONLY THE BAD go to Hell” .  This would mean that ALL GOOD people go to Heaven, if Hell is ONLY for the “BAD”.  

But according to the verses above, and ALSO ACCORDING TO BAPTIST TEACHING, even so-called “good” people can go to Hell.  

So, let’s be clear on something, Eddie….You false comment creates a number of problems.  

1.  First problem, is that as you well know, we teach that Jesus is Mediator for ALL people, so that they can come to God the Father, through faith in His shed blood.

But of course, if only bad people go to Hell, and we can go to Heaven by just being “good”….Then why would we need a Mediator in the first place?  

2.  Second problem….If Baptists believe that “only bad people go to Hell”, then what role do they believe the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ, plays in their salvation?  

Why did Jesus even have to die, but rather, why didn't God just tell us to "be good", and "stop being bad"?
 


3.  If we believe that “only bad people go to Hell”, then that means that all “good” people go to Heaven.  But if this is the case, then why would we also believe that we cannot be saved by any good works or merits of our own?

These are but only a few of the many problems created, by your false statement, Eddie.


Ed, you asked…“What are you up to Slick? I guess will have to see.”

Just keeping you in line, since you like to lie so much.  If you don’t like your belief being distorted (even when it isn’t), then you’re not going to distort ours, either.  You shouldn’t be lying to the public about others’ beliefs, just because you don’t agree with them.


And of major importance here, I was intrigued that you do not understand the difference between “good” and “righteous”, and “bad” and “unrighteous”.  Apparently to make a statement such as that, you have no knowledge of what the Bible says makes us “righteous” in the sight of God.  

That is another discussion we can have, IF YOU WOULD LIKE (Oh great, here comes another accusation of a “challenge”).

But seriously, quoting where the SBC said that the “righteous” go to Heaven, was the best you could do?  Baptist don’t believe that being “good”, makes you “righteous”.  I believe that has already been shown in some detail.  

However Ed, you did half-heartedly attempt to address that issue.  I  quote you….

ED:  “I need to be very clear about this. So please bear with me. The straightforward and simple to understand phrase: "bad people" that I used (in describing those who go to hell) are "the unrighteous" people. Hence when I said "bad people" I'm referring to those who are "unrighteous" in God's eyes. Am I clear on this Mr. Holland? I hope so.

If not please let me know so that I can further clarify it.OK?”

As you would say….You’re as ‘clear as mud”.  

And you confirm what I just said above….You actually think that “righteous” means “good”, and “unrighteous” means “bad”.  Wow…that’s simply amazing.

Do you just not know that even the most “good” people on earth, are “unrighteous” until cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ?  And that doesn’t make them “bad” people….it just means they have not been declared “righteous”, through the means that God has provided for making this happen. And if they die in that condition, although not necessarily “bad” people, they will still go to Hell.

Your comment completely ignores the fact that Baptists teach you can give to charity, visit the sick, be kind to animals, and help ladies across the street, and STILL not be a believer in Jesus Christ.  Even atheists can do those things, and can be “good” people, in that sense.  But they are still not declared “righteous”.

Again, this is why you HAVE NO BUSINESS talking about subjects you obviously know NOTHING about.

Baptists do not believe you can save yourself, by being a “good” person.  In fact, I will challenge, and YES I did say “challenge” this time, you to find one single statement from ANY Bible-believing Baptist web site ANWHERE on the internet, which states anything to the effect of….“You avoid Hell by being “good”, and you need to stop being “bad”.

What a ridiculous comment….“Baptists teach that only bad people go to Hell”

I was literally amazed that you would shoot your own argument out of the sky, by quoting THIS comment from a Baptist web page….

““RESOLVED, That out of our love for lost people and our deep desire that they will not suffer eternally in Hell, we implore Southern Baptists to proclaim faithfully the depth and gravity of sin against a holy God, the reality of Hell, and the salvation of sinners by God's grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone, to the glory of God alone,” read the statement.”

You do realize, don’t you, that in quoting this, you just destroyed your own argument, that “Baptists teach that only the bad people go to Hell?”

Or is this another example of your poor reading comprehension skills making you look ridiculous again?  If the “salvation of sinners is by God’s grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone”, then doesn’t that sort of eliminate us being saved by just “not being bad”?

Again…Think.  That’s what your brain is SUPPOSED to be for.

But again…thank you for spending so much of your response time, proving that Baptist believe in the existence of a literal Hell.  But tell us something we didn’t already know, and which was actually the question asked of you.

Now Eddie, as I said before…I think I am a little more in the know on Baptist teaching than you are, considering I have been a Baptist preacher for many years now.  I’m not sure why you want to argue this point.  You made a false statement, I called you on it again, but ONCE AGAIN…Your pride just doesn’t let you correct your error.  So instead, you waste all that time typing a reply that wasn’t even about the question asked, and you only made it worse, and warranted another follow-up to have to deal with.

Man, you never learn.

Oh, and I don’t think it was honest of you to slip in your reply, quotes from a NON-BAPTIST site that is critical of Baptists, and try to pass it off as a Baptist site, and a declaration of Baptist doctrine.  

http://www.netbiblestudy.net/baptist/

Followed by this comment of yours….“Can we say that those "not baptized" they are referring to here are considered "unrighteous" or "bad people"? I believe so because right after it, they said: "he does not really believe Jesus". Right? Of course I'm right, unless of course you want to parse their words. If so, that's a sign of a really really desperate man.”

What’s a sign of a “desperate man”, is one who takes an anti-Baptist site, and tries to quote from it like it’s a Baptist site.  Baptists do not teach that unbaptized people are necessarily “unrighteous”, nor do Baptists teach that we become “righteous” by being baptized.

So no, you’re not right….as usual.  You didn’t even have the sense, or the honesty, to realize you were reading a site that was not representing the Baptist position.


But honesty isn’t your strong point, anyway.


Now, let’s give some REAL quotes, from some REAL Baptist sites, that clearly show the ridiculous comment that you made…Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell.” , was completely false and inaccurate.

By the way Eddie, these quotes and sites that follow, are the same ones you rejected yesterday, because you didn’t want them to post.  So, I’m including them here.

http://www.baptistdistinctives.org/articles/salvation-by-grace-through-faith-alo

“Casual conversations, movies, television shows, comic cartoons all indicate that the popular concept of salvation seems to be this: When a person dies, God weighs the good deeds and the bad. If the good outweighs the bad, the person gets into heaven. If the bad outweighs the good, the person goes to hell. (Sometimes hell is not even in the picture.) In other words, human effort and work pave the road to either heaven or hell.

The Bible’s portrayal of salvation is entirely different. The Bible clearly teaches that all have sinned (Romans 3:23) and that the penalty for sin is eternal death. However, God by his grace has provided a way for sin to be forgiven, hell avoided and heaven gained. That way is faith in his Son, Jesus Christ (Romans 6:23).”


“Salvation, according to the Bible, is solely by grace and faith, not by human effort or works (Ephesians 2:8-9). While not denying the value of good works, throughout our history Baptists have proclaimed the truth that salvation is only by grace through faith.”

“Some denominations have included such things as baptism, church membership, good works or sacraments as necessary for salvation. Baptists have insisted that salvation comes only by faith in God’s grace gift of Jesus.”


Another site….


http://www.zionindependentbaptist.com/what-is-salvation.html

“Perhaps you are like most people today who say that no one can know for sure about Heaven. My friend, you can know if you're trusting in the right thing. You may be one who says…

"I'm a good person and deserve to go to Heaven, not Hell." While it is true that most people are "good people," the Bible describes man as God sees him, not how we or others view ourselves. Romans chapters 1-3 and 5:8-21, along with many other verses, show man as he really is in God's sight - every Man is a sinner in need of salvation!”

Now, I can provide many more, if need be. But I think these will suffice for now, to show that you don’t know what you’re talking about…..as usual.

So, tell us again….“Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell.”





ED:  “It should be more than enough to show that I'm telling the truth about the Baptist Faith.”

Actually, I think we just saw the opposite.  We saw yet another blunder and distortion from the computer keyboard of Eddie Garcia, who knows absolutely nothing of the subjects he presumes to speak about, because his comprehension skills are hovering right around “zero”.

Now, don’t you feel silly for making that “psychiatrist” remark, Ed??  Lol.


And you, once again…“Where did I "misrepresented" the Baptist Faith / Belief when I said this?

Now we already know according to Baptist belief, that "only bad people go STRAIGHT to Hell. They go there to be punished for their sins for all eternity. They are sent there to be burned alive forever and ever day in day out to pay for their sins.

Can you answer? I doubt it much.

Yep, I sure did.  I showed clearly where you completely distorted our teaching, which has nothing to do with being “bad”, or being “good”.  It has to do with being born again, through faith in Jesus Christ.  Surely you don’t want to imply that all non-believers are “bad” people, do you?  Neither do we.  But all non-believers are lost, and their unbelief will send them to Hell.  

This is far different than us saying that “all good people go to Heaven, and only bad people go to Hell”.


In the future, I would appreciate it you would kindly refrain from lying about, and distorting our teachings.  If you wish to discuss them, then state them accurately.  If not, I’ll be here to call you on it.


So again, I regret that you typed all of those “mounds and mounds of nonsense”, in an attempt to obfuscate and avoid the question.  

So, my questions again, are simply….

1. Which Baptist groups teach that "only bad people go to Hell", and provide documentation.

Now, in the hopes that you don’t misunderstand the question again, let me be as clear as I know how to be.  If you can’t grasp this, then I’m afraid there’s no hope for you.  So, here goes….

I am NOT asking you to prove that Baptists believe in Hell.  Save yourself 2 hours of typing, and grasp that simple fact.  I AM asking you to provide documentation from a Bible-believing Baptist site, that would state that we teach that “only bad people go to Hell”, which you did not do in your “mounds and mounds of nonsense”.


And my last question, since it has been proven yet again, that you did misrepresent our teaching….


2. Why do you complain about your beliefs being falsely “misrepresented”, but you think its okay for you to do it to others?


Now, let's see if you will finally understand a question, and then give a straight answer to it.  

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Derrick Holland

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I was raised in the religion known as Jehovah`s Witnesses for 13 years. Since becoming a born-again Christian, I have researched extensively this religion, especially their doctrines and their history. I can answer questions about their doctrines from the perspective of Biblical Christianity. To be clear: Jehovahs Witnesses is the religion of my upbringing, though I myself was never baptized into the religion, nor have I ever been considered as a Jehovahs Witness.

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29 years of Biblical research into the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith, and how they differ from the teachings of the Watchtower.

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I would advise each questioner to this forum, to carefully READ the profiles of the various volunteers. There are several such as myself, who are not practicing JWs, but will provide you with an accurate and honest answer, regarding JW teaching. If we don't know the answer, we will try to research and get it for you. There are also some excellent practicing JWs here, who also endeavor to give you a factual and honest answer, based on their point of view. I believe by getting both points of view, the questioner can weigh the evidence for themselves, and make an informed decision. Unfortunately, there are also 3 here who claim to be JWs, but do NOT give honest, or well-researched answers. They will tell you only what they want you to believe, and they often hide facts about the history of their religion, as well as print untruths about other people's beliefs. This is done in an attempt to deceive the unsuspecting reader. It can be easily seen who these 3 are, simply by reading the public posts and "answers" which they write. Their posts will normally be filled with personal attacks, and if you question them about some teaching or aspect of the Watchtower that makes them uncomfortable, they will often reject your question, question your motives for asking it, tell you that you have been reading "apostate" sites, or turn the conversation into an attack on another expert. These ones are better avoided, as there is nothing to be gained by way of positive discussion, as they are not interested in intelligent conversation, or honest dialogue. If after reading the forum, you still have any questions as to who they are, just ask me, and I will be happy to tell you. And I can also provide documentation of their willful dishonesty. One thing is for certain...in a forum where people from both sides claim to be "Christians", there should never be any willful lying. Such ones only create a distraction in the forum, and provide nothing of any real value.

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High School, some college. Studies of God's Word, the Bible, and how it compares to JW theology. I have found my own personal study and experiences to be far more valuable than any formal education or training. The Bible message is clear...Salvation is ONLY through and by the shed blood of Jesus Christ, and no religious organization has a thing to do with it. While attendance at a Bible-preaching, Bible-believing church is a must for spiritual growth and fellowship, no church can grant salvation to its members. Nor is joining a particular group a prerequisite for being saved.

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